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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black? (Read 50340 times)
XChess1971
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #47 - 08/13/16 at 23:32:38
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I picked up Carsten Hansen book. And I feel disappointed. It is more like a book that shows you the plans. But it looks like if it is not up to date. I do not understand why it says "move by move". And it doesn't consider all of the moves. In the Burnett it doesn't touch the critical lines cited here.
  
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CarriedbyGg
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #46 - 08/11/16 at 09:26:40
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I analysed 16. Nd5 together with some friends on Tuesday. It is definitely an interesting try:



And even this rook ending is not easy at all for Black. Seems like a practical way to meet this, as Nd5 is, for example, only a little sideline by Jones.
The deviations from the mainline, like 17. ... Rc3 and 18. ... fxe6 look more interesting to me and are mentioned by Peter Heine Nielsen.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #45 - 08/11/16 at 08:05:11
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CarriedbyGg wrote on 08/09/16 at 08:50:47:
It looks so wild that the very strong theoretican Parimarjan Negi decides to avoid it. His recommendation however doesn't look all that intimidating. When playing against someone who I knew is booked up with Negi I would go for the Burnett rather than the Topalov variation.


I think Negi chooses lines where White has some attack and initiative and avoids positions with Black initiative for some material - just check Negi's comment to 15. b3 in the book.
That's why Burnett/Declined Burnett were declined - here for the pawn Black has some compensation and White has no attack on the kingside, which is unusual in the Dragon.

Currently I'm checking Burnett Declined after 
15.  g5 Nh5 16.  b3 b4 17.  Nd5  Rc8 18.  Ne2  f5  (18...  a5? 19. Bb6 strong +/- ) and I have no clear conclusions yet. I will let you know about my findings.
  
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CarriedbyGg
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #44 - 08/09/16 at 08:50:47
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It looks so wild that the very strong theoretican Parimarjan Negi decides to avoid it. His recommendation however doesn't look all that intimidating. When playing against someone who I knew is booked up with Negi I would go for the Burnett rather than the Topalov variation.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #43 - 08/08/16 at 23:09:42
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That looks quite interesting CarriedbyGg.  It was the move 17.Nd5 that I thought would give White an easy advantage but that doesn't look at all clear.  Since this was all posted, I had thought someone had found a strong line for White in the Burnett but hopefully I'm mistaken.  (Of course the whole line is wild.)
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #42 - 08/08/16 at 20:07:45
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I'm sorry to dig up this old thread, but what exactly is the problem in the so called "declined burnett"? 

i'm referring to the variations after 15.g5 Nh5 16.b3 that are examined in this thread and it seems that some people are frightened of it! I would respond 16. ... b4 and either go into a Burnett after 17. bxc bxc 18. Qxc3 Qc7 or play the following:




Note from moderator for those who don't understand German:

"bei chesspub haben manche Angst vor' means

"at chesspub many are afraid of"
« Last Edit: 08/10/16 at 09:49:31 by MNb »  
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donphille
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #41 - 09/05/15 at 11:31:58
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Hello bibs and gewgaw, thank you for your answers and advices!

Indeed I meant the following line:

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "28"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 Qb8 *

I assume you have access to the analysis by GM Chris Ward. In his annotations he says, that despite the fact black is missing an exchange and has not jetted whites "extra" h-pawn (as in many Lines from the "Soltis-Variation"), the resulting position is kind of a fortress:

[Event "Politiken Cup 22nd"]
[Site "Copenhagen"]
[Date "2000.07.21"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Mortensen, Erling"]
[Black "Mikhalevski, Victor"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B78"]
[WhiteElo "2438"]
[BlackElo "2532"]
[PlyCount "123"]
[EventDate "2000.07.17"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "11"]
[EventCountry "DEN"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2000.09.14"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 Qb8
15. h4 Rfc8 16. h5 Rxc3 17. bxc3 Qc7 18. hxg6 fxg6 19. Nb3 Qxc3 20. Qxc3 Rxc3
21. Rd3 Rc8 22. Bxa7 Bb5 23. Rd2 Nd7 24. Bd4 Ne5 25. Rf2 Rf8 26. Rh3 Bd7 27.
Rg3 h6 28. c3 Be6 29. Nd2 Rc8 30. Rf1 g5 31. Rg2 b5 32. Rh2 Ra8 33. Nb3 Bc4 34.
Rff2 Kh7 35. Rh3 Kg6 36. Rfh2 Bd3+ 37. Ka1 Rf8 38. Nd2 Rc8 39. a3 Bc2 40. Kb2
Bd1 41. Kc1 Ba4 42. Kb1 Rf8 43. Rh1 Rc8 44. Ka2 Nd3 45. Bxg7 Kxg7 46. Nb1 Nf2
47. Rxh6 Nxh1 48. Rxh1 Bc2 49. Kb2 Bxb1 50. Rxb1 Kf6 51. Rd1 Rc5 52. Rh1 Ke5
53. Rh7 Kf4 54. Rf7+ Ke3 55. Kc2 Rc4 56. Rf5 e5 57. Rf6 Ra4 58. Kb2 Rc4 59. Kb3
Ke2 60. Kc2 Ra4 61. Kb2 Rc4 62. Kc2 1/2-1/2



  
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gewgaw
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #40 - 09/04/15 at 23:47:11
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donphille wrote on 09/04/15 at 06:58:10:
Hi Folks, I am new here and I like to add my point of view. Of course I have not read the entire threads to the "Burnett-Variation" etc. But I think too, that 15.g5 (!) and only than 16.b3 actually is really a pain in the (black´s) ass. I saw a poll here about the lines and I would give 14...Qb8!? a deal of investigation, as many commentated games only give this move as "!?" and the games I am reffering to are by GM Mikhalevsky. Of course in all repertoires there is a particular line one does not like and here one has to suffer too objectively, but hey, thats in other positions also the case Undecided 

I am also very keen of the books by G. Jones, as he prefers the Topalov. Recently he lost with it against GM Kravchik and later Jones tweeted, that he had forgotten hos book recomandatian.

To tell the truth, th eTopalov is more or less a pawn sacrifice and many many pieces arr traded as well, so actually im afraid black lacks sufficent counterplay.

I like to know your thoughts about the Move 14...Qb8 and the Topalov variation in general.

Thank you in advance!


14. ...Qb8 - do you mean this move order?

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 Qb8
15. h4 Rfc8 16. h5 Rxc3 17. bxc3 Qc7 18. hxg6 hxg6 19. Qh2 (19. Bh6 Qxc3 20.
Bxg7 Qxd2 21. Rxd2 Kxg7 22. Kb2 Rc5 (22... Nh7 23. Rdh2 Ng5 24. f4 e5 25. fxg5
exd4 26. Rh7+ Kf8 27. Rh8+ Ke7 28. Rxc8 Bxc8 29. Rd1 Bxg4 30. Rxd4) 23. Nb3 Rc7
24. c3) 19... Qxc3 20. Rd3 Qxd3 (20... Qb4+ 21. Rb3 Qc4 22. Rxb7 Bxg4 23. fxg4
Nxe4 24. Qh7+ Kf8 25. Rb2 Bf6 26. g5 Be5 27. Qh4) *

  
The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #39 - 09/04/15 at 12:45:03
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Hi donphile, a hearty welcome to the fray! Smiley

To help people here, and this applies to others hereabouts too, could you perhaps include the preceding moves please? I know it is a bit of a pain, but it will increase the likelihood of getting replies, as more people will be following more clearly. 
As an example, I am fairly familiar, but cannot quite place in my head where the Qb8 fits in.

Thanks!

All the best,
B
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #38 - 09/04/15 at 06:58:10
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Hi Folks, I am new here and I like to add my point of view. Of course I have not read the entire threads to the "Burnett-Variation" etc. But I think too, that 15.g5 (!) and only than 16.b3 actually is really a pain in the (black´s) ass. I saw a poll here about the lines and I would give 14...Qb8!? a deal of investigation, as many commentated games only give this move as "!?" and the games I am reffering to are by GM Mikhalevsky. Of course in all repertoires there is a particular line one does not like and here one has to suffer too objectively, but hey, thats in other positions also the case Undecided 

I am also very keen of the books by G. Jones, as he prefers the Topalov. Recently he lost with it against GM Kravchik and later Jones tweeted, that he had forgotten hos book recomandatian.

To tell the truth, th eTopalov is more or less a pawn sacrifice and many many pieces arr traded as well, so actually im afraid black lacks sufficent counterplay.

I like to know your thoughts about the Move 14...Qb8 and the Topalov variation in general.

Thank you in advance!
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #37 - 08/15/15 at 19:45:08
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After spending some time analyzing 12. Kb1 a6 and 12. Kb1 Re8 I've come to a quite obvious conclusion that in the Soltis variation there is no place for such moves like ...a6 and ...Re8 (I found no improvements in the main lines). I said "Soltis", because White plays 13. h4 and Black replies 13...h5 and we reach a position from the Soltis after 12. h4 h5 13. Kb1 when Black instead of a critical 13...Nc4! played 13...a6 or 13...Re8.

My conclusion: it seems that 12...a6 & 12...Re8 against 12. Kb1 line are close to +/-, the same as 12...Nc4 and declined Burnett with 15. g5! & 16. b3. That's why after 10. 0-0-0 it's better to try the Chinese Dragon (10...Rb8) instead where in positional lines white has only small advantage. However, from a theoretical point of view the best solution to 9. Bc4 & 10.0-0-0 is probably 10...Nxd4 - the Topalov variation. 
Let's wait and see what Mr Jones has to say about the Topalov line and how Mr Negi will approach it (I bet he will cover 9. Bc4 Dragon but maybe 10. h4 move order!?)
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #36 - 08/07/15 at 10:31:08
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MartinC wrote on 08/07/15 at 08:45:39:
AJWZ wrote on 08/06/15 at 19:56:32:
The Dragon seems under pressure, because it's very well researched and has many tactical play that computers are able to check in deep these days, so the path to equality is thus really narrow.


No, there's more to it than that Smiley The Dragon always has been dependent on very narrow tactical lines, whereas there's some openings which are clearly sound in all sorts of ways and have dozens of playable side/main lines.


Of course with the Dragon the path to an attempted White  advantage is narrow as well.  Only Yugoslav lines are truly threatening and there is a narrow path within within those variations as well.
  
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MartinC
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #35 - 08/07/15 at 08:45:39
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AJWZ wrote on 08/06/15 at 19:56:32:
The Dragon seems under pressure, because it's very well researched and has many tactical play that computers are able to check in deep these days, so the path to equality is thus really narrow.


No, there's more to it than that Smiley The Dragon always has been dependent on very narrow tactical lines, whereas there's some openings which are clearly sound in all sorts of ways and have dozens of playable side/main lines.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #34 - 08/07/15 at 07:58:17
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Quote:
... as far as I can tell, the Kan is not too nice to play against the line with c4 and Qd3, as played by e.g. Carlsen against Anand in their latest match.


I'd never reach this since I'd go 6 ...Qc7! There's a recent game in this line annotated on ChessPublishing ...
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #33 - 08/06/15 at 22:20:03
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/15 at 18:09:49:
Quote:
Kalashnikov - Still awesome.


Well indeed. It wins.  Cheesy

But also, just what's wrong with the Kan?


Lol. Well, as far as I can tell, the Kan is not too nice to play against the line with c4 and Qd3, as played by e.g. Carlsen against Anand in their latest match.
  
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