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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C18 : Positional Winawer for White (Read 13984 times)
Keano
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #18 - 09/10/15 at 22:42:42
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CanadianClub wrote on 09/10/15 at 12:02:58:
Going nowhere, when you're talking about opening theory and specially with White, is getting zero opening advantage. Of course, being familiar with the positions (experience), knowing all the nuances of the pawn structures and being a strong GM gives you a edge for sure.

If you like to play a concrete equal position (not a boring one; Winawer structures are always interesting to play), study it and you will get some full-points from it for sure. But if your oponent knows it.... well, equality is equality and it's a shame not opting for -almost- an edge begin White.

Salut,


I play the Winawer and I'd hardly say its "equal" . I know what you're trying to say mind, but the positional Winawer will always remain a valid option to play for advantage.

  
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MartinC
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #17 - 09/10/15 at 13:10:01
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Not at all sure you can call 7 Qg4 almost an edge any more.

Probably fair vs 7 .. o-o, but the PPawn has somehow got awfully respectable over the past few years in the slightly random way these things sometimes seem to happen.

Even Negi say tried vaguely novel stuff vs it.
  
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CanadianClub
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #16 - 09/10/15 at 12:02:58
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Keano wrote on 09/09/15 at 20:08:08:
CanadianClub wrote on 09/04/15 at 07:58:41:
You are going nowhere in the positional Winawer with White, I think. The only real try for an advantage (if you don't like Qg4) is a quick h4 and manouvres like Nh3-f4-h5. If you played French as Black you know it for sure.

Other interesting lines in the Winawer for White are Qd3 lines and even Nge2 (Dejan Bojkov has a ChessBase monograph on it: Unorthodox against the French Winawer).

And another strategy would be to follow a GM who employs that lines with some success. I don't know who can this player would be.

It's strange to try to beat YOUR pet opening... Smiley

Good luck !


going nowhere is strong words, strong GM's like John Nunn made a living out of playing the positional lines.


Going nowhere, when you're talking about opening theory and specially with White, is getting zero opening advantage. Of course, being familiar with the positions (experience), knowing all the nuances of the pawn structures and being a strong GM gives you a edge for sure.

If you like to play a concrete equal position (not a boring one; Winawer structures are always interesting to play), study it and you will get some full-points from it for sure. But if your oponent knows it.... well, equality is equality and it's a shame not opting for -almost- an edge begin White.

Salut,
  
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Keano
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #15 - 09/09/15 at 20:08:08
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CanadianClub wrote on 09/04/15 at 07:58:41:
You are going nowhere in the positional Winawer with White, I think. The only real try for an advantage (if you don't like Qg4) is a quick h4 and manouvres like Nh3-f4-h5. If you played French as Black you know it for sure.

Other interesting lines in the Winawer for White are Qd3 lines and even Nge2 (Dejan Bojkov has a ChessBase monograph on it: Unorthodox against the French Winawer).

And another strategy would be to follow a GM who employs that lines with some success. I don't know who can this player would be.

It's strange to try to beat YOUR pet opening... Smiley

Good luck !


going nowhere is strong words, strong GM's like John Nunn made a living out of playing the positional lines.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #14 - 09/04/15 at 18:25:55
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Its the following it up with Bb7 instead of Ba6 that seems to have really vanished. Reverse KID style stuff.

Maybe it was the sort of thing that needed Petrosian to make it work Smiley

  
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #13 - 09/04/15 at 17:55:07
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kylemeister wrote on 09/04/15 at 16:11:31:
Also during the Moles/Wicker decade, the b6/Qd7 stuff was one of Portisch's repertoire suggestions in How to Open a Chess Game.


Yep, along with the Qa5-a4 line, and it's from this book I started playing those.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #12 - 09/04/15 at 16:11:31
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Also during the Moles/Wicker decade, the b6/Qd7 stuff was one of Portisch's repertoire suggestions in How to Open a Chess Game.
  
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #11 - 09/04/15 at 15:35:12
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MartinC wrote on 09/04/15 at 08:06:22:
The stuff in those Moles/Wickers books about the b6/Qd7 lines is fascinating. Best I can tell the whole approach with Bb7/Nc6 has I think vanished from even mention everywhere else.

Maybe only Petrosian could make it work Wink
(Although multiple other very strong Russian GM's mentioned as using it back in the day.).

Actually there is a fairly recent repertoire book (in German) which recommended one of these lines:

http://www.amazon.de/Gegenspiel-dynamisches-Schwarzrepertoire-Reinhold-Ripperger...

I believe the choice was 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Qd7, but I'm not sure. I have only browsed the book at a bookstall, not actually bought it (a bit skeptical of virtually unknown players who are weaker than me writing books, though of course they may turn out to be good).
  

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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #10 - 09/04/15 at 10:36:13
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MartinC wrote on 09/04/15 at 10:01:46:
On the other hand, iirc, If black is out to be dull it will be http://www.chesspub.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/smiley.gif


If Black is out to be dull, why are they playing the Winawer  Grin [he says having to admit having played the Fort Knox himself a lot  Embarrassed]
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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MartinC
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #9 - 09/04/15 at 10:01:46
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Think you'll get decent punch from 4 Nge2 actually. An awful lot of black repetoire books have been trying to provoke a fight against it by recommending Nc6.

Which no doubt is a decent enough move, but provoking a fight as black will of course always give both sides chances.

On the other hand, iirc, If black is out to be dull it will be Smiley

4 a3 is far from terrible and thoroughly unbalanced. Good enough for Smyslov in a few WC games.
  
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JEH
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #8 - 09/04/15 at 09:53:35
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CanadianClub wrote on 09/04/15 at 07:58:41:
Other interesting lines in the Winawer for White are Qd3 lines and even Nge2 (Dejan Bojkov has a ChessBase monograph on it: Unorthodox against the French Winawer).



Interesting, I might look into this. It's not that I don't like Qg4, I guess what I'm after is a stepping stone to get my Nc3 up and running, move onto the PP later, and was thinking of the Positional lines first, but this might be another approach.

I played Nge2 way way back and expect it is no less harmless than my current KIA, but might suffice initially.

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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MartinC
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #7 - 09/04/15 at 08:06:22
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They're still very complex/difficult sorts of positions to play,  so plenty of scope Smiley

The stuff in those Moles/Wickers books about the b6/Qd7 lines is fascinating. Best I can tell the whole approach with Bb7/Nc6 has I think vanished from even mention everywhere else.

Maybe only Petrosian could make it work Wink
(Although multiple other very strong Russian GM's mentioned as using it back in the day.).
  
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CanadianClub
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #6 - 09/04/15 at 07:58:41
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You are going nowhere in the positional Winawer with White, I think. The only real try for an advantage (if you don't like Qg4) is a quick h4 and manouvres like Nh3-f4-h5. If you played French as Black you know it for sure.

Other interesting lines in the Winawer for White are Qd3 lines and even Nge2 (Dejan Bojkov has a ChessBase monograph on it: Unorthodox against the French Winawer).

And another strategy would be to follow a GM who employs that lines with some success. I don't know who can this player would be.

It's strange to try to beat YOUR pet opening... Smiley

Good luck !
  
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #5 - 09/04/15 at 00:29:46
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Moles and Wicker / Moles
Classics.
I have the second one on my shelf just behind my PC right now. Cheap enough, and I think you'll find these texts interesting.
Great on stuff like ...b6, ...Qd7 lines particularly. Old, yes, but gives ideas.

http://www.amazon.com/French-Defence-Winawer-Contemporary-Openings/dp/0713429216
http://www.amazon.com/French-Winawer-Auxiliary-Contemporary-Openings/dp/07134203...
  
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JEH
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Re: Positional Winawer for White
Reply #4 - 09/03/15 at 20:38:17
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Thanks for the replies. I've got PtF3, and I have been checking it. I like checking repertoire books for the other side if I have them, although I was a Frenchie myself at one point (played the Qa5-a4 Winawer and various other side lines)

ruhroh wrote on 09/03/15 at 18:47:31:
Steve Giddens' book sounds perfect for what you want.


Thanks. I was fishing for a recommendation for this one.


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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