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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line? (Read 13494 times)
mn
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #20 - 09/30/17 at 03:44:09
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Well this doesn't involve sacrificing a pawn, for one. From what I remember, White essentially gets a tempo up version of the line 3...e5 4 Nge2 Be7 5 g3 (with an eventual h3 and g4) - somewhat similar to 6 h3 vs 6 g3 in the Najdorf.
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #19 - 09/30/17 at 02:04:22
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Pardon my ignorance and not having a look at the databases of games, but is this an improvement or does it lead to the same position as Shirov's 5 g4?? (which from a quick look at McDonald's SO:1 e4! which a ChessPubber reminded me justbthe other day). Shirt's 5 g4 will have ...e5 and Nf3 as extra moves ......
Thanks for the enlightenment in advance ......
  

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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #18 - 09/29/17 at 23:42:38
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On the qualitychess blog John Shaw said 4.g4 is why he no longer plays the 3...Nbd7 move order.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #17 - 09/29/17 at 21:03:06
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Quote:
4 g4! would do more to put me off, personally.

Having looked at this further, I'm rather tempted to agree ...
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #16 - 09/23/17 at 15:33:46
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4 g4! would do more to put me off, personally.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #15 - 09/22/17 at 22:00:16
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Quote:
Yes, if Black prefers to be not so adventurous there is an earlier equalizing line also.

Could you say more here?
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #14 - 10/31/16 at 12:46:42
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Yes, if Black prefers to be not so adventurous there is an earlier equalizing line also.
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #13 - 10/28/16 at 09:22:40
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Keano wrote on 10/26/16 at 11:52:50:
fling wrote on 10/26/16 at 09:20:06:
Do you mean 12...Ba6 instead of 12 0-0 as in the game in the OP (Sprenger-Galdunts)?

In that case, I don't see the big improvement, unfortunately. Ftacnik commented on the game Polgar-Rivas Pastor, 1993, by giving 11 ...bxc6 and then 12 0-0-0 Ba6, but continuing this line, there is 13. Qd2, and White is clearly better after 13. Bxf1 14. Bf2!


Yes something like that. 14.Bf2 is a good move not easy to find OTB, but then simply ...0-0 15.Rxf1 Qc7 etc. when Black has a safer king and active play for a pawn, probably the engines say White is better but it is not an easy position to handle for him still.


I agree, even though the engines gives +/-, it seems like White's position isn't easy to play anyway due to the relative safety of the kings.
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #12 - 10/28/16 at 08:25:40
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Keano wrote on 10/27/16 at 20:44:28:
fling wrote on 10/27/16 at 10:35:12:
But Black's king is not that safe either. White continues 16. Qd3, moves the queen away from the d-file, to e.g. f3, h3 or f5, and Black can't have anything for the pawn. Black can't grab the f-pawn after this either, as 16...Qxf4 17. Be3 and then 18. Qf5+ looks horrible for Black.


eh - Qf5+?? Black has castled kingside, not over on the queenside, that wouldnt be wise.


Ah, I see. Sorry! I couldn't see the compensation, but it makes sense now  Grin
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #11 - 10/27/16 at 20:44:28
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fling wrote on 10/27/16 at 10:35:12:
But Black's king is not that safe either. White continues 16. Qd3, moves the queen away from the d-file, to e.g. f3, h3 or f5, and Black can't have anything for the pawn. Black can't grab the f-pawn after this either, as 16...Qxf4 17. Be3 and then 18. Qf5+ looks horrible for Black.


eh - Qf5+?? Black has castled kingside, not over on the queenside, that wouldnt be wise.
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #10 - 10/27/16 at 10:35:12
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Keano wrote on 10/26/16 at 11:52:50:
fling wrote on 10/26/16 at 09:20:06:
Do you mean 12...Ba6 instead of 12 0-0 as in the game in the OP (Sprenger-Galdunts)?

In that case, I don't see the big improvement, unfortunately. Ftacnik commented on the game Polgar-Rivas Pastor, 1993, by giving 11 ...bxc6 and then 12 0-0-0 Ba6, but continuing this line, there is 13. Qd2, and White is clearly better after 13. Bxf1 14. Bf2!


Yes something like that. 14.Bf2 is a good move not easy to find OTB, but then simply ...0-0 15.Rxf1 Qc7 etc. when Black has a safer king and active play for a pawn, probably the engines say White is better but it is not an easy position to handle for him still.


But Black's king is not that safe either. White continues 16. Qd3, moves the queen away from the d-file, to e.g. f3, h3 or f5, and Black can't have anything for the pawn. Black can't grab the f-pawn after this either, as 16...Qxf4 17. Be3 and then 18. Qf5+ looks horrible for Black.
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #9 - 10/26/16 at 11:52:50
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fling wrote on 10/26/16 at 09:20:06:
Do you mean 12...Ba6 instead of 12 0-0 as in the game in the OP (Sprenger-Galdunts)?

In that case, I don't see the big improvement, unfortunately. Ftacnik commented on the game Polgar-Rivas Pastor, 1993, by giving 11 ...bxc6 and then 12 0-0-0 Ba6, but continuing this line, there is 13. Qd2, and White is clearly better after 13. Bxf1 14. Bf2!


Yes something like that. 14.Bf2 is a good move not easy to find OTB, but then simply ...0-0 15.Rxf1 Qc7 etc. when Black has a safer king and active play for a pawn, probably the engines say White is better but it is not an easy position to handle for him still.
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #8 - 10/26/16 at 09:20:06
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Keano wrote on 09/29/16 at 11:28:22:
On the exd5 sideline mentioned in passing by Greet  12...Ba6 is a big improvement for Black.


Do you mean 12...Ba6 instead of 12 0-0 as in the game in the OP (Sprenger-Galdunts)?

In that case, I don't see the big improvement, unfortunately. Ftacnik commented on the game Polgar-Rivas Pastor, 1993, by giving 11 ...bxc6 and then 12 0-0-0 Ba6, but continuing this line, there is 13. Qd2, and White is clearly better after 13. Bxf1 14. Bf2!
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #7 - 09/29/16 at 11:28:22
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On the exd5 sideline mentioned in passing by Greet  12...Ba6 is a big improvement for Black.

Over the board those positions dont look very practical for White to play. He needs to find several only moves.

Apart from that there are even alternatives earlier on which completely equalize the game. I thought Andrew Greets book was absolutely brilliant, a modern masterpiece, but this was a weakpoint in it.
« Last Edit: 09/29/16 at 19:38:41 by Keano »  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #6 - 09/29/16 at 02:53:12
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Keano wrote on 09/28/16 at 21:25:39:
All very interesting but Greet recommends 8.e5 so a bit befuddled by the thread title.


Not that I really feel a need to defend my choice of thread titles, but I would hope that would be explained in my first post  Huh
  

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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #5 - 09/28/16 at 21:25:39
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All very interesting but Greet recommends 8.e5 so a bit befuddled by the thread title.

I think Black is absolutely fine in both lines btw, 8.e5 and 8.exd5
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #4 - 08/24/15 at 07:13:00
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I played against this line in a correspondence tournament last year and felt very very comfortable with white. We reached the same position after 13 moves. My opponent then deviated from the game you gave with 13...Qb7 instead of c7. The whole game didn't look fun at all for my opponent.

  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #3 - 08/10/15 at 20:16:39
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Hmm, I was considering Nbd7 as a second option, but it seems to invite more trouble than I'd like  Sad
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #2 - 08/10/15 at 08:24:27
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They might also not want to get involved with 4 g4 after 3.. Nbd7?
  
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Re: Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
Reply #1 - 08/09/15 at 20:06:17
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It may not be totally forced, because Black can play 10...Nxd5!?

This leads to a long, semi-forced line I think:
11. Nxd5 cxd5 12. Nf5 Qf6 13. 0-0-0 0-0 14. g4!? (even though John Watson gives 14. g3 with the plan Bg2 as a good alternative).

It continues 14 ...Re8 15. Bxc5 Nxc5 16. Qxd5  Bxf5 17. Qxf5 Qxf5 18. gxf5 Re4. However, White seems better here. It might still be a slighly better practical chance in OTB play.

Anyway, White also has 8. 0-0-0, as given by Gawain Jones, and it seems to lead to an edge for White as well.
  
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Philidor with Nbd7 - Andrew Greet line?
08/09/15 at 18:07:57
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I've been looking at Andrew Greet's rather good Beating unusual chess defences. He's given my repertoire quite a severe testing  Smiley

I was also wondering why a lot of material on the Philidor (reached via 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3) recommends 3. ...e5 inviting an ending, rather than 3. ...Nbd7

It seems one of the lines recommended by Andrew Greet on p189, not the main one, as I think with 8. ...Bc5, Black is still fighting) but the game reference Polgar-Rivas 1993.

Here's a more recent example.



This line seems quite forcing, and quite 'orrible for Black  Sad

Can anyone improve for Black here? Or is Black busted in this line, and that's why 3. ...e5  Questioning
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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