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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black? (Read 26996 times)
XChess1971
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #47 - 08/13/16 at 23:32:38
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I picked up Carsten Hansen book. And I feel disappointed. It is more like a book that shows you the plans. But it looks like if it is not up to date. I do not understand why it says "move by move". And it doesn't consider all of the moves. In the Burnett it doesn't touch the critical lines cited here.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #46 - 08/11/16 at 09:26:40
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I analysed 16. Nd5 together with some friends on Tuesday. It is definitely an interesting try:



And even this rook ending is not easy at all for Black. Seems like a practical way to meet this, as Nd5 is, for example, only a little sideline by Jones.
The deviations from the mainline, like 17. ... Rc3 and 18. ... fxe6 look more interesting to me and are mentioned by Peter Heine Nielsen.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #45 - 08/11/16 at 08:05:11
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CarriedbyGg wrote on 08/09/16 at 08:50:47:
It looks so wild that the very strong theoretican Parimarjan Negi decides to avoid it. His recommendation however doesn't look all that intimidating. When playing against someone who I knew is booked up with Negi I would go for the Burnett rather than the Topalov variation.


I think Negi chooses lines where White has some attack and initiative and avoids positions with Black initiative for some material - just check Negi's comment to 15. b3 in the book.
That's why Burnett/Declined Burnett were declined - here for the pawn Black has some compensation and White has no attack on the kingside, which is unusual in the Dragon.

Currently I'm checking Burnett Declined after
15.  g5 Nh5 16.  b3 b4 17.  Nd5  Rc8 18.  Ne2  f5  (18...  a5? 19. Bb6 strong +/- ) and I have no clear conclusions yet. I will let you know about my findings.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #44 - 08/09/16 at 08:50:47
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It looks so wild that the very strong theoretican Parimarjan Negi decides to avoid it. His recommendation however doesn't look all that intimidating. When playing against someone who I knew is booked up with Negi I would go for the Burnett rather than the Topalov variation.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #43 - 08/08/16 at 23:09:42
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That looks quite interesting CarriedbyGg.  It was the move 17.Nd5 that I thought would give White an easy advantage but that doesn't look at all clear.  Since this was all posted, I had thought someone had found a strong line for White in the Burnett but hopefully I'm mistaken.  (Of course the whole line is wild.)
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #42 - 08/08/16 at 20:07:45
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I'm sorry to dig up this old thread, but what exactly is the problem in the so called "declined burnett"?

i'm referring to the variations after 15.g5 Nh5 16.b3 that are examined in this thread and it seems that some people are frightened of it! I would respond 16. ... b4 and either go into a Burnett after 17. bxc bxc 18. Qxc3 Qc7 or play the following:




Note from moderator for those who don't understand German:

"bei chesspub haben manche Angst vor' means

"at chesspub many are afraid of"
« Last Edit: 08/10/16 at 09:49:31 by MNb »  
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donphille
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #41 - 09/05/15 at 11:31:58
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Hello bibs and gewgaw, thank you for your answers and advices!

Indeed I meant the following line:

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "28"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 Qb8 *

I assume you have access to the analysis by GM Chris Ward. In his annotations he says, that despite the fact black is missing an exchange and has not jetted whites "extra" h-pawn (as in many Lines from the "Soltis-Variation"), the resulting position is kind of a fortress:

[Event "Politiken Cup 22nd"]
[Site "Copenhagen"]
[Date "2000.07.21"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Mortensen, Erling"]
[Black "Mikhalevski, Victor"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B78"]
[WhiteElo "2438"]
[BlackElo "2532"]
[PlyCount "123"]
[EventDate "2000.07.17"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "11"]
[EventCountry "DEN"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2000.09.14"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 Qb8
15. h4 Rfc8 16. h5 Rxc3 17. bxc3 Qc7 18. hxg6 fxg6 19. Nb3 Qxc3 20. Qxc3 Rxc3
21. Rd3 Rc8 22. Bxa7 Bb5 23. Rd2 Nd7 24. Bd4 Ne5 25. Rf2 Rf8 26. Rh3 Bd7 27.
Rg3 h6 28. c3 Be6 29. Nd2 Rc8 30. Rf1 g5 31. Rg2 b5 32. Rh2 Ra8 33. Nb3 Bc4 34.
Rff2 Kh7 35. Rh3 Kg6 36. Rfh2 Bd3+ 37. Ka1 Rf8 38. Nd2 Rc8 39. a3 Bc2 40. Kb2
Bd1 41. Kc1 Ba4 42. Kb1 Rf8 43. Rh1 Rc8 44. Ka2 Nd3 45. Bxg7 Kxg7 46. Nb1 Nf2
47. Rxh6 Nxh1 48. Rxh1 Bc2 49. Kb2 Bxb1 50. Rxb1 Kf6 51. Rd1 Rc5 52. Rh1 Ke5
53. Rh7 Kf4 54. Rf7+ Ke3 55. Kc2 Rc4 56. Rf5 e5 57. Rf6 Ra4 58. Kb2 Rc4 59. Kb3
Ke2 60. Kc2 Ra4 61. Kb2 Rc4 62. Kc2 1/2-1/2



  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #40 - 09/04/15 at 23:47:11
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donphille wrote on 09/04/15 at 06:58:10:
Hi Folks, I am new here and I like to add my point of view. Of course I have not read the entire threads to the "Burnett-Variation" etc. But I think too, that 15.g5 (!) and only than 16.b3 actually is really a pain in the (black´s) ass. I saw a poll here about the lines and I would give 14...Qb8!? a deal of investigation, as many commentated games only give this move as "!?" and the games I am reffering to are by GM Mikhalevsky. Of course in all repertoires there is a particular line one does not like and here one has to suffer too objectively, but hey, thats in other positions also the case Undecided

I am also very keen of the books by G. Jones, as he prefers the Topalov. Recently he lost with it against GM Kravchik and later Jones tweeted, that he had forgotten hos book recomandatian.

To tell the truth, th eTopalov is more or less a pawn sacrifice and many many pieces arr traded as well, so actually im afraid black lacks sufficent counterplay.

I like to know your thoughts about the Move 14...Qb8 and the Topalov variation in general.

Thank you in advance!


14. ...Qb8 - do you mean this move order?

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 Qb8
15. h4 Rfc8 16. h5 Rxc3 17. bxc3 Qc7 18. hxg6 hxg6 19. Qh2 (19. Bh6 Qxc3 20.
Bxg7 Qxd2 21. Rxd2 Kxg7 22. Kb2 Rc5 (22... Nh7 23. Rdh2 Ng5 24. f4 e5 25. fxg5
exd4 26. Rh7+ Kf8 27. Rh8+ Ke7 28. Rxc8 Bxc8 29. Rd1 Bxg4 30. Rxd4) 23. Nb3 Rc7
24. c3) 19... Qxc3 20. Rd3 Qxd3 (20... Qb4+ 21. Rb3 Qc4 22. Rxb7 Bxg4 23. fxg4
Nxe4 24. Qh7+ Kf8 25. Rb2 Bf6 26. g5 Be5 27. Qh4) *

  

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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #39 - 09/04/15 at 12:45:03
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Hi donphile, a hearty welcome to the fray! Smiley

To help people here, and this applies to others hereabouts too, could you perhaps include the preceding moves please? I know it is a bit of a pain, but it will increase the likelihood of getting replies, as more people will be following more clearly.
As an example, I am fairly familiar, but cannot quite place in my head where the Qb8 fits in.

Thanks!

All the best,
B
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #38 - 09/04/15 at 06:58:10
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Hi Folks, I am new here and I like to add my point of view. Of course I have not read the entire threads to the "Burnett-Variation" etc. But I think too, that 15.g5 (!) and only than 16.b3 actually is really a pain in the (black´s) ass. I saw a poll here about the lines and I would give 14...Qb8!? a deal of investigation, as many commentated games only give this move as "!?" and the games I am reffering to are by GM Mikhalevsky. Of course in all repertoires there is a particular line one does not like and here one has to suffer too objectively, but hey, thats in other positions also the case Undecided

I am also very keen of the books by G. Jones, as he prefers the Topalov. Recently he lost with it against GM Kravchik and later Jones tweeted, that he had forgotten hos book recomandatian.

To tell the truth, th eTopalov is more or less a pawn sacrifice and many many pieces arr traded as well, so actually im afraid black lacks sufficent counterplay.

I like to know your thoughts about the Move 14...Qb8 and the Topalov variation in general.

Thank you in advance!
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #37 - 08/15/15 at 19:45:08
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After spending some time analyzing 12. Kb1 a6 and 12. Kb1 Re8 I've come to a quite obvious conclusion that in the Soltis variation there is no place for such moves like ...a6 and ...Re8 (I found no improvements in the main lines). I said "Soltis", because White plays 13. h4 and Black replies 13...h5 and we reach a position from the Soltis after 12. h4 h5 13. Kb1 when Black instead of a critical 13...Nc4! played 13...a6 or 13...Re8.

My conclusion: it seems that 12...a6 & 12...Re8 against 12. Kb1 line are close to +/-, the same as 12...Nc4 and declined Burnett with 15. g5! & 16. b3. That's why after 10. 0-0-0 it's better to try the Chinese Dragon (10...Rb8) instead where in positional lines white has only small advantage. However, from a theoretical point of view the best solution to 9. Bc4 & 10.0-0-0 is probably 10...Nxd4 - the Topalov variation.
Let's wait and see what Mr Jones has to say about the Topalov line and how Mr Negi will approach it (I bet he will cover 9. Bc4 Dragon but maybe 10. h4 move order!?)
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #36 - 08/07/15 at 10:31:08
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MartinC wrote on 08/07/15 at 08:45:39:
AJZ wrote on 08/06/15 at 19:56:32:
The Dragon seems under pressure, because it's very well researched and has many tactical play that computers are able to check in deep these days, so the path to equality is thus really narrow.


No, there's more to it than that Smiley The Dragon always has been dependent on very narrow tactical lines, whereas there's some openings which are clearly sound in all sorts of ways and have dozens of playable side/main lines.


Of course with the Dragon the path to an attempted White  advantage is narrow as well.  Only Yugoslav lines are truly threatening and there is a narrow path within within those variations as well.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #35 - 08/07/15 at 08:45:39
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AJZ wrote on 08/06/15 at 19:56:32:
The Dragon seems under pressure, because it's very well researched and has many tactical play that computers are able to check in deep these days, so the path to equality is thus really narrow.


No, there's more to it than that Smiley The Dragon always has been dependent on very narrow tactical lines, whereas there's some openings which are clearly sound in all sorts of ways and have dozens of playable side/main lines.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #34 - 08/07/15 at 07:58:17
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Quote:
... as far as I can tell, the Kan is not too nice to play against the line with c4 and Qd3, as played by e.g. Carlsen against Anand in their latest match.


I'd never reach this since I'd go 6 ...Qc7! There's a recent game in this line annotated on ChessPublishing ...
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #33 - 08/06/15 at 22:20:03
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/15 at 18:09:49:
Quote:
Kalashnikov - Still awesome.


Well indeed. It wins.  Cheesy

But also, just what's wrong with the Kan?


Lol. Well, as far as I can tell, the Kan is not too nice to play against the line with c4 and Qd3, as played by e.g. Carlsen against Anand in their latest match.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #32 - 08/06/15 at 22:03:17
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gewgaw wrote on 08/06/15 at 16:38:54:
When I read your comment a question occurred to me: in which shape is the sicilian in general:
- classical: under pressure in the 6.Bg5 line - Rauser-attack for many years
- dragon: under pressure in many lines after 9.000, 9.Bc4 and even 9.g4 Be6 10.Nxe6
- scheveningen: under pressure after 6.g4 and even in the najdorf way 5. ...a6, 6. ...e6 the pressure increases, e.g. Wei Yi - Bruzon (?)
- taimanov with 5. ...Qc7 - afaik, the only sicilian in a good shape, I've played it for years and it still works fine
- najdorf: I was always eager to play it, but simply too much theory for an amateur like me, probably in good shape, too.
- sveshnikov: white found his way to play for just two results in the line 9.Nd5 10.Bxf6


If this is so, I must be doing something wrong, because I have been demolished as White in the Open Sicilians when I played 1. e4. Actually last time I played against the Dragon as White I was lost by move 22-23. Quite often I do not last more than 25 moves, so what is this about Black being under pressure in the Sicilian that you speak of? Smiley

But the Dragon seems like Black is fine I really think so. Same with basically all of the Sicilians. I am looking towards Jones book soon as this looks like the best way to get me into the Dragon.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #31 - 08/06/15 at 19:56:32
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The Dragon seems under pressure, because it's very well researched and has many tactical play that computers are able to check in deep these days, so the path to equality is thus really narrow.

It will be interesting to see how GM Negi puts a pressure on Kalashnikov, Tajmanov, Kan & other less researched lines putting them under his microscope that nobody ever used when writing an opening book.

The Dragon and some other lines (most probably including Accelarated and Hyper-Accelerated Dragons) that we don't know will be examined in the upcoming Sicilian II QC book (release date: September 2015). According to publisher there will be one more book on the Sicilian for White by the author.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #30 - 08/06/15 at 18:09:49
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Quote:
Kalashnikov - Still awesome.


Well indeed. It wins.  Cheesy

But also, just what's wrong with the Kan?
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #29 - 08/06/15 at 17:10:21
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Kalashnikov - Still awesome.  Cheesy Wink Grin
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #28 - 08/06/15 at 16:38:54
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 08/06/15 at 02:24:52:
Well I played before the Najdorf, Taimanow, and Kan. I do not study very much on the Kan because it is easy to update compared to the Najdorf. Najdorf I wanted to quit and switch it with the Dragon. This means I would play Taimanow, Dragon, and Kan. I was analysing my file on 6. Lg5 Sbd7 that I made over one year ago, some stuff playing around with Stockfisk and Houdini til move 55 trying to see if the rook endgame is equal. Then I wondered if this is even worth it because if I play the Najdorf someone will play 6. h3 and know at least 10 times as much there instead of 6. Lg5.

In my experience the Najdorf now til days seems like at least 20x more theory than the Dragon. I bet that 6. Lg5 takes up more theory than the entire Dragon Cheesy


When I read your comment a question occurred to me: in which shape is the sicilian in general:
- classical: under pressure in the 6.Bg5 line - Rauser-attack for many years
- dragon: under pressure in many lines after 9.000, 9.Bc4 and even 9.g4 Be6 10.Nxe6
- scheveningen: under pressure after 6.g4 and even in the najdorf way 5. ...a6, 6. ...e6 the pressure increases, e.g. Wei Yi - Bruzon (?)
- taimanov with 5. ...Qc7 - afaik, the only sicilian in a good shape, I've played it for years and it still works fine
- najdorf: I was always eager to play it, but simply too much theory for an amateur like me, probably in good shape, too.
- sveshnikov: white found his way to play for just two results in the line 9.Nd5 10.Bxf6
  

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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #27 - 08/06/15 at 09:44:17
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A friend of mine plays the dragon since 40+ years on a lower level than you. He always said there are lines under pressure and then someone repairs them. So he has always a 2nd line as backup. Maybe that's part of the work to do.
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #26 - 08/06/15 at 02:24:52
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Well I played before the Najdorf, Taimanow, and Kan. I do not study very much on the Kan because it is easy to update compared to the Najdorf. Najdorf I wanted to quit and switch it with the Dragon. This means I would play Taimanow, Dragon, and Kan. I was analysing my file on 6. Lg5 Sbd7 that I made over one year ago, some stuff playing around with Stockfisk and Houdini til move 55 trying to see if the rook endgame is equal. Then I wondered if this is even worth it because if I play the Najdorf someone will play 6. h3 and know at least 10 times as much there instead of 6. Lg5.

In my experience the Najdorf now til days seems like at least 20x more theory than the Dragon. I bet that 6. Lg5 takes up more theory than the entire Dragon Cheesy
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #25 - 08/06/15 at 01:35:14
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As AJZ1985 and bragesjo have pointed out, learning the Chinese is starting to not seem worth the trouble.  Apparently GM Jones is of the same opinion as his new books on the Dragon are not going to cover it.  (As I mentioned in another thread, the excerpts with the table of contents are up at the Quality Chess website.)  He's gone for the Topalov and Soltis as the main variations with the Burnett as an alternative to the Topalov.  If I remember correctly, he only spent 5 pages on it so I'm not too hopeful that he's resurrected 15.g5 (I meant find something playable for Black after 15.g5) although I hope I'm wrong. 

I like the Dragon in principle but I'm not sure I want to study enough to play such a narrow repertoire.  That's an advantage in a way but also makes one a target.  I suppose one could mix it up with another Sicilian variation.
« Last Edit: 08/06/15 at 14:15:14 by Glenn Snow »  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #24 - 08/05/15 at 15:04:41
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Hello.

Maybe there is need for an all encompassing thread on the Chinese dragon. For example "Chinese Dragon analysis and critical lines" (or whatever). I think it could grow quite nicely and other threads might be spared a lot of mostly non-topical Chinese dragon discussion.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #23 - 08/05/15 at 13:24:53
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When the Chinese variation where new I won several nice games with it.
I even crusched a FM in a team match in Swedish Superettan (division diretctly bellow Elite) since I knew theory one move longer.

Unfortunnaly during the years white players begun to play better lines and also how to defend better by Ka1 and Rb1 idea in some positions.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #22 - 08/05/15 at 12:25:35
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/04/15 at 22:01:18:
This thread is making me look more seriously at the Chinese Dragon.  I'm several years behind on it now but it's nice to know there's still no clear cut refutation.


After spending some time analyzing the Chinese Dragon I haven't found any refutation too, but...

12. Bh6 line with a positional 14. Nd5 (after 13...b5) or a 14. Ndb5 (after 13...e5) gives White slight but stable advantage. Black's counterplay on the queenside is very limited. There is some play in the centre for Black but White has it under control.

So I'm asking myself a  question, why should I play the Chinese when in the main line Topalov variation (13. Nd5), where there is also the Dragon bishop absent and the play is on both flanks, Black has better counterplay based on a bad bishop on b3 and often exposed White king. I think that in mentioned positions in the Chinese the knight on a5 is placed not so good: it's blocking a7 pawn and if traded on b3, White has good shield against Black attacks; when the knight goes to c4 it is captured and the b-file seems not enough to compensate White's domination on the kingside and in the center.
The counterplay against the white bishop on b3 by pushing a & b pawns with knights traded on d4 is a lot easier for Black to achieve and gives them some reasonable initiative. Those positions in the Topalov are respected by the most recent Dragon sources: Vigorito's excellent theoretical update and even Pavlovic analysis that are done in the Cutting edge mostly from White side perspective.

I started playing the Chinese Dragon, because I was thrilled to sacrifice the pawn after "normal" 10. 0-0-0 Rb8 11. h4 b5!, but since that time White has found better way to combat against Black plans, taking the whole excitement with calm 11. Bb3 - 12. Bh6 - Nd5 sequence that is harmless in 10...Rc8 or 10...Nxd4 variations.

Having said that, I think that the Chinese Dragon is still playable alternative and White must be well prepared to mantain the initiative. If well prepared White is going to push with kingside and center play without serious risks on the queenside. It may be not enough for victory but White has most the of the fun on his side.

That's why I decide to move on. I'm ready to check the Carlsen variation now, to find out if it is any real alternative to the Topalov line. Thank you for finding those links to the existing analysis of 15. Qc1 and the main lines. When I find the road to equality for Black in the Carlsen line, I will share my findings with you.


  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #21 - 08/04/15 at 22:01:18
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This thread is making me look more seriously at the Chinese Dragon.  I'm several years behind on it now but it's nice to know there's still no clear cut refutation.

Regarding 15.Qc1, here's another thread at chesspub on it:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1340448557
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #20 - 08/04/15 at 19:13:32
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Glenn and ArKheiN, thank you for the theory update. I will check the Chinese first as it is in my repertoire and share the results. I must admit that I didn't know both lines: 14. Ndb5 in the Chinese and 15. Qc1 in the Carlsen line. My break from chess was too long I suppose and some important changes happened.

I'm checking 13...b5 line in the Chinese (after 10. 0-0-0 Rb8 11. Bb3 Na5 12. Bh6 Bxh6 13. Qxh6), as I wasn't able to find satisfactory continuation after: 13...e5 14. Ndb5! Bxb5 15. Nxb5 Nxb3+ 16. axb3 Qa5 17. Na3 - White has kingside play where there are black squares holes, whilst Black is blocked on the queenside; d5 push weakens e5 pawn. White has definitely an initiative and seems to have slightly better chances as Black's counterplay is weak (stable +/=)
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #19 - 08/04/15 at 10:36:31
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bragesjo wrote on 08/04/15 at 08:35:12:
This link is not to one of my sites. I used to have Dragon site with several 100 of my own games but the free server I used sqreeved things up during server upgrade so it stopped to work and they failed to fix it so I killed my account there.


Thank you bragesjo for pointing this out.  I should have checked this better.  I see that he does link to one of your previous sites (probably the one you were referring to).  It looks like the site belongs to Jason Juett (he's listed as the annotator) and has posted here as CapaTal.

He seems to have abandoned the project but what he has done is excellent.  I think I've found a mistake in one of his variations but I'll post a different thread for that some day.

Edit:  And he's already posted the variation (game) here at chesspub!  http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1265511849/6#6

I'd still download the free file to see his analysis of various tries for Black.  The best I found is almost equality but in a position where Black is just fairly solid playing for the draw essentially.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #18 - 08/04/15 at 08:35:12
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This link is not to one of my sites. I used to have Dragon site with several 100 of my own games but the free server I used sqreeved things up during server upgrade so it stopped to work and they failed to fix it so I killed my account there.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #17 - 08/03/15 at 22:03:54
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The variation that currently bothers me the most in the 12...a6 is on one of bragesjo's sites.  I may ask him if I can post analysis from the site as it's free and would benefit the discussion here (or maybe he'll see this and post it himself). 

But here's a link to the site:
https://openingtheory.wordpress.com/about/

Look for the Anand-Carlsen game that was a draw in this variation and you'll find a note to 15.Bxc4 regarding 15.Qc1!?   This queen move looks highly annoying.  Having said that White may have better tries.  I haven't looked into this variation much.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #16 - 08/03/15 at 18:51:11
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Brabo's line for White in the Chinese Dragon is the one discussed here http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1403103436/0

I don't say it's a big problem for Black, but I don't know yet which way of play is the best for Black to keep a true balance in this subline. It's something like slight advantage for White but Black should be ok with best play. I got Black in a corr. game where I managed to equalize and draw but I didn't like the game very much and maybe White could have put a little more problems to me.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #15 - 08/03/15 at 14:13:14
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Quote:
I'm really interested to know what's the problematic line in the Chinese Dragon you mentioned. Now I'm hoping that Carsten Hansen will cover the Chinese in his upcoming book, as he's a very good writer.

12...a6 is designed to be slow - to wait for White g4 push and then taking a pawn on the kingside and defending & counterattacking with the e5 knight as an important defender, because it wasn't traded on c4. In some lines where Black rook goes to h8, Black has an extra a6 move compared to 12...Re8 variation (CHOPIN has only one line analysed and comparing with the books I checked, it's not the most critical one). As I've never liked Re8 here or in the Soltis, I would rather analyse 12...a6 first (and it's the Carlsen Variation after all!). I don't know if I decide to do so but if I do I let you know if I succeded in finding equality or not.

As for Dragon "memoralization problem", I would say that Dragon lines are easier to remember than in many other variations (e. g. Najdorf) imo. There are many typical ideas and strikes to follow and play is very logical. White's tasks is not that easy too - in 9. Bc4 one must be prepared to play against Soltis, Topalov or Chinese, 10...Qa5 and others. It's not decided who makes the first error. If you're better prepared, you can beat the opponent rated well above you based on your home prep. When you're not, you can loose to one rated below. I think with playing the Dragon you take chances, risks a little but in the long run it should pay off, as you learn a lot above active & seeking initiative chess in general.
AJZ1985

I'll post the line that I can't find equality in the 12...a6 variation later tonight (I'm in Indiana and it's 10:12am).  It's given as a strong option for White in an online resource by one of the members here on chesspub.  I'm going to have to look it up to remember who.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #14 - 08/03/15 at 08:36:04
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I have been playing the Najdorf for over 10 years and what happes now is that the little sideline moves like 6. h3 are getting very popular and you have to memorise everything in developments here. In addition the other lines like 6. Le2, 6. g3, 6. Le3 or 6. f3, 6. Lc4 all have a lot of theory themselves. Mentioning of course 6. Lg5 which is, in my opinion, starting to become beyond ridiculous in terms of preparation needed. It is much more than 10 years ago.

That is why I consider the Dragon. Lines to move 40 or whatever happen quite often in the Sicilian, but the Dragon at least it is basically fixed in the 9. Lc4 variation. Najdorf you do this for probably many of the 6th moves Smiley
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #13 - 08/03/15 at 07:57:03
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ArKheiN wrote on 08/03/15 at 05:04:11:
As a Dragon "expert" I would recommand either the Chinese Dragon + Soltis or Topalov + Soltis. The Chinese Dragon is my favourite but one of the rare line I don't like much for Black is the one given by Brabo in the other thread but it should be playable. I have analysed the 12.Kb1 line in the past mostly for White and I don't like Black. a6 seems too slow for me and Nc4 was insufficient according to the theory and practice but I don't know if there is an improvment for Black. Re8 I don't like much but according to a recent article on the chess website CHOPIN this line is ok for Black but I have not checked the analysis yet but I am interested to do soon because it could be a weapon more for Black as a complement of the Soltis. It is clear now that the Soltis should be the central game for Black' repertoire. It is not a bad idea to study both 2 or 3 complement I mentionned as I believe you can use any main opening for life but sxitching slightly with dubvariations depending of the opponent or the situation for example to avoid to be too predictable or playing against the opponent's preparation. The problem for the Dragon OTB is that it requires a lot of precise memorisation often for more than 40 moves just to survive while White just need one dangerous line to remember even if it's ok for Black with best play.


I'm really interested to know what's the problematic line in the Chinese Dragon you mentioned. Now I'm hoping that Carsten Hansen will cover the Chinese in his upcoming book, as he's a very good writer.

12...a6 is designed to be slow - to wait for White g4 push and then taking a pawn on the kingside and defending & counterattacking with the e5 knight as an important defender, because it wasn't traded on c4. In some lines where Black rook goes to h8, Black has an extra a6 move compared to 12...Re8 variation (CHOPIN has only one line analysed and comparing with the books I checked, it's not the most critical one). As I've never liked Re8 here or in the Soltis, I would rather analyse 12...a6 first (and it's the Carlsen Variation after all!). I don't know if I decide to do so but if I do I let you know if I succeded in finding equality or not.

As for Dragon "memoralization problem", I would say that Dragon lines are easier to remember than in many other variations (e. g. Najdorf) imo. There are many typical ideas and strikes to follow and play is very logical. White's tasks is not that easy too - in 9. Bc4 one must be prepared to play against Soltis, Topalov or Chinese, 10...Qa5 and others. It's not decided who makes the first error. If you're better prepared, you can beat the opponent rated well above you based on your home prep. When you're not, you can loose to one rated below. I think with playing the Dragon you take chances, risks a little but in the long run it should pay off, as you learn a lot above active & seeking initiative chess in general.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #12 - 08/03/15 at 05:04:11
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As a Dragon "expert" I would recommand either the Chinese Dragon + Soltis or Topalov + Soltis. The Chinese Dragon is my favourite but one of the rare line I don't like much for Black is the one given by Brabo in the other thread but it should be playable. I have analysed the 12.Kb1 line in the past mostly for White and I don't like Black. a6 seems too slow for me and Nc4 was insufficient according to the theory and practice but I don't know if there is an improvment for Black. Re8 I don't like much but according to a recent article on the chess website CHOPIN this line is ok for Black but I have not checked the analysis yet but I am interested to do soon because it could be a weapon more for Black as a complement of the Soltis. It is clear now that the Soltis should be the central game for Black' repertoire. It is not a bad idea to study both 2 or 3 complement I mentionned as I believe you can use any main opening for life but sxitching slightly with dubvariations depending of the opponent or the situation for example to avoid to be too predictable or playing against the opponent's preparation. The problem for the Dragon OTB is that it requires a lot of precise memorisation often for more than 40 moves just to survive while White just need one dangerous line to remember even if it's ok for Black with best play.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #11 - 08/02/15 at 22:37:29
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gewgaw wrote on 08/02/15 at 22:04:28:
Glenn Snow wrote on 08/02/15 at 00:59:17:
AJZ wrote on 07/30/15 at 09:01:29:
In 12. Kb1...15. g5 line I've found something  a while ago. Can you post a line which seems to be hard for Black? I don't have Nielsen's DVDs, so I can't assess his recommendations.

I think DenVerdsligeRejsende you should check the Chinese variation too. I personally like it a lot and I hope that G. Jones books will cover it.


Here's some analysis on some of the troubles I think Black has after 15.g5.


Thanks for your lines.
Why first 16. ...Rc5 and then 17. ...Rc8 - why not 16. ...Rc8 immediately?

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2015.08.02"]
[Round "?"]
[White "alternatives on move 15"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B78"]
[Annotator "Snow,Microsoft"]
[PlyCount "33"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 b5
15. g5 Nh5 16. b3 Rc5 (16... Rc8 17. f4 (17. Ndxb5 Re8 18. Nd4) (17. Nde2 a5
18. Nd5 Be6) 17... b4 18. Nce2 e5 19. fxe5 dxe5 20. Nf5 Bxf5 21. exf5 gxf5) 17.
Nd5 *



Glenn, I think you nailed it - I can't find any improvement for Black after 15. g5!  Sad
Gewgaw, I don't see enough compensation after 16...Rc8 17. Ndxb5.
And after 16...b4 White has 17. Nd5 declining the Burnett exchange sacrifice, which is probably the main point of playing g5 before b3.

So for me, 12... Nc4 is not the way to fight against 12. Kb1 variation. I think we're left with Carlsen variation (12...a6) and 12...Re8. I don't know what's the problem with them as for now, because I switched to the Chinese Dragon a while ago.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #10 - 08/02/15 at 22:04:28
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/02/15 at 00:59:17:
AJZ wrote on 07/30/15 at 09:01:29:
In 12. Kb1...15. g5 line I've found something  a while ago. Can you post a line which seems to be hard for Black? I don't have Nielsen's DVDs, so I can't assess his recommendations.

I think DenVerdsligeRejsende you should check the Chinese variation too. I personally like it a lot and I hope that G. Jones books will cover it.


Here's some analysis on some of the troubles I think Black has after 15.g5.


Thanks for your lines.
Why first 16. ...Rc5 and then 17. ...Rc8 - why not 16. ...Rc8 immediately?

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2015.08.02"]
[Round "?"]
[White "alternatives on move 15"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B78"]
[Annotator "Snow,Microsoft"]
[PlyCount "33"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 b5
15. g5 Nh5 16. b3 Rc5 (16... Rc8 17. f4 (17. Ndxb5 Re8 18. Nd4) (17. Nde2 a5
18. Nd5 Be6) 17... b4 18. Nce2 e5 19. fxe5 dxe5 20. Nf5 Bxf5 21. exf5 gxf5) 17.
Nd5 *

  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #9 - 08/02/15 at 00:59:17
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AJZ wrote on 07/30/15 at 09:01:29:
In 12. Kb1...15. g5 line I've found something  a while ago. Can you post a line which seems to be hard for Black? I don't have Nielsen's DVDs, so I can't assess his recommendations.

I think DenVerdsligeRejsende you should check the Chinese variation too. I personally like it a lot and I hope that G. Jones books will cover it.


Here's some analysis on some of the troubles I think Black has after 15.g5.
  

New_Database.pgn ( 1 KB | 195 Downloads )
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #8 - 07/30/15 at 09:01:29
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In 12. Kb1...15. g5 line I've found something  a while ago. Can you post a line which seems to be hard for Black? I don't have Nielsen's DVDs, so I can't assess his recommendations.

I think DenVerdsligeRejsende you should check the Chinese variation too. I personally like it a lot and I hope that G. Jones books will cover it.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #7 - 07/29/15 at 18:44:19
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This is the exchange sac of 12...Sc4. 15. g5 would be the alternative to 15. b3.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #6 - 07/29/15 at 13:16:28
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I believe Glenn is referencing 12.Kb1 Nc4 13.Bxc4 Rxc4 14.g4 b5 15.g5, while the exchange sacrifice line everyone is referring to (sidenote - I have always called it the Burnett Variation, but I think Nielsen calls it the Stocek Variation) is 15.b3 b4!? 16.bxc4 bxc3 17.Qxc3 Qc7, etc.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #5 - 07/29/15 at 13:04:24
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Hi all,
Just a quick request. I am somewhat familiar as have played the dragon OTB and have the DVDs.
But without checking I am lost here re the moves there, perhaps others may be too. Glenn, Tony - could you perhaps provide the moves leading to 15.g5 so we can follow pls?
Thanks guys, much obliged if you can.
B
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #4 - 07/29/15 at 02:14:13
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 07/29/15 at 01:26:49:
There is a game in the DVD of Nielsen Greet-Jones, 2009 Torquay where Jones played 12...Sc4, with the 15. b3 b4 exchange sac variation. Whether he goes to recommend this in his upcoming book that I do not know. I looked at this sacrifice a bit and it looks interesting. Nielsen also recommends it in the DVD.


I have Nielsen's DVD's and like them quite a lot.  His improvements in the exchange sac variation are very interesting but I didn't look at them on the computer because I couldn't find anything close to equality in the 15.g5 variation.  To his credit, Nielsen covers this too but where he states Black has more compensation than is at first apparent (paraphrasing), I rather disagree.  It's still a decent practical try because maybe it would take a computer to prove it but if someone has prepared the line then I think you're lost or close to it.  This is essentially what I wrote in the thread about Jone's upcoming Dragon books in that thread.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #3 - 07/29/15 at 01:26:49
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There is a game in the DVD of Nielsen Greet-Jones, 2009 Torquay where Jones played 12...Sc4, with the 15. b3 b4 exchange sac variation. Whether he goes to recommend this in his upcoming book that I do not know. I looked at this sacrifice a bit and it looks interesting. Nielsen also recommends it in the DVD.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #2 - 07/29/15 at 00:30:46
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My opinion echoes Mr. Snow's as well. When I took up the Dragon, the 12.Kb1 line was just becoming popular, and most people were going 12...Re8 - everyone thought this was sufficient, and the Burnett line was yet to be discovered. Nowadays I don't trust any of Black's three options, and I think he should instead head to the Topalov variation. Of course, as Glenn pointed out, you must be ready to head into the Soltis anyway after 10.h4 h5, etc.

I am very interested to hear what Jones has to say about both 12.Kb1 (if he even allows it) and 9.O-O-O d5 (I consider this to be the only move as of now) 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4!, etc. To me the former is very dangerous and the latter is very little fun for Black.
  
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Re: 9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
Reply #1 - 07/28/15 at 23:59:40
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 07/28/15 at 21:55:29:
I think that I might quit the Najdorf because it is becoming wholely ridiculous the amount of theory there, and in exchange I insert the Dragon. The main line with 12. Kb1 in Jugoslaw is probably most critical in the entire opening. If I want to play a choice here that is fairly stable and do not have to go hopping all over the place in alternatives, which to choose?

I have Peter Heine Nielsen's DVD, very good DVD, and he gives 12...Sc4. Is this still good for a permament choice? There is also 12...a6 and 12...Te8 like in Vigorito's book. Or do you Dragonplayers play all three? If you had to play against 12. Kb1 at a 2300+ level which one would you choose regularly?


Great question and I can't wait to see the opinion of some of the real Dragon experts here.  My own current opinion is that Black is really suffering after 12.Kb1 and that he should have deviated earlier and played the Topalov System or maybe, although I don't have as much confidence in it, the Chinese Dragon.  I still think it's necessary to learn the pure Soltis in case White plays 10.h4.  I'd probably play the Dragon if I knew of an answer to 12.Kb1 (it would help to have something more exciting versus 9.0-0-0 but that's chess).
  
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9. Lc4: 12. Kb1 Permanent choice for Black?
07/28/15 at 21:55:29
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I think that I might quit the Najdorf because it is becoming wholely ridiculous the amount of theory there, and in exchange I insert the Dragon. The main line with 12. Kb1 in Jugoslaw is probably most critical in the entire opening. If I want to play a choice here that is fairly stable and do not have to go hopping all over the place in alternatives, which to choose?

I have Peter Heine Nielsen's DVD, very good DVD, and he gives 12...Sc4. Is this still good for a permament choice? There is also 12...a6 and 12...Te8 like in Vigorito's book. Or do you Dragonplayers play all three? If you had to play against 12. Kb1 at a 2300+ level which one would you choose regularly?
  
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