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Normal Topic Important London Move Order (Read 3335 times)
RdC
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Re: Important London Move Order
Reply #5 - 08/25/15 at 09:36:54
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Bibs wrote on 08/24/15 at 23:31:52:
The Grischuk mauling of Anand of likely interest here:


You can get the same position from a Trompovsky



The new or newish idea appears to be just developing with Nf3. In earlier games, they tried Qd4. But Anand did seem to later collapse in what appeared a simple position.

  
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Bibs
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Re: Important London Move Order
Reply #4 - 08/24/15 at 23:31:52
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The Grischuk mauling of Anand of likely interest here:

http://www.chessdom.com/3rd-sinquefield-cup-2015-live/
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Important London Move Order
Reply #3 - 08/24/15 at 16:52:47
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I noticed that problem something like 2 years ago (the London is my main White weapon in competitive chess for about 3 years now), when a 2200+ opponent used it against me. On blitz I have played against some guys using the same idea so I have done my homeworks. First you have to know that allowing equality for Black quite easily is normal in the London and there is many ways to have equality for Black. Despite that I have won a lot of games from an equal opening in the London. The idea should be to understand the position, to like your White position and trying to tame Black's counterplay while trying to do something yourself.

About your line B: I am not convinced by 7.f4 here because the knight is already on d2 so 7..cxd4 seems quite good for Black because the typical 8.exd4 gives f4.

About your 7.c4 line, your idea is interesting but what about 5..Qb6, or 5..Bd6 6.Bg3 0-0? In the second case you still want to avoid 7.c3 Qc7 with 7.Bd3?

So about my analysis: I have not found a satisfactory way of preventing Black to play e5 with this Black's move order, but you have 3 ways to deal with it.

The most experimental but maybe visually least convincing  is maybe to use the same idea I have tried over the board against my 2200 opponent, the game was not too bad for me (I lost that game but not because of the opening) I tried it against in correspondance game with a draw (with Black playing with 0-0 instead of Nbd7). The idea is to play  8.b4!?, that's my OTB novelty, a pure human improvisation. The computer "thinks" it's "OK". The idea is to tactically avoid Black from playing e5, that's maybe the only way to do so. Because of the pin on the h2-b8 diagonal, the b4 pawn is not lost. Of course the idea is not only to avoid e5, maybe it's only slowing it, but White can try to play on the queenside with this move. One of the most logical response for Black is to play 8..b6, maintaining the tension. Here, the surprising 9.c4!? is ok, changing the nature of the normal play. Another idea instead of 9.c4 is something like 9.a4 with a5 in mind, but it could be a bit slow here.

The second idea is to develop normaly and let Black play e5 without any special counter-move. Something like 8.Bd3 0-0 9.0-0 (9.Bxd6 first if you want to avoid 9..Bxg3 lines) 9..e5 (or 9..Bxg3 followed by 10..e5) 10.dxe5 when you have an important position of the Slav with a tempo up and reversed color, or a Fort Knox reversed (one of it's best version) with 2 tempi up. I advice you to study deeply these positions, even if it looks passive, Black players managed to win with Black at GM level with patience and technical play. If your opponent is weaker you may win anyway, if he is at the same level or better, a possible draw is not too bad.

The third idea is the same as the second, but more active and ambitious: you allow e5 with a counterpush:
8.Bd3 0-0 9.0-0 e5 10.e4! where the center explodes and the game is a bit umbalanced. White may even hope for a small advantage here but it's about equal.

Waiting for your feed back!

ArKheiN
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: Important London Move Order
Reply #2 - 08/24/15 at 04:30:53
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Jupp53 wrote on 08/24/15 at 01:17:55:
What's new about this? Playing with black now 4... Qa5+ and 5... Qxc5 seems leading to an equal position too.

I want the main discussion of this thread to be about the ...e6 lines. However, after 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.dxc5! Qa5+ 5.Nc3 Qxc5, Prie has shown that White is better with 6.Nb5 Na6 7.Be5!
  
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Re: Important London Move Order
Reply #1 - 08/24/15 at 01:17:55
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What's new about this? Playing with black now 4... Qa5+ and 5... Qxc5 seems leading to an equal position too.
  

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Anonymous3
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Important London Move Order
08/24/15 at 00:34:22
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1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 e6 and now

A) If 4.Nf3 c5, 5.c3 is the most common reply but I think this allows Black easy equality with 5...Bd6 6.Bg3 (Prie has shown Ne5 to be dubious in this type of position) 6...Qc7! 7.Nbd2 Nbd7! and White has no good way to prevent Black from playing ...e5.

B) If 4.Nd2 c5, 5.c3 is the most common reply but I think that allows Black easy equality with 5...Bd6 6.Bg3 (Prie has shown 6.Bxd6 7.Qxf6 7.f4 to give White nothing in this type of position) 6...Qc7! 7.f4!? (Mentioned in Win with the London System. 7.Ngf3 Nbd7! transposes to line A). I think Black is at least = here.

Therefore, I think White should play 5. Nbd2! in line A and 5.Ngf3! in line B, which come to the same thing. If Black tries the same idea as in the above lines 5...Bd6 6.Bg3 Qc7, White has 7.c4! planning Rc1 to take advantage of the placement of Blacks queen on c7.

If my above analysis is correct, it means after 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5, 4.c3 would allow easy equality after 4...e6 since 5.Nf3 and 5.Nd2 would transpose to lines A and B above. However, I think Black can already gain easy equality against 4.c3 with 4...Nc6 5.Nd2 Bf5 (and possibly several other lines as well) and thus should meet 3...c5 with the new 4.dxc5! 

Thoughts?
  
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