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Poll Question: After 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6, what move order should I choose?
bars   pie

3. Nc3 Bg7 4. g3 O-O 5. Bg2 d6 6. O-O    
  0 (0.0%)
3. Nc3 Bg7 4. g3 O-O 5. Bg2 d6 6. d4    
  0 (0.0%)
3. Nc3 Bg7 4. d4 O-O 5. g3 d6 6. Bg2    
  0 (0.0%)
3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 O-O 5. O-O d6 6. Nc3    
  2 (20.0%)
3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 O-O 5. O-O d6 6. d4    
  0 (0.0%)
3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 O-O 5. d4 d6 6. O-O    
  0 (0.0%)
3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 O-O 5. d4 d6 6. Nc3    
  1 (10.0%)
3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 O-O 5. Nc3 d6 6. O-O    
  0 (0.0%)
3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 O-O 5. Nc3 d6 6. d4    
  0 (0.0%)
3. d4 Bg7 4. Nc3 O-O 5. g3 d6 6. Bg2    
  0 (0.0%)
3. d4 Bg7 4. g3 O-O 5. Bg2 d6 6. O-O    
  0 (0.0%)
3. d4 Bg7 4. g3 O-O 5. Bg2 d6 6. Nc3    
  0 (0.0%)
You should have started 1. d4    
  4 (40.0%)
You should have started 1. c4    
  0 (0.0%)
No opinion / Blank vote    
  3 (30.0%)




Total votes: 10
« Created by: Marc Benford on: 07/12/15 at 07:11:36 »
Normal Topic 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose? (Read 5632 times)
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Re: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose?
Reply #9 - 07/13/15 at 06:36:31
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Marc Benford wrote on 07/12/15 at 22:50:14:
The only thing I don’t like is to be forced to play the Fianchetto Variation against the Benoni… Because just like I said earlier: I have read that the Fianchetto Variation of the Benoni is not very strong for White. White still has an advantage, but it’s smaller than his usual advantage.

I meant to possibly transpose into Avrukh-repertoire via 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6, to avoid Benoni, Benko etc.
  
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Re: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose?
Reply #8 - 07/12/15 at 23:17:33
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Marc Benford wrote on 07/12/15 at 22:50:14:
@huibui :
Also many Black players would like to play the Symmetrical English against 1. Nf3, but they can’t because the Sicilian Defense is not in their repertoire (1. Nf3 c5 2. e4 is a Sicilian).
And the Symmetrical English is more of a positional, solid, strategic and quiet opening. While the Sicilian is more of a tactical, sharp and aggressive opening. In other words, the Symmetrical English and the Sicilian have the exact opposite style of play, they fit to exactly opposite kind of players, so few Black players will be tempted to play both.


Well, I play both. And I think that is more common than players that open with 1. Nf3 and then all of a sudden changes to and 1.e4-opening after 1...c5 2. e4.

Regarding the thread, I think you have already decided what to play. Why ask everybody here? You get some benefits from 1. Nf3, and lose some compared to 1. d4, naturally... Anyway, in case you need some more material, maybe you should have a look at Lemos' Opening Repertoire: Fianchetto system from Everyman Chess as well.
  
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Re: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose?
Reply #7 - 07/12/15 at 22:50:14
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@huibui :

Actually I’m not really scared of the Budapest Gambit and the Albin Countergambit. Being able to prevent them is just a very small extra bonus of 1. Nf3, but it’s not the big reason that I would favor 1. Nf3 over 1. d4.

The biggest problem that I have with 1. d4 is 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6. And then I would have two choices:
- 3. g3 which prevents the Queen’s Indian Defense, but forces me to play the Fianchetto Variation against the Benoni. And I have read that the Fianchetto Variation of the Benoni is not very strong for White. White still has an advantage, but it’s smaller than his usual advantage. The Symmetrical English might even give White a bigger advantage than the Fianchetto Benoni.
- 3. Nf3 which allows White to play much stronger lines against the Benoni. But it does not prevent nor the Queen’s Indian nor the Bogo-Indian.

With 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 I get to avoid the Benoni, the Benko Gambit and the Bogo-Indian. At the price of allowing Black to play the Symmetrical English.

I have found that Black players have a well prepared defense against 1. d4. But against 1. Nf3 (and also against 1. c4) they just try to play the same defense that they play against 1. d4. And players who play the Benoni, Benko Gambit or Bogo-Indian find that they can’t play their pet defense against 1. Nf3.

Also many Black players would like to play the Symmetrical English against 1. Nf3, but they can’t because the Sicilian Defense is not in their repertoire (1. Nf3 c5 2. e4 is a Sicilian).
And the Symmetrical English is more of a positional, solid, strategic and quiet opening. While the Sicilian is more of a tactical, sharp and aggressive opening. In other words, the Symmetrical English and the Sicilian have the exact opposite style of play, they fit to exactly opposite kind of players, so few Black players will be tempted to play both.




@TD :
I bought “Grandmaster Repertoire – Boris Avrukh – 1. d4 – The Catalan – 1A” just one month ago.
I believe that this volume is the latest volume. 1B doesn’t seem to have been released yet.
The only thing I don’t like is to be forced to play the Fianchetto Variation against the Benoni… Because just like I said earlier: I have read that the Fianchetto Variation of the Benoni is not very strong for White. White still has an advantage, but it’s smaller than his usual advantage. The Symmetrical English might even give White a bigger advantage than the Fianchetto Benoni.




@emary :
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3. c3 e6 4.Bf4 seems pretty weak.
Against everything I adopt a setup with Nf3+d4+c4 in some order. Plus a Kingside fianchetto except against the Slav and the QGA. So playing the Pawn to c3 would not fit well at all with the rest of my repertoire.
And yes I know that 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3. c4 is a bad version of the Symmetrical English. So if I’m OK to play the Symmetrical English I would definitely start with 1. Nf3 and not with 1. d4.
If I play 1. d4 then it would be to play stronger lines, with 2. c4, and without shying away from entering into the Benoni.
  
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Re: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose?
Reply #6 - 07/12/15 at 13:40:00
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Hello,

what about 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 ?

and now
2...c5 3.c3 (after g6 you take c5) e6 4.Bf4
2...e6 3.Bf4

or
2...c5 3.c3 e6 4.e3
2...e6 3.e3


Not the most exciting stuff but much less work than the Symmetrical English which I think is a complex of different systems.

Albin and Schara-Hennig avoided;
Budapest, Blumenfeld, Benkoe, Benonis, Nimzo, Bogo, Queens-Indian avoided.

Btw:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c4 is a Symmetrical English but I doubt you like this version. After 3.d5 you should be prepared for 3...b5, 3...g6  and 3...e6.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 avoids the Bogo and the QID with Ba6 after 3...b6,
after 3...d5 you have the Catalan, but again you have to be prepared for the annoying 3...b5 recommended by Cox (Dealing with d4 deviations) and Avrukh.

After 1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 there is no need for 3.Nc3, for instance you can polster d4 with a timely c3. 

  
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Re: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose?
Reply #5 - 07/12/15 at 12:16:54
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Marc Benford wrote on 07/12/15 at 10:32:46:
I have the 3 books of Wojo’s Weapons. But they do not explain all the move orders.

Do you also have Avrukh's? You can make a good "fianchetto-repertoire" with these books.
  
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Re: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose?
Reply #4 - 07/12/15 at 12:12:40
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I don't think it's really one vs. seven - within the SE black has a lot of different setups, and for instance I would imagine that the hedgehog alone requires just as much preparation from white (if you want to play the critical Re1-lines, which is hard to avoid against some move-orders) as all of the Benoni-systems combined Shocked.

Some more points: The Budapest is really easy to play against imo. You can follow Avrukh or play 4.Bf4 or even the Nh3 line - neither of these options require a lot of preparation and they all pose problems to black. Also against the Albin there are several solid lines that offer chances for an advantage. Depending on the rest of your repertoire, you can prevent both of these gambits by playing 2.Nf3 and 3.c4 - I for one avoid the Albin, but allow the Budapest (as I want to avoid the QID by 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3).

The Bogo Indian and the Czech Benoni are very solid, but don't require much preparation, as there aren't a lot of forcing lines.

As for the Benko, the modern Benoni and the Snake: On the one hand it is hard to keep control of the game - on the other hand you get very interesting and challenging positions. I play g3-systems against all of these, and am quite happy with them.

All in all I think the question whether 1.d4 is harder to play than 1.Nf3 depends a lot on the lines you want to play in the SE. The critical lines in the hedgehog are very sharp, and there are at least 3 more setups for Black, each of which can lead to different play and has a lot of theory.

1...g6 probably isn't a real problem, for instance you could play 1.Nf3 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.d4, and answer 3...c5 by 4.e4 which leads to a Maroczy bind (although there Black can try to force you into a Benoni structure by delaying ...cxd4). I just wanted to point out that you can't force a GID-player into one of the critical anti GID lines without d4, like 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Qa4/cxd5.
  

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Re: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose?
Reply #3 - 07/12/15 at 10:32:46
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@Bibs :
I don’t see anything “unfair”: if someone doesn’t like my thread then that person is not forced to post in the thread - as simple as that.
I have the 3 books of Wojo’s Weapons. But they do not explain all the move orders.
I don’t understand what the problem is. Are you just saying that I shouldn’t ask my questions in this forum and that instead I should buy more opening books until I find one which answers my question? Opening books cost money you know, and I’m not an adult so I’m not the one paying for my books…
I’m not sure what you mean by “low” rating, the word “low” is only relative. But I have a rating of 1900.
And as for your suggestion of “choosing 1.e4 and playing through Morphy games” I’ll pass thank you.

________



@huibui :

Interesting answer. You’re making me doubt a little…

1. Nf3 allows Black to play the Symmetrical English.
1. d4 allows Black to play the Benko Gambit, the modern Benoni, the Czech Benoni, the Snake Benoni, the Budapest Gambit, the Albin Countergambit and the Bogo-Indian Defense.
Do you truly believe that it’s best to face all of these options than to face the Symmetrical English?
From a purely theoretical point of view, we could argue that the Symmetrical English gives White an advantage that is very slightly smaller than usual…
But from a practical point of view I think it’s completely obvious that it’s best to give Black one additional first-rate option over giving Black SEVEN additional second-rate options!

As for 1…g6, it’s true that this move slightly irritates me somewhat.
But even if I started with 1. d4 :
- Since I’m not a 1. e4 player I would not go into a Modern Defense 1. d4 g6 2. e4 Bg7 3. Nc3 even though White supposedly has a bigger than usual advantage.
- I cannot go into 1. d4 g6 2. e4 Bg7 3. c4 since 3…d6 4. Nc3 Nf6 would transpose into a non-fianchetto KID and I would be move-ordered out of my repertoire.
So for me I don’t think that there is any difference between 1.Nf3 g6 and 1. d4 g6.
  
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Re: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose?
Reply #2 - 07/12/15 at 08:09:32
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I voted for "1.d4" for the following reasons:

1.While 1.d4 can lead to various Benoni systems, 1.Nf3 can lead to various types of setups in the Symetrical English (SE), like the Maroczy bind, the hedgehog, double fianchetto systems or the ...c5+cxd4 line in the g3-KID. The Benoni systems are generally regarded to be somewhat risky and to offer white better chances of an advantage than the classical openings - which cannot be said about the SE, which has a very good theoretical reputation.

2. Playing 1.Nf3 you also have to find a solution against 1...g6. To stay in your Repertoire you should probably play a quick d4, as after for instance 2.c4 Bg7 3.g3 Black can play 3...e5 with a reversed Sicilian, or 3...c5 which is even more solid than the other lines in the SE. This means that you can't really profit from your moveorder against the GID, where lines without d4 are considered to be quite critical.

My impression is, that 1.Nf3 is a good weapon when it is played like it is proposed in the Khalifman books, with a classical KID and the anti GID in mind. When white wants to play fianchetto systems against KID and GID, he should start whith 1.d4.

Btw, 1.Nf3 also offers some additional options against the dutch (like a d3-e4 plan against the ...Bd6 stonewall), but imo this doesn't outweigh the disadvantage of having to play against the SE - also, White can go for Nh3-plans after 1.d4, which is difficult after 1.Nf3  Wink.
  

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Re: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose?
Reply #1 - 07/12/15 at 07:23:59
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*MOD HAT ON*
Respectfully Marc, what do you think first? I presume you have bought a few repertoire books to refer to. Which books do you have?
I think this site works best in discussing openings. And to discuss about stuff in opening books. It seems a little unfair when some participants expect members to do all the heavy lifting for them, and this is the impression you do give.
Additionally, noting that you described yourself as having a fairly low rating, I suggest that 1.e4 and playing through Morphy games, Reinfeld and Chernev books will take you further than worrying about move order nuances.

Marc Benford wrote on 07/12/15 at 07:11:36:
Hello.

I would like to play these three openings as White:
- The King’s Indian Defense Fianchetto Variation
- The Grünfeld Defense Fianchetto Variation
- The Symmetrical English Fianchetto Variation

But I don’t know what move order I should choose in order to enter in these openings.

I believe that I should start with 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4.
Starting with 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 is completely useless for White because it allows Black too many possibilities and it allows Black to grab the whole center for himself. It’s only a good idea if we intend to play the King’s Indian Attack, but I don’t want to play it so I can forget about 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3.
Starting with 1. d4 allows Black to play the Benko Gambit, the modern Benoni, the Czech Benoni, the Snake Benoni, the Budapest Gambit and the Albin Countergambit.
Starting with 1. c4 allows Black to play the Reversed Sicilian.
Starting with 1. d4 or 1. c4 may give White many extra options (like for example against the King’s Indian Defense: going into the Sämisch Variation, the Averbakh Variation and the Four Pawns Attack), but I will never use these extra options anyways. And since these extra options are useless to me, starting with 1. d4 or 1. c4 has only disadvantages with no advantages compared to starting with 1. Nf3.
Thus I think I should just start with 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 in order to avoid many of Black’s possibilities.

But after 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6, what move order should I choose next?

Could you explain exactly what Black options each move order avoids and allows?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

  
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1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 : what move order to choose?
07/12/15 at 07:11:36
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Hello.

I would like to play these three openings as White:
- The King’s Indian Defense Fianchetto Variation
- The Grünfeld Defense Fianchetto Variation
- The Symmetrical English Fianchetto Variation

But I don’t know what move order I should choose in order to enter in these openings.

I believe that I should start with 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4.
Starting with 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 is completely useless for White because it allows Black too many possibilities and it allows Black to grab the whole center for himself. It’s only a good idea if we intend to play the King’s Indian Attack, but I don’t want to play it so I can forget about 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3.
Starting with 1. d4 allows Black to play the Benko Gambit, the modern Benoni, the Czech Benoni, the Snake Benoni, the Budapest Gambit and the Albin Countergambit.
Starting with 1. c4 allows Black to play the Reversed Sicilian.
Starting with 1. d4 or 1. c4 may give White many extra options (like for example against the King’s Indian Defense: going into the Sämisch Variation, the Averbakh Variation and the Four Pawns Attack), but I will never use these extra options anyways. And since these extra options are useless to me, starting with 1. d4 or 1. c4 has only disadvantages with no advantages compared to starting with 1. Nf3.
Thus I think I should just start with 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 in order to avoid many of Black’s possibilities.

But after 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6, what move order should I choose next?

Could you explain exactly what Black options each move order avoids and allows?

Thanks in advance for your answers.
  
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