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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black? (Read 30380 times)
DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #32 - 08/06/15 at 22:03:17
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gewgaw wrote on 08/06/15 at 16:38:54:
When I read your comment a question occurred to me: in which shape is the sicilian in general:
- classical: under pressure in the 6.Bg5 line - Rauser-attack for many years
- dragon: under pressure in many lines after 9.000, 9.Bc4 and even 9.g4 Be6 10.Nxe6
- scheveningen: under pressure after 6.g4 and even in the najdorf way 5. ...a6, 6. ...e6 the pressure increases, e.g. Wei Yi - Bruzon (?)
- taimanov with 5. ...Qc7 - afaik, the only sicilian in a good shape, I've played it for years and it still works fine
- najdorf: I was always eager to play it, but simply too much theory for an amateur like me, probably in good shape, too.
- sveshnikov: white found his way to play for just two results in the line 9.Nd5 10.Bxf6


If this is so, I must be doing something wrong, because I have been demolished as White in the Open Sicilians when I played 1. e4. Actually last time I played against the Dragon as White I was lost by move 22-23. Quite often I do not last more than 25 moves, so what is this about Black being under pressure in the Sicilian that you speak of? Smiley

But the Dragon seems like Black is fine I really think so. Same with basically all of the Sicilians. I am looking towards Jones book soon as this looks like the best way to get me into the Dragon.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #31 - 08/06/15 at 19:56:32
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The Dragon seems under pressure, because it's very well researched and has many tactical play that computers are able to check in deep these days, so the path to equality is thus really narrow.

It will be interesting to see how GM Negi puts a pressure on Kalashnikov, Tajmanov, Kan & other less researched lines putting them under his microscope that nobody ever used when writing an opening book.

The Dragon and some other lines (most probably including Accelarated and Hyper-Accelerated Dragons) that we don't know will be examined in the upcoming Sicilian II QC book (release date: September 2015). According to publisher there will be one more book on the Sicilian for White by the author.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #30 - 08/06/15 at 18:09:49
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Quote:
Kalashnikov - Still awesome.


Well indeed. It wins.  Cheesy

But also, just what's wrong with the Kan?
  
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TonyRo
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #29 - 08/06/15 at 17:10:21
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Kalashnikov - Still awesome.  Cheesy Wink Grin
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #28 - 08/06/15 at 16:38:54
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 08/06/15 at 02:24:52:
Well I played before the Najdorf, Taimanow, and Kan. I do not study very much on the Kan because it is easy to update compared to the Najdorf. Najdorf I wanted to quit and switch it with the Dragon. This means I would play Taimanow, Dragon, and Kan. I was analysing my file on 6. Lg5 Sbd7 that I made over one year ago, some stuff playing around with Stockfisk and Houdini til move 55 trying to see if the rook endgame is equal. Then I wondered if this is even worth it because if I play the Najdorf someone will play 6. h3 and know at least 10 times as much there instead of 6. Lg5.

In my experience the Najdorf now til days seems like at least 20x more theory than the Dragon. I bet that 6. Lg5 takes up more theory than the entire Dragon Cheesy


When I read your comment a question occurred to me: in which shape is the sicilian in general:
- classical: under pressure in the 6.Bg5 line - Rauser-attack for many years
- dragon: under pressure in many lines after 9.000, 9.Bc4 and even 9.g4 Be6 10.Nxe6
- scheveningen: under pressure after 6.g4 and even in the najdorf way 5. ...a6, 6. ...e6 the pressure increases, e.g. Wei Yi - Bruzon (?)
- taimanov with 5. ...Qc7 - afaik, the only sicilian in a good shape, I've played it for years and it still works fine
- najdorf: I was always eager to play it, but simply too much theory for an amateur like me, probably in good shape, too.
- sveshnikov: white found his way to play for just two results in the line 9.Nd5 10.Bxf6
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #27 - 08/06/15 at 09:44:17
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A friend of mine plays the dragon since 40+ years on a lower level than you. He always said there are lines under pressure and then someone repairs them. So he has always a 2nd line as backup. Maybe that's part of the work to do.
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #26 - 08/06/15 at 02:24:52
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Well I played before the Najdorf, Taimanow, and Kan. I do not study very much on the Kan because it is easy to update compared to the Najdorf. Najdorf I wanted to quit and switch it with the Dragon. This means I would play Taimanow, Dragon, and Kan. I was analysing my file on 6. Lg5 Sbd7 that I made over one year ago, some stuff playing around with Stockfisk and Houdini til move 55 trying to see if the rook endgame is equal. Then I wondered if this is even worth it because if I play the Najdorf someone will play 6. h3 and know at least 10 times as much there instead of 6. Lg5.

In my experience the Najdorf now til days seems like at least 20x more theory than the Dragon. I bet that 6. Lg5 takes up more theory than the entire Dragon Cheesy
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #25 - 08/06/15 at 01:35:14
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As AJZ1985 and bragesjo have pointed out, learning the Chinese is starting to not seem worth the trouble.  Apparently GM Jones is of the same opinion as his new books on the Dragon are not going to cover it.  (As I mentioned in another thread, the excerpts with the table of contents are up at the Quality Chess website.)  He's gone for the Topalov and Soltis as the main variations with the Burnett as an alternative to the Topalov.  If I remember correctly, he only spent 5 pages on it so I'm not too hopeful that he's resurrected 15.g5 (I meant find something playable for Black after 15.g5) although I hope I'm wrong. 

I like the Dragon in principle but I'm not sure I want to study enough to play such a narrow repertoire.  That's an advantage in a way but also makes one a target.  I suppose one could mix it up with another Sicilian variation.
« Last Edit: 08/06/15 at 14:15:14 by Glenn Snow »  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #24 - 08/05/15 at 15:04:41
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Hello.

Maybe there is need for an all encompassing thread on the Chinese dragon. For example "Chinese Dragon analysis and critical lines" (or whatever). I think it could grow quite nicely and other threads might be spared a lot of mostly non-topical Chinese dragon discussion.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #23 - 08/05/15 at 13:24:53
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When the Chinese variation where new I won several nice games with it.
I even crusched a FM in a team match in Swedish Superettan (division diretctly bellow Elite) since I knew theory one move longer.

Unfortunnaly during the years white players begun to play better lines and also how to defend better by Ka1 and Rb1 idea in some positions.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #22 - 08/05/15 at 12:25:35
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/04/15 at 22:01:18:
This thread is making me look more seriously at the Chinese Dragon.  I'm several years behind on it now but it's nice to know there's still no clear cut refutation.


After spending some time analyzing the Chinese Dragon I haven't found any refutation too, but...

12. Bh6 line with a positional 14. Nd5 (after 13...b5) or a 14. Ndb5 (after 13...e5) gives White slight but stable advantage. Black's counterplay on the queenside is very limited. There is some play in the centre for Black but White has it under control.

So I'm asking myself a  question, why should I play the Chinese when in the main line Topalov variation (13. Nd5), where there is also the Dragon bishop absent and the play is on both flanks, Black has better counterplay based on a bad bishop on b3 and often exposed White king. I think that in mentioned positions in the Chinese the knight on a5 is placed not so good: it's blocking a7 pawn and if traded on b3, White has good shield against Black attacks; when the knight goes to c4 it is captured and the b-file seems not enough to compensate White's domination on the kingside and in the center.
The counterplay against the white bishop on b3 by pushing a & b pawns with knights traded on d4 is a lot easier for Black to achieve and gives them some reasonable initiative. Those positions in the Topalov are respected by the most recent Dragon sources: Vigorito's excellent theoretical update and even Pavlovic analysis that are done in the Cutting edge mostly from White side perspective.

I started playing the Chinese Dragon, because I was thrilled to sacrifice the pawn after "normal" 10. 0-0-0 Rb8 11. h4 b5!, but since that time White has found better way to combat against Black plans, taking the whole excitement with calm 11. Bb3 - 12. Bh6 - Nd5 sequence that is harmless in 10...Rc8 or 10...Nxd4 variations.

Having said that, I think that the Chinese Dragon is still playable alternative and White must be well prepared to mantain the initiative. If well prepared White is going to push with kingside and center play without serious risks on the queenside. It may be not enough for victory but White has most the of the fun on his side.

That's why I decide to move on. I'm ready to check the Carlsen variation now, to find out if it is any real alternative to the Topalov line. Thank you for finding those links to the existing analysis of 15. Qc1 and the main lines. When I find the road to equality for Black in the Carlsen line, I will share my findings with you.


  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #21 - 08/04/15 at 22:01:18
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This thread is making me look more seriously at the Chinese Dragon.  I'm several years behind on it now but it's nice to know there's still no clear cut refutation.

Regarding 15.Qc1, here's another thread at chesspub on it:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1340448557
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #20 - 08/04/15 at 19:13:32
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Glenn and ArKheiN, thank you for the theory update. I will check the Chinese first as it is in my repertoire and share the results. I must admit that I didn't know both lines: 14. Ndb5 in the Chinese and 15. Qc1 in the Carlsen line. My break from chess was too long I suppose and some important changes happened.

I'm checking 13...b5 line in the Chinese (after 10. 0-0-0 Rb8 11. Bb3 Na5 12. Bh6 Bxh6 13. Qxh6), as I wasn't able to find satisfactory continuation after: 13...e5 14. Ndb5! Bxb5 15. Nxb5 Nxb3+ 16. axb3 Qa5 17. Na3 - White has kingside play where there are black squares holes, whilst Black is blocked on the queenside; d5 push weakens e5 pawn. White has definitely an initiative and seems to have slightly better chances as Black's counterplay is weak (stable +/=)
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #19 - 08/04/15 at 10:36:31
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bragesjo wrote on 08/04/15 at 08:35:12:
This link is not to one of my sites. I used to have Dragon site with several 100 of my own games but the free server I used sqreeved things up during server upgrade so it stopped to work and they failed to fix it so I killed my account there.


Thank you bragesjo for pointing this out.  I should have checked this better.  I see that he does link to one of your previous sites (probably the one you were referring to).  It looks like the site belongs to Jason Juett (he's listed as the annotator) and has posted here as CapaTal.

He seems to have abandoned the project but what he has done is excellent.  I think I've found a mistake in one of his variations but I'll post a different thread for that some day.

Edit:  And he's already posted the variation (game) here at chesspub!  http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1265511849/6#6

I'd still download the free file to see his analysis of various tries for Black.  The best I found is almost equality but in a position where Black is just fairly solid playing for the draw essentially.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #18 - 08/04/15 at 08:35:12
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This link is not to one of my sites. I used to have Dragon site with several 100 of my own games but the free server I used sqreeved things up during server upgrade so it stopped to work and they failed to fix it so I killed my account there.
  
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