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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5 (Read 5740 times)
yolocounty
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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #11 - 08/06/15 at 03:53:15
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--Don't play like this:  2...Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. e4 ed? 5. e5.

I knew about that but still played into it once in Blitz.  I don't like committing to Benoni play without White committed to c2-c4, simply because you can get saddled with a possibly-equal but-weak-d5-square position, which can result in a lot of suffering.

I would think that what you play after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 is mostly about which lines you want to keep open against the challenging options from White, which is generally the lines with c2-c4.
  
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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #10 - 07/28/15 at 18:11:13
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I've had the thought that this might be a good way to play against London/Torre types:  1...c5 2. c3 e6 3. Nf3 Nc6.

A couple of thoughts about 1...c5 2. d5:

--if Black is aiming for a Schmid, it allows the possibility of f4 plus Bb5+ (analogous to the Flick-Knife Attack in the Modern Benoni).  I seem to recall Charlie "Sniper" Storey claiming that to be lost for Black, or something similarly apocalyptic.
--Don't play like this:  2...Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. e4 ed? 5. e5.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #9 - 07/28/15 at 17:41:41
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I like 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 for Black, because you immediately learn whether White is a "real" 1.d4-player (will play 3.d5), a slithery Catalan/English style player (such as 3.c4), or whether he's a London/Colle system player.  I like seeing players in that third category play 3.c3 or 3.e3, when I still haven't committed my d-pawn or a way of developing the King's Bishop yet. 

From this point of view, even better is 1...c5, though.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #8 - 07/28/15 at 12:08:29
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RdC wrote on 07/28/15 at 08:36:39:
So after 1. d4 c5, I played 2. d5 with the logic that if he played 2. .. Nf6, 3. Bg5.

Yes, that's why I said "more or less". I would personally be happy to reach a ...c5 Tromp as Black with White having lost the 3.Bxf6 option (and also 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 c5 3.Nc3!?, though that's considered less critical), but this is a matter of taste of course.

Back to the main topic 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5: It occured to me that the most "minimalist" approach for anyone who is not normally a Benoni or Benko player would be 3...b5 4.c4 Bb7!?, which is just one line of the Benko with a limited amount of theory. This would require learning and being comfortable with 3...b5 4.Bg5 as well.
  

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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #7 - 07/28/15 at 08:36:39
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Stigma wrote on 07/28/15 at 02:08:00:
There's even the move order 1.d4 c5, which cuts out the Trompowsky more or less,


In the days when I played the Tromp, I faced an opponent who was determined to avoid it, probably because he had lost to me in it on a previous occasion. So after 1. d4 c5, I played 2. d5 with the logic that if he played 2. .. Nf6, 3. Bg5. Thus he played 2. .. d6. The best option for staying in Tromp territory seemed to be 3. Nc3 as 3. ..Nf6 4. Bg5 Qb6 could transpose to the Vaganian Gambit. However 3. .. e6 was played, met by 4. e4 Nf6 which goes back into a Nc3 Benoni where Black has played a early e6.
  
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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #6 - 07/28/15 at 02:08:00
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There's even the move order 1.d4 c5, which cuts out the Trompowsky more or less, but allows the Morra Gambit (2.e4!?) - though not many 1.d4 players will go that way.

I think you should first of all decide which type of Benoni you're going to play if White just goes d5 and c4. At least consider the Benko Gambit if you haven't already. Two of the recent repertoire books on it also include lines against this "Pseudo-Benoni" - by Aveskulov and S. Kasparov. As does the one by N.V. Pedersen if I recall correctly. And if Nf3 is already in, you don't have to worry about sharp, declined Benko lines like 5.f3, 5.e3 and 5.Nc3. Though the accepted lines and the b6 lines, both critical, are still on the table (the latter only if Black plays either 3...b5 4.c4 g6 or 3...g6 4.c4 b5).

Another option is to specialize in the sharp Blumenfeld Gambit. You would then have to decide if 3.d5 e6 4.c4 b5 or 3.d5 b5 4.c4 e6 is the better move order; the former allows 4.Nc3 while the latter allows 4.Bg5 as "anti" or "pseudo" options.
  

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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #5 - 07/28/15 at 02:06:22
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I remember that Schneider/Erdelyi book, though the only thing I definitely recall it covering is the Schmid Benoni arising after 3...d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. e4 Bg7. 

Regarding that, these two threads each contain one game which I dare say is nice from Black's perspective.
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1435268597 (thanks LeeRoth)
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1381138577/5
  
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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #4 - 07/28/15 at 01:14:34
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Thanks for the info everyone.

I'm going to start playing this and see how it works. I did find a rare book on it called "Queen's Pawn Opening Pseudo-benoni: 1. D4 Nf6 2. Nf3 C5 3. D5" by Schneider and Erdelyi, though being a small book, published originally in Spanish in 1971, I don't know if it would be worth the high price.

I guess I'll just look at games where GMs have played this as Black and play through them solitaire. I know there are some games where Judit Polgar has played this. Is there anyone here who already plays this as Black? If so what has your experience been?
  
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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #3 - 07/27/15 at 18:36:43
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White may also play g3 against an early c5.

You need to be prepared if white doesnt play c4, as you may end up in a Pirc.
  

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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #2 - 07/27/15 at 00:23:32
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Basically 2...c5 can become various Benonis or various other things (including some "d-pawn specials," though it may indeed discomfit some players of such openings).  "Benoni" requires d5 by White.
  
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Re: Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
Reply #1 - 07/26/15 at 23:14:08
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AlienOctopus wrote on 07/26/15 at 22:49:13:
So I want to start playing it, but I have no idea what it is. I read it was a Benoni, but is it the Modern Benoni, Czech Benoni, or Old Benoni? 


That depends on whether White plays c4 or not. It is a problem with the move order, that White can play Nc3 with the c pawn still on c2.

It's one of those lines where you need some insight into White's likely third move. If it's reasonably trustworthy that it will be c4, you can play your normal e6 or g6 regardless. Equally if you think it will be Bf4, Bg5, c3 or e3, then playing 2. .. c5 has its merits.
  
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Meeting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 with 2...c5
07/26/15 at 22:49:13
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As Black, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 I become uneasy because I know one of those "attack" openings is probably coming, like the Torre, Colle, Colle-Zuckertort, Barry, Stonewall etc.

I saw that 2...c5 was scoring well, and also by playing it someone wouldn't need to learn a separate system for each different d4 attack opening. So I want to start playing it, but I have no idea what it is. I read it was a Benoni, but is it the Modern Benoni, Czech Benoni, or Old Benoni? And what transpositions if any could occur between the Benonis in this situation? Does anyone here play 2...c5 and if so, what has been your experience and can you recommend any sources of further information about this?
  
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