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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Yurtaev Variation (Read 21524 times)
Bibs
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #27 - 03/25/21 at 23:56:53
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/24/21 at 22:23:34:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 03/23/21 at 17:17:34:
after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 O-O Bc5 a lot of my opponents play 6 Re1

GMTonyKosten wrote on 03/24/21 at 22:10:08:
I don't think there is much chance of this being seen in a serious game, though, as everyone plays 6 c3.

Have you tried 5...b5 ? It sounds like sometimes you will get a free piece after 6.Re1. Then after they figure that out, you can switch to 5...Bc5 and get a free tempo after 6.Bb3.


Sorry, I don’t follow.
What is the theoretical argument here?
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #26 - 03/24/21 at 22:23:34
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 03/23/21 at 17:17:34:
after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 O-O Bc5 a lot of my opponents play 6 Re1

GMTonyKosten wrote on 03/24/21 at 22:10:08:
I don't think there is much chance of this being seen in a serious game, though, as everyone plays 6 c3.

Have you tried 5...b5 ? It sounds like sometimes you will get a free piece after 6.Re1. Then after they figure that out, you can switch to 5...Bc5 and get a free tempo after 6.Bb3.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #25 - 03/24/21 at 22:10:08
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/24/21 at 14:20:37:
Although 9...h5 is playable, it doesn't seem to pose real problems for white. For example, after 17.Bd1 gxh3 18.gxh3 d5, 19.exd5, 19.h4, 19.a4, and 19.d4 are all a tiny bit better for white. (I'm only using a weak engine to double-check this, so caveat emptor.)

I suppose there is nothing wrong with the obvious alternative 9...b5 10 Bb3 Nf6 11 c3 Bb6 12 d4 Bb7, but in practice it seems Black has only played 9...Nxf2, which might also be playable, but must be more fun for White. I think I would prefer 9...h5 in a quick game as White can easily go wrong and it would look a bit scary with White's queenside undeveloped.
I don't think there is much chance of this being seen in a serious game, though, as everyone plays 6 c3.
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #24 - 03/24/21 at 14:20:37
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Bc5 6.Re1 Ng4 7.Re2 Nd4 8.Nxd4 Bxd4 9.h3 h5 10.c3 Nxf2 11.Rxf2 Bxf2+ 12.Kxf2 Qh4+ 13.Kg1 g5 (13...b5 is worse because of 14.Bb3 g5?! 15.Qf1 Rh7 16.Qf2) 14.Qe2 g4 15.Qf2 Qxf2+ 16.Kxf2 b5. Here 17.Bb3, 17.Bc2, and 17.Bd1 must be about the same. If there is a difference it will only be seen after further moves. Although 9...h5 is playable, it doesn't seem to pose real problems for white. For example, after 17.Bd1 gxh3 18.gxh3 d5, 19.exd5, 19.h4, 19.a4, and 19.d4 are all a tiny bit better for white. (I'm only using a weak engine to double-check this, so caveat emptor.) To be really effective, a surprise "weapon" ideally needs to leave white wondering if they have made a mistake already; or at least have a steep drop-off between the best and the second-best move.
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #23 - 03/24/21 at 06:38:30
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Isn't 17.Bc2 an improvement? If not, isn't 13...b5 14.Bc2 (14.Bb3 Qxe4) g5 more precise?
  

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GMTonyKosten
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #22 - 03/23/21 at 17:17:34
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Occasionally I play this Yurtaev line in blitz games, and after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 O-O Bc5 a lot of my opponents play 6 Re1 to which I reply 6...Ng4!? the point being that after 7 Re2 Nd4 8 Nxd4 Bxd4, should White play the obvious and thematic 9 c3?? he loses immediately to 9...Qh4 10 h3 Bxf2+ and either 11 Kh1 Qg3 12 hxg4 Qh4# or 11 Kf1 Nh2#!
So, the only decent move is  9 h3, but then I was thinking: what about 9...h5!? 10 c3 (10 hxg4? hxg4 must be winning, 11 g3 Qf6) 10... Nxf2! 11 Rxf2 Bxf2+ 12 Kxf2 Qh4+

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and now 13 Kg1 (13 Kf1? Rh6! and ...Rf6+) 13...g5 which looks playable, 14 Qe2 g4 15 Qf2 Qxf2+ 16 Kxf2 b5 17 Bd1 gxh3 18 gxh3 d5 being one possibility.
As far as I can see 11...h5 has never been played, is it any good?!

  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #21 - 07/27/19 at 21:03:28
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TN wrote on 09/25/17 at 08:17:35:
Berlin ftw.

Perhaps the Berlin is the best way to get a game of chess against the Spanish. At least top level practice would seem to suggest so.
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #20 - 09/25/17 at 08:17:35
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Berlin ftw.
  

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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #19 - 09/25/17 at 01:11:20
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The Yurtaev/New Archangel is way more complicated than playing ...b5 and ...Bc5 against 5.d3 or 5.Qe2. The Yurtaev line has a lot of forced variations that lead to draws or just extremely crazy positions where Black sacs a piece for a few pawns. I'd probably play the line if there was more room for creativity and you could just play "a game of chess," but from what I've seen you don't really get to do that. I'm still trying to find a line I really like as Black against the Ruy Lopez.
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #18 - 09/16/17 at 17:33:09
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Yeah 5 0-0 poses the greatest threat because c3 and d4 is still possible.
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #17 - 09/16/17 at 13:14:22
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Panczyk and Emms wrote an excellent book "Archangel and New Archangel" in 2000. It was ahead of it's time. The book contains information that I have yet to digest, so I can recommend it even now, 17 years later. It also covers the Moller variation. There are a maze of interesting lines.

Victor Mikhalevski wrote an excellent book on the Open Ruy Lopez. He covers white alternatives that avoid the Open variation, including 5d3 (two chapters) and 5Qe2 (one chapter). After those moves, he recommends 5...b5 6Bb3 Bc5!? Black has other answers, but these tend towards the Closed Ruy Lopez, which was not black's intended choice.

I really like the Open Ruy Lopez. Still, I have to ask myself the question, if I intend to answer 5d3 and 5Qe2 with ...b5 and ...Bc5, why not play the same way against 5 castles? Why not play the New Archangel/Yurtaev variation and have a universal system against these three popular 5th moves by white?

With black intending to play ...b5 and Bc5, the three lines, 50-0, 5d3 and 5Qe2, can transpose or go their separate ways. Is there an argument that one of white's 5th moves poses a greater threat to black's intended plan?
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #16 - 08/21/17 at 06:42:30
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If Svidler's series is a bit too detailed for your level (and it's true, the subsequent Karjakin-Svidler showed a practical issue with such sharp lines), I can recommend Adhiban's article in Yearbook 123.

Fwiw, I first read the story of the 'Yurtaev Variation' in a Forum contribution in an old Yearbook.
  

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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #15 - 08/16/17 at 19:57:36
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 08/16/17 at 19:19:55:
Is there a way to edit a post? I meant 7.d3 instead of 6.d3 and I meant to say "shuts" instead of the s-word. Shocked


I got what you meant Bobby  Smiley
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #14 - 08/16/17 at 19:19:55
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Is there a way to edit a post? I meant 7.d3 instead of 6.d3 and I meant to say "shuts" instead of the s-word. Shocked
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #13 - 08/15/17 at 08:05:28
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Especially with how nowadays you can seemingly make white play d3 with almost no effort at all Wink
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #12 - 08/15/17 at 05:42:56
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Keano wrote on 08/15/17 at 01:16:04:
This is all very interesting.

I am currently looking at the "old/normal" Archangel with ...Bb7

If I can understand the problems there hoping I can understand the advantages of ...Bc5 line


I think the only reason the original Archangel isn't played as often as the New/Neo/Tkachiev/Yurtaev Archangel line is 6.d3. I believe Black is fine against everything else. He's probably fine against 6.d3 too, it's just that most players seem to think the pawn on d3 shits out the B on b7.
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #11 - 08/15/17 at 01:16:04
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This is all very interesting.

I am currently looking at the "old/normal" Archangel with ...Bb7

If I can understand the problems there hoping I can understand the advantages of ...Bc5 line
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #10 - 08/14/17 at 19:12:55
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Great IsaVulpes, I appreciate the detailed post!
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #9 - 08/14/17 at 17:13:19
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I have it, and while the theory looks stocksolid, it does require you to have a ton of prior knowledge about the Spanish and probably even the Archangel.
It's not a complete repertoire (so you'll need to find a solution vs Exchange etc from elsewhere), and there is very little if anything about "general considerations".
Mostly just moves, and mostly cutting out where he sees equality - which I'm sure is correct, but if you aren't sure how to continue playing, that doesn't help too much.

Certainly ended up being too high-level for me; very hard to follow, and the arising positions are oftentimes nontrivial to play, even if you have some prior experience in the Spanish; the Bc5 DOES make everything feel quite different.

If you do know stuff about the Ruy, have spent your share of time understanding what the Bc5 changes in "normal, untesting" positions compared to the Be7, and are a stronger player than myself (not very difficult, admittedly), I'm certain the theory itself is state of the art, though.
Svidler is extremely thorough and accurate - eg one line he went over later was played just the same in the Carlsen-Karjakin match, and he called it "You might hold this, but you won't have any fun" - which also happened (he instead recommends a different variation).
He is perfectly honest throughout, and clearly states where he couldn't find 100% equality, something that even books on the Ruggeldurb-Dingdong-Countergambit-System frequently refuse to do.

But yeah, it's less his thoughts on the opening, and more his moves in the opening  Wink
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #8 - 08/11/17 at 22:26:12
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I think it's also called the New-Archangel; anyway I see that Peter Svidler has a series on Chess24 about this, but I'm old-fashioned enough to prefer an actual book.  Still, it's hard to beat Peter Svidler giving his thoughts on an opening, so I may pick it up.
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #7 - 08/11/17 at 20:22:55
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So, is this the same line that gets called the Neo-Archangel? As i dont play the Ruy Lopez as black or white, i get quite confused with some of these lines looking similar

I think Gawain Jones, the recent winner of the British has been playing this line (along with a game in the Modern Steinitz!)
  

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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #6 - 08/11/17 at 15:22:54
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Thanks for the story Tony (I realize that this is an old thread).  Any good books or DVDs, etc., on this particular variation?  It's appealed to me ever since seeing a brief article in Chess Life about it, maybe 1998 or so.
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #5 - 07/02/15 at 19:45:01
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I had read about this too, perhaps on Facebook or Chess24 - fully agree with the rename!  Wink
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #4 - 07/02/15 at 05:39:43
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I know all these nuances, of course.. Black has several ways to avoid entering these positions I mentioned.
I just felt obliged to pinpoint them.  Wink
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #3 - 07/01/15 at 22:55:29
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Hi Guys,
I really just wanted to repeat the story Vlad told me to see if there is agreement about renaming this particular line on ChessPublishing (at the moment we just call it 'Archangel', which is actually only the 6...Bb7 line that Malaniuk was playing while serving in the military in Archangelsk).

brabo wrote on 07/01/15 at 18:13:47:
black very often doesn't develop the bishop to b7


I agree, I personally prefer to play ...Bb7 only when White has played h3, and after I have put my other pieces on good squares.
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #2 - 07/01/15 at 18:13:47
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Vass, I think there are some important nuances which you miss.
In your bold mainline I believe black should instead of 11...0-0 play 11...g5 after which the sacrifice on g5 is nonsense.
Exactly because of this reason I play the line 10.a4 h6 11.Be3 which is indeed annoying for black.

However one of the main asset of the Neo-Archangel (that is the name which I put on the line) is that black very often doesn't develop the bishop to b7.
1 and only standard game of my own practice which shows this idea very well:

So black responds a4 with Rb8 as indicated already by Tony and makes sure no pin can happen after 0-0 (by timely introducing h6).
If white doesn't want to play the mainline of Tony then maybe 11.Na3 could be an interesting try.

Anyway I haven't met the line anymore since 2003 in a standard game so did little or no follow up of the theory.
  
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Re: The Yurtaev Variation
Reply #1 - 07/01/15 at 10:38:07
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Hi, Tony!
If you want to play OTB this variation in the future, please take notice of these variations and full correspondence chess games above! The analysis I made on this variation brought me to conclusion that there are two types of positions - one after Bc1-g5 h7-h6 Bg5-h4 g7-g5 Nf3xg5 and the other after 11. Be3 O-O 12. d5 - which are extremely hard to be defended by black. The overall conclusion of the old experts of this Spanish variation is that if white plays c2-c3 (and not d2-d3) and prolong it with d2-d4 pawn advances, the black bishop has to occupy the b7-square. Archangel, New Archangel, Yurtaev or not - all of these variations may lead you by transpositions to one of these positions. Right now, I play a couple of correspondence chess games as white, so I can't prolong the variations that I showed above, but both of these games lead to win for white. What is interesting, after Bg5 h6 Bh4 g5 Nxg5 even the best engines show full equality - 0.00 .. Well, maybe black can save this position, but only if played by the world correspondence chess champion.
I know well the difference between OTB and correspondence chess - I myself played OTB 20 years ago at master level.. But, still..  Smiley
  
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GMTonyKosten
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The Yurtaev Variation
07/01/15 at 00:10:03
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Last Saturday I played 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 0-0 b5 6 Bb3 Bc5 as Black on board 2 of a French 1/2 final cup match. Our board one was Vlad Tkachiev, and after we finished our games we were chatting and he asked me what name I used for this line, and so I said Archangel or New Archangel, although I thought it probably wasn't right.
Then he explained to me how the variation came about, how he was playing a tournament and sharing a room with Yurtaev (I suppose in 1994). Vlad didn't know what to play as Black and his room-mate suggested this 6...Bc5 line that he'd been analysing, so Vlad started playing it and made some good results. Yurtaev's (pre-computer) analysis was very deep, and for instance he had realised that 7 Nxe5 Nxe5 8 d4 can be easily answered by the (slightly illogical) 8...Bxd4.
At first they used it as a transpositional weapon to reach Archangel positions, but then one day Khalifman suggested answering 7 a4 with 7...Rb8 (instead of 7...Bb7) ready to sacrifice the b-pawn after 8 c3 d6 9 d4 Bb6 10 axb5 axb5 11 Na3 0-0 12 Nxb5 Bg4, and the modern line was born.




Anyway, Vlad told me that he might write one of his blogs on the birth of this line, but I thought I'd mention it here first, and maybe change its title in the Updates and ChessPub Guides. Undecided

I see this is hardly news for some members:

TN wrote on 06/21/15 at 06:29:04:
the Yurtaev Variation with 5...b5 6.Bb3 Bc5
Smiley
  
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