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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID (Read 17357 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #28 - 12/18/15 at 18:19:47
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TonyRo wrote on 12/05/15 at 20:12:37:
I like RVK's series a lot. I have found some things here and there that I dislike or don't agree with, but if you're a relatively advanced club player looking to take up the KID, there's little better. Most of the books out on the KID now are a bit old or would be unsuitable for picking up the KID from scratch, e.g. Kotronias' massive tomes.


I see that in three days there will be another Bologan DVD, albeit with 9...Ne8 (the Banzai Variation?) in the Bayonet.
  
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WSS
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #27 - 12/07/15 at 03:30:41
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TonyRo wrote on 12/05/15 at 20:12:37:
I like RVK's series a lot. I have found some things here and there that I dislike or don't agree with, but if you're a relatively advanced club player looking to take up the KID, there's little better. Most of the books out on the KID now are a bit old or would be unsuitable for picking up the KID from scratch, e.g. Kotronias' massive tomes.


I completely agree with you Tony.  Robin's videos and ebook are well done and I found them very helpful when I switched over to the King's Indian a year and a half ago.  Paired with Vigorito's excellent two volume series and ChessPublishing analysis, I had a happy experience in my first tournament, scoring 2.5/3 in King's Indian games.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #26 - 12/05/15 at 20:12:37
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I like RVK's series a lot. I have found some things here and there that I dislike or don't agree with, but if you're a relatively advanced club player looking to take up the KID, there's little better. Most of the books out on the KID now are a bit old or would be unsuitable for picking up the KID from scratch, e.g. Kotronias' massive tomes.
  
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JEH
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #25 - 12/05/15 at 11:27:52
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WSS wrote on 12/04/15 at 22:37:48:
also recommended by GM Robin van Kampen in his "Cutting Edge King's Indian" videos and ebook on chess24.com.
                   



I am increasingly thinking I need to get this!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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chk
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #24 - 12/05/15 at 10:57:56
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It is indeed
  

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WSS
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #23 - 12/04/15 at 22:37:48
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While I don't have Marin's DVD, it appears that the line you are referring to was also recommended by GM Robin van Kampen in his "Cutting Edge King's Indian" videos and ebook on chess24.com.
  
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trandism
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #22 - 11/01/15 at 07:52:12
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Well, I want to play c5 as early as possible in this line, in order to free the bishop from supporting the d6-point. As far as I undertand it, the whole idea is to play c5 asap.

As for ommiting Bh6, it all depends on whether someone thinks that the white bishop is doing anything useful at c1(d2). It's open for debate.. The draw was easy, that's true.

In my opinion White should try to gang up against b6 if he wants to achieve something.

And there is also 10.bxa5 which is another story altogether.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #21 - 11/01/15 at 01:15:15
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Hello.
trandism wrote on 10/31/15 at 09:15:59:
In my opinion after 16.Bc1 in your main line, black should play 16...Bg7 and keep the bishops on the board.

Agreed. Also instead of (15...Bh6 16.Bc1 Bg7) the move 15...Bg7 directly looks like a refinement.

14.g3 and then 14...c5 directly as in my ml does not exactly look forced either. Maybe black can even somehow benefit from delaying this move.

trandism wrote on 10/31/15 at 09:15:59:
See a black game of mine Knittel-Sarakenidis, LSS SA-2014-0-00438 if you have LSS games in your database. I believe than in the long term black's dark-square bishop will prove more valuable than white's.

(Game below)


I checked as suggested and it looks like white got nowhere. Easy draw?

Have a nice day.
  
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trandism
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #20 - 10/31/15 at 09:15:59
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@Confused_by_theory

In my opinion after 16.Bc1 in your main line, black should play 16...Bg7 and keep the bishops on the board.

See a black game of mine Knittel-Sarakenidis, LSS SA-2014-0-00438 if you have LSS games in your database. I believe than in the long term black's dark-square bishop will prove more valuable than white's.



  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #19 - 10/23/15 at 13:30:05
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Hello.

I took a look at this line today and thought that I might as well post a PGN with my analysis.


Have a nice day.
  
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trandism
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #18 - 09/29/15 at 11:09:33
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I think Black is OK after both 13.Re1 and 13.Qd3.

After 13.Re1 he just plays the plan of pushing c5 and then returning his pieces to their optimal positions (Bishop back to g7(h6) and Rook back to f8):
e.g
13.Re1 Bf8 14.g3 c5 15.Ba3 Bh6

After 13.Qd3 black has to play the fantastic resource 13...Nf5! to keep the balance.
  
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chk
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #17 - 09/11/15 at 08:29:26
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Thanks a lot to both, I really liked his coverage of the Dutch Leningrad and consider getting this also.
  

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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #16 - 09/10/15 at 10:30:02
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For anyone interested this is an overview pic of what's covered: http://postimg.org/image/hm5qec541/full/
  
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #15 - 09/10/15 at 09:44:22
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I have watched this presentation now. Liked it a lot! His philosophy against the Bayonet is to avoid the Ng5-e6-Bxe6 type positions and aim for a more strategic set up.

Nice explanations of specific piece placements and tactics to deal with the White set ups, and also a view on where he thinks the theoretical development of the line might go.

Amazing what he packed into an hour  Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #14 - 09/03/15 at 23:04:03
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I have not seen the video, but have played the KID for a number of years.
I found black's play there to be weak. Lots of mindless shuffling. Any sample games where it looks like black has any idea about the KID and is not just a beginner copying moves from software?

As I see it, black needs to play ...f5.
Helpful to keep a knight out of g5 and e6 I guess.
Q-side is safe enough, enough pieces there to defend as and when attacked (or to place one-two prophylactically, ready) no need to throw all pieces over there as black unthinkingly did.
Nh5-f4/g7 (latterly, the Bologan/Lanka knight-fianchetto, as seen in an other line) depending, eventual f5 to follow....

  
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FirebrandX
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #13 - 09/03/15 at 13:17:23
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I like to put these proposed repertoires to the cc database test, and I have to say I'm not entirely impressed with the performance of 12...Re8 in the line given:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. b4 a5 10. Ba3 axb4 11. Bxb4 b6 12. a4 Re8

And my database shows black doing VERY poorly against 13. Re1 and almost as poorly against 13. Qd3. When I look at the 13. Re1 wins, they appear to be the kind that maintain white's lasting advantage while positional play causes black to have to try and plug holes in the proverbial dam until it falls apart.

Here's and example cc game that demonstrates this:





  
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kylemeister
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #12 - 08/24/15 at 05:37:56
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Well surely 9...a5 can be described as one of the two traditional main moves, and both it and 9...Nh5 are principled in their way.

Another note about 12...Re8 -- it was treated as the main move (via 10. Ba3 b6 11. ba Rxa5 12. Bb4 Ra8 13. a4 Re8) by Panczyk and Ilczuk in The Classical King's Indian Uncovered from 2009.  ("Developed by the Latvian grandmaster, Zigurds Lanka, in the late 1990s; the idea is to protect the d-pawn with ...Bf8 and play ...c7-c5.")
  
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #11 - 08/24/15 at 04:37:25
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Interesting.  I had always thought of 9...a5 as a perfectly reasonable way for black to ensure he suffered for as long as possible.  Apparently that isn't the case?

I really just don't know, although if you'd care to debate 9...Nh5 10. Re1 vs. 10. g3 I might have something useful to say.  I always thought that 9...Nh5 was just the move, despite 9...a5's GM adherents, since it seems more "principled," but it isn't like you're going to crush people out of the opening with 9...Nh5 either.  The Bayonet is always a slog.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #10 - 08/23/15 at 18:22:00
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The main tactical idea is that Black can now meet a5 with ...c5, as taking en passant and on d6 no longer hits the rook. The second idea is that once Black plays ...c5 and recaptured on c6 with the knight, ...Nd4 is harder to deal with, as captures activate the rook.
  
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #9 - 08/23/15 at 17:18:30
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Anyone care to explain the ideas behind 12...Re8 to me?
  
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #8 - 08/23/15 at 07:48:32
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I've finally bought the DVD. Confirmed, it's about the Lanka / Berg's line:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. b4 a5 10. Ba3 axb4 11. Bxb4 b6 12. a4 Re8
Very interesting indeed. Another weapon for my arsenal.
  
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #7 - 08/18/15 at 21:53:54
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I put a lot of work into 12...Re8 and honestly couldn't find an edge for White. Also in the Silva-Collins game Black seems fine in the position after 17...Bd7 - Black is exchanging his bad dark-squared bishop, White can't easily make inroads on the queenside with b7 easy to cover and the a-pawn blockaded, plus Black has the d4-square to compensate White's grip over e4. I know the engine tends to slightly favour White in such positions but suggesting a good plan is another matter. Actually I would be tempted by 17...Bxc1 as well.
  

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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #6 - 08/18/15 at 19:44:11
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Golubev also spent some time on this variation in his book Understanding the King's Indian from 2006.

Besides the several games by Lanka, Golubev has also tried the line several times himself. Both are more recognized authorities on the KID than Berg and apparently played it earlier...

Btw. players like Alexei Shirov and Viktor Bologan have trained with Lanka, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are games by them as well.
  

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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #5 - 08/18/15 at 17:12:43
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Fllg wrote on 08/18/15 at 16:18:08:
Going into "Kylemeister-Mode"  Wink I have to say that this is not Berg´s invention. I recall some games by Zigurds Lanka at the end of the 1990´s. There might even have been an article about it in NiC around the time by Lanka but I´m not really sure about this.  Smiley


I think you may be referring to "Lanka's shocking 12...Re8" by Golubev in YB 52 (1999)    Smiley
  
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #4 - 08/18/15 at 17:10:45
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Fllg wrote on 08/18/15 at 16:18:08:
I have to say that this is not Berg´s invention.

Grin

I knew one of the history police would chime in here, but I reject your counterargument on the grounds that Berg has played this variation the most, and is the one who really legitimized it in my opinion. The only other guy who I really associate with this line is the Chinese GM Jiangchuan Ye, who played it in maybe 4-6 games against the very best - I recall games against Bacrot, Van Wely, and Kasimdhanoz, but maybe I'm off there...
  
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #3 - 08/18/15 at 16:18:08
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TonyRo wrote on 08/18/15 at 04:29:18:
PS - After 9...a5 10.Ba3 I like Berg's 10...axb4 11.Bxb4 b6 12.a4 Re8!?


Going into "Kylemeister-Mode"  Wink I have to say that this is not Berg´s invention. I recall some games by Zigurds Lanka at the end of the 1990´s. There might even have been an article about it in NiC around the time by Lanka but I´m not really sure about this.  Smiley
  
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #2 - 08/18/15 at 04:29:18
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To add another layer to this post, when I looked at 9...a5 I thought that 10.bxa5! was actually somewhat annoying. Not sure I ever found a really convincing improvement over L.Silva-S.Collins, Lisbon 2014, which continued:



Yes, Black won, but to me White looks to be for choice after 17.Bd3.

PS - After 9...a5 10.Ba3 I like Berg's 10...axb4 11.Bxb4 b6 12.a4 Re8!?
  
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Re: Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
Reply #1 - 08/18/15 at 02:37:42
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Me too. Interested as Marin's Pirc DVDS were impressive and he does seem to be a very good author.
Anyone?
  
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Marin's Anti-Bayonet-Attack in the KID
08/17/15 at 08:46:31
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I'm thinking of buying this ChessBase DVD but first I'd like to know if it's worth enough and what's the reccomendation against 9...a5 10. Ba3. Has anyone bought it?
  
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