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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black? (Read 31621 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #17 - 08/03/15 at 22:03:54
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The variation that currently bothers me the most in the 12...a6 is on one of bragesjo's sites.  I may ask him if I can post analysis from the site as it's free and would benefit the discussion here (or maybe he'll see this and post it himself). 

But here's a link to the site:
https://openingtheory.wordpress.com/about/

Look for the Anand-Carlsen game that was a draw in this variation and you'll find a note to 15.Bxc4 regarding 15.Qc1!?   This queen move looks highly annoying.  Having said that White may have better tries.  I haven't looked into this variation much.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #16 - 08/03/15 at 18:51:11
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Brabo's line for White in the Chinese Dragon is the one discussed here http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1403103436/0

I don't say it's a big problem for Black, but I don't know yet which way of play is the best for Black to keep a true balance in this subline. It's something like slight advantage for White but Black should be ok with best play. I got Black in a corr. game where I managed to equalize and draw but I didn't like the game very much and maybe White could have put a little more problems to me.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #15 - 08/03/15 at 14:13:14
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Quote:
I'm really interested to know what's the problematic line in the Chinese Dragon you mentioned. Now I'm hoping that Carsten Hansen will cover the Chinese in his upcoming book, as he's a very good writer.

12...a6 is designed to be slow - to wait for White g4 push and then taking a pawn on the kingside and defending & counterattacking with the e5 knight as an important defender, because it wasn't traded on c4. In some lines where Black rook goes to h8, Black has an extra a6 move compared to 12...Re8 variation (CHOPIN has only one line analysed and comparing with the books I checked, it's not the most critical one). As I've never liked Re8 here or in the Soltis, I would rather analyse 12...a6 first (and it's the Carlsen Variation after all!). I don't know if I decide to do so but if I do I let you know if I succeded in finding equality or not.

As for Dragon "memoralization problem", I would say that Dragon lines are easier to remember than in many other variations (e. g. Najdorf) imo. There are many typical ideas and strikes to follow and play is very logical. White's tasks is not that easy too - in 9. Bc4 one must be prepared to play against Soltis, Topalov or Chinese, 10...Qa5 and others. It's not decided who makes the first error. If you're better prepared, you can beat the opponent rated well above you based on your home prep. When you're not, you can loose to one rated below. I think with playing the Dragon you take chances, risks a little but in the long run it should pay off, as you learn a lot above active & seeking initiative chess in general.
AJZ1985

I'll post the line that I can't find equality in the 12...a6 variation later tonight (I'm in Indiana and it's 10:12am).  It's given as a strong option for White in an online resource by one of the members here on chesspub.  I'm going to have to look it up to remember who.
  
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #14 - 08/03/15 at 08:36:04
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I have been playing the Najdorf for over 10 years and what happes now is that the little sideline moves like 6. h3 are getting very popular and you have to memorise everything in developments here. In addition the other lines like 6. Le2, 6. g3, 6. Le3 or 6. f3, 6. Lc4 all have a lot of theory themselves. Mentioning of course 6. Lg5 which is, in my opinion, starting to become beyond ridiculous in terms of preparation needed. It is much more than 10 years ago.

That is why I consider the Dragon. Lines to move 40 or whatever happen quite often in the Sicilian, but the Dragon at least it is basically fixed in the 9. Lc4 variation. Najdorf you do this for probably many of the 6th moves Smiley
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #13 - 08/03/15 at 07:57:03
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ArKheiN wrote on 08/03/15 at 05:04:11:
As a Dragon "expert" I would recommand either the Chinese Dragon + Soltis or Topalov + Soltis. The Chinese Dragon is my favourite but one of the rare line I don't like much for Black is the one given by Brabo in the other thread but it should be playable. I have analysed the 12.Kb1 line in the past mostly for White and I don't like Black. a6 seems too slow for me and Nc4 was insufficient according to the theory and practice but I don't know if there is an improvment for Black. Re8 I don't like much but according to a recent article on the chess website CHOPIN this line is ok for Black but I have not checked the analysis yet but I am interested to do soon because it could be a weapon more for Black as a complement of the Soltis. It is clear now that the Soltis should be the central game for Black' repertoire. It is not a bad idea to study both 2 or 3 complement I mentionned as I believe you can use any main opening for life but sxitching slightly with dubvariations depending of the opponent or the situation for example to avoid to be too predictable or playing against the opponent's preparation. The problem for the Dragon OTB is that it requires a lot of precise memorisation often for more than 40 moves just to survive while White just need one dangerous line to remember even if it's ok for Black with best play.


I'm really interested to know what's the problematic line in the Chinese Dragon you mentioned. Now I'm hoping that Carsten Hansen will cover the Chinese in his upcoming book, as he's a very good writer.

12...a6 is designed to be slow - to wait for White g4 push and then taking a pawn on the kingside and defending & counterattacking with the e5 knight as an important defender, because it wasn't traded on c4. In some lines where Black rook goes to h8, Black has an extra a6 move compared to 12...Re8 variation (CHOPIN has only one line analysed and comparing with the books I checked, it's not the most critical one). As I've never liked Re8 here or in the Soltis, I would rather analyse 12...a6 first (and it's the Carlsen Variation after all!). I don't know if I decide to do so but if I do I let you know if I succeded in finding equality or not.

As for Dragon "memoralization problem", I would say that Dragon lines are easier to remember than in many other variations (e. g. Najdorf) imo. There are many typical ideas and strikes to follow and play is very logical. White's tasks is not that easy too - in 9. Bc4 one must be prepared to play against Soltis, Topalov or Chinese, 10...Qa5 and others. It's not decided who makes the first error. If you're better prepared, you can beat the opponent rated well above you based on your home prep. When you're not, you can loose to one rated below. I think with playing the Dragon you take chances, risks a little but in the long run it should pay off, as you learn a lot above active & seeking initiative chess in general.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #12 - 08/03/15 at 05:04:11
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As a Dragon "expert" I would recommand either the Chinese Dragon + Soltis or Topalov + Soltis. The Chinese Dragon is my favourite but one of the rare line I don't like much for Black is the one given by Brabo in the other thread but it should be playable. I have analysed the 12.Kb1 line in the past mostly for White and I don't like Black. a6 seems too slow for me and Nc4 was insufficient according to the theory and practice but I don't know if there is an improvment for Black. Re8 I don't like much but according to a recent article on the chess website CHOPIN this line is ok for Black but I have not checked the analysis yet but I am interested to do soon because it could be a weapon more for Black as a complement of the Soltis. It is clear now that the Soltis should be the central game for Black' repertoire. It is not a bad idea to study both 2 or 3 complement I mentionned as I believe you can use any main opening for life but sxitching slightly with dubvariations depending of the opponent or the situation for example to avoid to be too predictable or playing against the opponent's preparation. The problem for the Dragon OTB is that it requires a lot of precise memorisation often for more than 40 moves just to survive while White just need one dangerous line to remember even if it's ok for Black with best play.
  
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AJZ
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #11 - 08/02/15 at 22:37:29
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gewgaw wrote on 08/02/15 at 22:04:28:
Glenn Snow wrote on 08/02/15 at 00:59:17:
AJZ wrote on 07/30/15 at 09:01:29:
In 12. Kb1...15. g5 line I've found something  a while ago. Can you post a line which seems to be hard for Black? I don't have Nielsen's DVDs, so I can't assess his recommendations.

I think DenVerdsligeRejsende you should check the Chinese variation too. I personally like it a lot and I hope that G. Jones books will cover it.


Here's some analysis on some of the troubles I think Black has after 15.g5.


Thanks for your lines.
Why first 16. ...Rc5 and then 17. ...Rc8 - why not 16. ...Rc8 immediately?

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2015.08.02"]
[Round "?"]
[White "alternatives on move 15"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B78"]
[Annotator "Snow,Microsoft"]
[PlyCount "33"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 b5
15. g5 Nh5 16. b3 Rc5 (16... Rc8 17. f4 (17. Ndxb5 Re8 18. Nd4) (17. Nde2 a5
18. Nd5 Be6) 17... b4 18. Nce2 e5 19. fxe5 dxe5 20. Nf5 Bxf5 21. exf5 gxf5) 17.
Nd5 *



Glenn, I think you nailed it - I can't find any improvement for Black after 15. g5!  Sad
Gewgaw, I don't see enough compensation after 16...Rc8 17. Ndxb5.
And after 16...b4 White has 17. Nd5 declining the Burnett exchange sacrifice, which is probably the main point of playing g5 before b3.

So for me, 12... Nc4 is not the way to fight against 12. Kb1 variation. I think we're left with Carlsen variation (12...a6) and 12...Re8. I don't know what's the problem with them as for now, because I switched to the Chinese Dragon a while ago.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #10 - 08/02/15 at 22:04:28
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/02/15 at 00:59:17:
AJZ wrote on 07/30/15 at 09:01:29:
In 12. Kb1...15. g5 line I've found something  a while ago. Can you post a line which seems to be hard for Black? I don't have Nielsen's DVDs, so I can't assess his recommendations.

I think DenVerdsligeRejsende you should check the Chinese variation too. I personally like it a lot and I hope that G. Jones books will cover it.


Here's some analysis on some of the troubles I think Black has after 15.g5.


Thanks for your lines.
Why first 16. ...Rc5 and then 17. ...Rc8 - why not 16. ...Rc8 immediately?

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2015.08.02"]
[Round "?"]
[White "alternatives on move 15"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B78"]
[Annotator "Snow,Microsoft"]
[PlyCount "33"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 b5
15. g5 Nh5 16. b3 Rc5 (16... Rc8 17. f4 (17. Ndxb5 Re8 18. Nd4) (17. Nde2 a5
18. Nd5 Be6) 17... b4 18. Nce2 e5 19. fxe5 dxe5 20. Nf5 Bxf5 21. exf5 gxf5) 17.
Nd5 *

  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Glenn Snow
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #9 - 08/02/15 at 00:59:17
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AJZ wrote on 07/30/15 at 09:01:29:
In 12. Kb1...15. g5 line I've found something  a while ago. Can you post a line which seems to be hard for Black? I don't have Nielsen's DVDs, so I can't assess his recommendations.

I think DenVerdsligeRejsende you should check the Chinese variation too. I personally like it a lot and I hope that G. Jones books will cover it.


Here's some analysis on some of the troubles I think Black has after 15.g5.
  

New_Database.pgn ( 1 KB | 244 Downloads )
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AJZ
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #8 - 07/30/15 at 09:01:29
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In 12. Kb1...15. g5 line I've found something  a while ago. Can you post a line which seems to be hard for Black? I don't have Nielsen's DVDs, so I can't assess his recommendations.

I think DenVerdsligeRejsende you should check the Chinese variation too. I personally like it a lot and I hope that G. Jones books will cover it.
  
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #7 - 07/29/15 at 18:44:19
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This is the exchange sac of 12...Sc4. 15. g5 would be the alternative to 15. b3.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #6 - 07/29/15 at 13:16:28
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I believe Glenn is referencing 12.Kb1 Nc4 13.Bxc4 Rxc4 14.g4 b5 15.g5, while the exchange sacrifice line everyone is referring to (sidenote - I have always called it the Burnett Variation, but I think Nielsen calls it the Stocek Variation) is 15.b3 b4!? 16.bxc4 bxc3 17.Qxc3 Qc7, etc.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #5 - 07/29/15 at 13:04:24
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Hi all,
Just a quick request. I am somewhat familiar as have played the dragon OTB and have the DVDs.
But without checking I am lost here re the moves there, perhaps others may be too. Glenn, Tony - could you perhaps provide the moves leading to 15.g5 so we can follow pls?
Thanks guys, much obliged if you can.
B
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #4 - 07/29/15 at 02:14:13
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 07/29/15 at 01:26:49:
There is a game in the DVD of Nielsen Greet-Jones, 2009 Torquay where Jones played 12...Sc4, with the 15. b3 b4 exchange sac variation. Whether he goes to recommend this in his upcoming book that I do not know. I looked at this sacrifice a bit and it looks interesting. Nielsen also recommends it in the DVD.


I have Nielsen's DVD's and like them quite a lot.  His improvements in the exchange sac variation are very interesting but I didn't look at them on the computer because I couldn't find anything close to equality in the 15.g5 variation.  To his credit, Nielsen covers this too but where he states Black has more compensation than is at first apparent (paraphrasing), I rather disagree.  It's still a decent practical try because maybe it would take a computer to prove it but if someone has prepared the line then I think you're lost or close to it.  This is essentially what I wrote in the thread about Jone's upcoming Dragon books in that thread.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #3 - 07/29/15 at 01:26:49
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There is a game in the DVD of Nielsen Greet-Jones, 2009 Torquay where Jones played 12...Sc4, with the 15. b3 b4 exchange sac variation. Whether he goes to recommend this in his upcoming book that I do not know. I looked at this sacrifice a bit and it looks interesting. Nielsen also recommends it in the DVD.
  
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