Latest Updates:
Poll
Poll Question: Which move is stronger for Black versus the d-Pawn Specials?
bars   pie

1...Nf6    
  4 (13.3%)
1...d5    
  10 (33.3%)
They are both as good against the d-Pawn Specials    
  12 (40.0%)
I don't know / Blank vote    
  4 (13.3%)




Total votes: 30
« Created by: Marc Benford on: 06/12/15 at 10:08:36 »
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5 (Read 12682 times)
Sauron
Full Member
***
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 236
Location: Mordor
Joined: 01/09/03
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #18 - 01/16/16 at 21:26:40
Post Tools
1.-d5 is significantly better, as Trompowski is a serious opening.
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sauron
Full Member
***
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 236
Location: Mordor
Joined: 01/09/03
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #17 - 01/16/16 at 21:25:00
Post Tools
Gambit wrote on 10/31/15 at 06:06:19:
Oh really?!! The BDG, a joke?! I play it all the time and I defeat very strong players with it! In fact, I have opponents trying to weasel out of playing the Black side of the BDG!

Give me some lines that back up your claim that the BDG  is a "joke." Well?


1.d4 d5 2.e4 e6 or 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 e6.
And I am very, very happy Wink
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2443
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #16 - 01/16/16 at 17:31:20
Post Tools
Can I vote for 1...c5?  That's probably the best anti-d-Pawn-Specials move I can think of!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1383
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #15 - 11/11/15 at 06:32:44
Post Tools
I should respond to some comments here.

First, many 2700 players do not want to take chances with the BDG, not when they have all these solid lines to play. So, chalk up conservative play and a reluctance to experiment as two reasons why 2700 -rated players do not play the BDG.

Second, you talk about 5...g6 line in correspondence. Me, I prefer over-the-board chess, where the time limit is far less and computers are not allowed in the tournament room. So, that should up the odds for a honest game, head-to-head, without any computer assistance. Everyone knows computers are used in correspondence chess!

Third, I saw some under - 2700 GMs play the BDG. Check the databases. GMs Korneev, Blaaw, Tartakower all come to mind. There should be others.

Fourth, I am not surprised that high rated players avoid the fun with 4...e3.

Fifth, I regularly beat GMs and other titled players in blitz on the Internet. In regular tournaments, I win against titled players as well.

Sixth, there are many lines against 5...g6. These include 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 Qe1 Studier Attack; 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 h3!? , the Studier-Zilbermints Attack; 6 Bc4 Bg4 7 Bf4 with 8 Qd2, 9 000 and a Kingside attack.

  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
Bibs
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2099
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #14 - 11/02/15 at 13:30:00
Post Tools
Very sensible comments below, yes.

Versus a weaker white player, playing the BDG (and it's very likely they will be weaker), I am quite happy to let the white player feel triumphant, wronged and manly ("hah, he bottled it", "he fears my BDG, I am dead hard, I am"), knowing that I will be on familiar territory, playing normal chess, and not on an obsessive's home turf. The BDG-ite can revel in those cheap triumphs as the 0-1 duly arrives on the scoreboard.

I actually find the BDG quite interesting. I bought the Everyman book on it and have played it online in blitz. Sound? Yes, maybe, no ,maybe not, I don't know. A good practical weapon and it is near enough sound to work okay up to a fairly high level I'd say. Good luck to those who play it.

But don't get too perturbed if black doesn't steam down a hacky line you looked at for hundreds of hours. He doesn't have to, and a practical wily opponent would likely not. It's a board game, and both players at the board have ideas what they want to do. Often they do not coincide.

Best wishes to whites, to blacks, to all,
B
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gauss
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 54
Joined: 07/16/14
Gender: Male
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #13 - 11/01/15 at 19:55:18
Post Tools
The Albin is with black though, so it is different. I've looked a bit at the Albin, and I would be very surprised if black is objectively losing. You just get some complicated position that is favorable for white, but within reason. The BDG is the same: you get a complicated position where black is a little better. Most strong players don't want to worse with white right out of the opening.

Particularly when a strong player is playing against a patzer (no offense, I am in the same range), it is logical to not accept the BDG because you don't want to get a position that your opponent knows much more than you. I see it like this: if they accept the BDG, then they have a 15% chance of losing out of the opening and an 80% chance of winning otherwise: expect value of accepting is 0.8

If they decline, then they have maybe a 5% chance of losing out of the opening, and a 90% of winning otherwise: expect value of declining is 0.9.

If they were playing someone who was more similar to their strength, then the increased chance of winning if they get out of the opening would dominate the chance of losing in the opening, so they would accept.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 714
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #12 - 11/01/15 at 10:44:19
Post Tools
I have played it at blitz, semi-rapid, slow and corr. chess with good result (Iam at a 2150-2200 fide). Against GM I only had 2 occasion to play it in slow games, Korneev gave the pawn with ..e3 giving White back a very small advantage of the first move. So a 2600+ was afraid to accept it against me. A GM 2500 accepted it and I got a winning position on move 21 but I wanted to win too quickly and blundered. At semi-rapid I played it against GM Hamdouchi, he accepted the pawn and suffered a lot. I got a winning position but being low on time I took a draw repetition. The BDG is of course not the ultimate weapon but a bit like the Morra it can be very dangerous if accepted. 5..g6 is indeed one of the best weapon but Black has to know is stuff, and White has 2 main ways to play against it.

I know Caruana played it a lot on internet

I think the BDG is Superior that something like the Albin Coutner-Gambit, even if Morozevich used it to win against strongs GM.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gauss
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 54
Joined: 07/16/14
Gender: Male
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #11 - 11/01/15 at 01:51:44
Post Tools
I've never faced it. Looking through some correspondence games, it looks like 5...g6 does pretty well.
If the BDG was truly good then strong players would sometimes play it. In my database, only one 2600+ player has played the BDG against a title player (Gashimov-Karpov, world BLITZ 2009), and it is possible that that was actually from a Caro Kann move order. If strong players thought the BDG was good, then they would use it as a surprise weapon. They must think that their opponents can defuse it over the board, as I am sure that Kramnik (for example) doesn't have much prep for it.

I'll admit that it is fairly dangerous on the patzer level. I'm not sure that I would be OK with black against an extremely well prepared opponent. However, if someone is willing to put the work in, then they shouldn't have anything to fear.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 714
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #10 - 10/31/15 at 18:26:17
Post Tools
If it's a joke could you give us your recommandation against it? Maybe you are one of these 2700?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gauss
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 54
Joined: 07/16/14
Gender: Male
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #9 - 10/31/15 at 16:02:18
Post Tools
When is the last time someone over 2700 played the BDG in a slow game? Probably never.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1383
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #8 - 10/31/15 at 06:06:19
Post Tools
Oh really?!! The BDG, a joke?! I play it all the time and I defeat very strong players with it! In fact, I have opponents trying to weasel out of playing the Black side of the BDG!

Give me some lines that back up your claim that the BDG  is a "joke." Well?
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
CanadianClub
Senior Member
****
Offline


Greetings from Catalonia!

Posts: 352
Joined: 11/11/12
Gender: Male
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #7 - 06/13/15 at 12:07:52
Post Tools
1...e6 !!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gauss
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 54
Joined: 07/16/14
Gender: Male
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #6 - 06/12/15 at 16:56:15
Post Tools
I think that the Tromp, Torre, and maybe the Jobava attack are the only d-pawn specials that are both dangerous and not terrible.    They are the only specials that are played by superGMs somewhat regularly. I guess Kamsky plays the London. I did forget about the London when I was writing that post.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JohnG
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love spending time with
ChessPublishing...

Posts: 32
Location: USA
Joined: 05/18/14
Gender: Male
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #5 - 06/12/15 at 15:38:32
Post Tools
I agree with Tony that 1...Nf6 might be easier or as easy if Black is willing to play ...d6, since this requires London and Colle players to do the one thing they hate most: think. But if we assume that Black does not play g6 Indians then I would agree with gauss that 1...d5 is easier/stronger, though only in a very marginal sense of course.
  

"The move is the idea." -John Watson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1739
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: How to beat the d-Pawn Specials: 1...Nf6 or 1...d5
Reply #4 - 06/12/15 at 14:59:55
Post Tools
This is absurdly simplistic - yes you avoid some systems, but you also preclude the option of placing a pawn on d6. And if the Torre and Tromp aren't objectively any better than the other d-pawn specials, avoiding them isn't particularly relevant anyway when you're talking about an objectively "best" response.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo