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Poll closed Question: Which is the theoretically best line against the Pirc?
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Accelerated Classical (Be3, Nf3, h3 in some order)    
  1 (2.9%)
Accelerated Classical w/o h3 (Be3, Nf3 some order)    
  0 (0.0%)
Archbishop with bishop (Be3, h3, g4 some order)    
  3 (8.8%)
Archbishop with knight (Nge2, h3, g4 some order)    
  0 (0.0%)
Argentinian (Be3, f3, Qd2 in some order)    
  2 (5.9%)
Argentinian hurried (4.f3, 5.g4)    
  0 (0.0%)
Austrian (4.f4)    
  11 (32.4%)
Austrian delayed (Be3, h3, f4 in some order)    
  2 (5.9%)
Byrne (4.Bg5)    
  6 (17.6%)
Classical (4.Nf3, 5.Be2)    
  3 (8.8%)
Double bishop (Be3, Be2 in some order)    
  0 (0.0%)
Fianchetto (4.g3)    
  1 (2.9%)
One fifty (4.Be3, 5.Qd2)    
  2 (5.9%)
One fifty with Nf3 (Be3, Qd2, Nf3 in some order)    
  2 (5.9%)
Other line    
  1 (2.9%)




Total votes: 34
« Created by: Confused_by_Theory on: 12/02/15 at 08:09:17 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll (Read 18310 times)
DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #14 - 12/03/15 at 22:38:20
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I have a better record with the Pirc than the Sicilian and French, but I am not disturbed if people underestimate it. If 1. e4 players think that they can just play it by wings and throw the pawns up the board, play Dd2 and Lh6 and win, it just does not work that way.

As a Pirc player, I am not really afraid of the Austrian. It is sharp, but not like the Botwinnik Semi-Slaw nor Najdorf 6. Lg5. As a player of Pirc, you have to analyse a lot by yourself, and often come up with new positions and analyses. I analyse for example main line with 9. Lc4 Sd7 interesting after the 8...Lg4, which I think is the best choice ws. Austrian. I analysed this last night for hours with Komodo 7 and Stockfish running, and I dare say that I would try this against a 2500-2600 (I already played Pirc against 2530 last time), so from what I can see Black can get counterplay, but you must do home analyses on your own. I analysed some of it to past move 25 even if unncessary, because a 1. e4 player is usually not that booked up on this line to just remember everything given that the Pirc is less common than the Sicilian or French.

For 6. e5 in the Austrian after 5...0-0, I played 6...Sfd7 7. Lc4 Sb6 8. Lb3 and then I had some problems in the opening. So I would play 6...dxe5 7. fxe5 Sd5 8. Lc4 Le6 9. Sxd5 Lxd5 10. Lxd5 Dxd5 11. De2 and I think Black has quite a few interesting possibilities here. I analysed this for about a week and I came up with some stuff. I may have went overbord because some I analysed past move 40. I leave it at that Smiley

I skould also mention, in tournament play, when I played 1. e4, which is actually a years ago, I faced the Pirc rather rarely. But when I did play against it, I had a  bad record. 0 wins and something like 3 losses against 2250, 2300, 2400 and 1 draw against a lower rated. One loss I was already probably -4 by move 20. I used to play the 150 Attack, thinking I can just win by castling and launching the pawns on the kingside. Instead what happens is that I end up being mated. Maybe that also and my problems with playing White. I mean at least I won a lot more times against the Sicilian, French, and 1...e5 than the Pirc Cheesy
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #13 - 12/03/15 at 22:15:21
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4.f4, 4.Be3 and 4.Nf3 are all +=
  

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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #12 - 12/03/15 at 17:57:14
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4.Be3 5.Qd2 allows white at my level (~Elo 2000) to wait for Blacks decisions and react accordingly. B.e. Bh6 only after Bg7 or Ng4 - Bg5 or 0-0-0 according to the position and fighting mood.

As I don't know the the theoretical lines this gives a way to get a game against Pirc and the Modern, which both doesn't appear so often in my games. Looking for those ideas allows preparing more important openings.
  

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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #11 - 12/03/15 at 13:36:56
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Hello.

MartinC wrote on 12/02/15 at 15:33:46:
Poll probably very slightly misguided in that the basic 'problem' is probably more that white has a lot of at least moderately dangerous options rather than one specifically terrifying one.

Maybe.

I considered a multiple votes enabled poll to allow people to pick a few dangerous lines. I thought this would dilute the value of the result quite much though.

kevinludwig wrote on 12/02/15 at 18:31:50:
I see the poll now, but it doesn't accurately reflect that white can choose between the Argentinian (Be3/Qd2/f3) and Be3/Qd2/Bd3/0-0, depending on how black chooses to defend (e.g. the recommendations I have seen are that white should play Be3, Qd2, and if black commits to Bg7 then f3 and all out attack, or if black delays Bg7 (with c6, b5, Nbd7, etc.) then Bd3 and 0-0 and try to exploit queenside weaknesses.

There are branching points in the various variations listed. The poll cannot account for these branches though, because of space reasons. Anyway, to get to this branching point you play the "One fifty (4.Be3, 5.Qd2)" so this is where the vote should fall even if it is not until later you really define your setup.

kevinludwig wrote on 12/02/15 at 18:31:50:
Also I don't see the g3/h3/Bg2/Nge2 stuff, which I thought was a decent option for white.

"Fianchetto (4.g3)" would be the poll option in this case.

Gut Gambit wrote on 12/02/15 at 20:17:46:
Checking the statistics in my updated TWIC-base, Byrnes move 4.Bg5 is the best scoring move.

Interesting that white scores so well in practice.

kylemeister wrote on 12/02/15 at 21:27:52:
A few updates ago Milos Pavlovic referred to the Austrian as "dangerous" and "probably one of the best systems for White."  I doubt it's just a matter of White choosing between a forced draw, a harmless variation or an inferior endgame ...

What puts me off 5...c5 is mainly:

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.0-0 c5 6.dxc5 Qa5 7.Qd4)
Where I've managed to convince myself that black needs either to play 7...dxc5 (ugh...) or 7...0-0 with a forcing line ending up in an endgame.

+

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.0-0 c5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.e5 Ng4 8.Bxd7+ Qxd7 9.d5 dxe5 10.h3 e4 11.hxg4)
Where I need to know many more pretty much forcing moves.

also there is the draw issue, where you need to consider if you want to play

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.0-0 c5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.e5 Ng4 8.e6 Bxb5 9.Kf8 (9...Kd7)

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #10 - 12/02/15 at 21:27:52
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A few updates ago Milos Pavlovic referred to the Austrian as "dangerous" and "probably one of the best systems for White."  I doubt it's just a matter of White choosing between a forced draw, a harmless variation or an inferior endgame ...
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #9 - 12/02/15 at 20:17:46
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Checking the statistics in my updated TWIC-base, Byrnes move 4.Bg5 is the best scoring move. Moreover, after the very natural 4...Bg7, white has no less than three good options:

5.f4
5.Qd2 and also
5.e5

White scores heavily in these lines (over 60% in each line).

However, I dont have Megabase 2016.I suppose this database contains more games and so could provide another variation as "best".

I dont know very much on the Pirc system. But the 4.Bg5 must be of practical consern for Pirc players, in addition to other lines already mentioned.

GG
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #8 - 12/02/15 at 20:07:15
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I do not understand this so much, the Pirc is sound I do not why it is so much pressurised, it might be me biased but the Pirc is my main Black opening for 1. e4. Smiley

The Austrian is dangerous for both White and Black. If Black makes a mistake in some of the sharp positions, she can lose badly. But also if White mishandles the position, Black can destroy the centre and White can end up in a clearly worse or ,lost position as well. It works both ways. It is not like the Austraian guarantees a win for White.

I found that the Argentinian 4. Le3 variations with f3 and g4 are kind of trying to mimik the Jugoslaw in the Dragon. But I play 4...c6 and delay ...Lg7, usually the main line with ....Sbd7/...b5. There is some analyses in the bog of Moskalenko and I think Vigus here. Personally I prefer to play Black here. You can even play ...Tg8 or allow the exchange if White wants to force h5 you go ...Sg7 and allow the hxg6 hxg6 and just go on with ...b4 and stuff.

As a 4. Le3 c6 player, the 4. Le3 with h3, bluffing to guess Black if she tries g4 is a bit more challenging. I did quite a lot of analysis here and read some of the bogs of Vigus (Chess Developments) and Moskalenko bog. I am looking at my file for this line, and what I often do is to seek counterplay with ...b4, and press the ...c5 lever. Keep the tension like this unless White defines it. Otherwise keep developing. I often have the double fianchetto going in this line. If I had to play White (I would not Cheesy), I would probably choose this as the most challening like to try for some advantage (although I would work to neutralise it as Black Smiley

Austrian Delayed is kind of similar, where you play f4 if Black does something else. I would play the same setup here.

Any 150 stuff I am just not scared of. It is played a lot though, Black has a few setups, if you want the delay the fianchetto and do ...Sbd7/...b5. If you want ...Lg7 you can, but you kind of give White her goal. I prefer the delayed fianchetto by forcing ...b5 or at least if you fianchetto go ...e5 to fix the pawn structure. Positionally I like playing Black here.

The Classical I go 6. 0-0 c6. I just see no White advantage here. It is just a game where a better player wins. I lost a game last time in the tournament I played this line as Black. But okay, the opponent was a GM. Just going like a KID where White has no useful c4 in the pawn phalanx makes it more comfortable for Black than in the KID to me.

Accelerated Classical I just aim to setup ...c6 and ...e5 and let it fix the pawn structure and try to use the tempo White spent on h3 to set the desired pawn structure as quick as possible.

Everything else to me is not critical. Theoretically critical, that will say. The other lines are just to get a game and play. Whoever plays better middlegame and endgame after the opening phase in lines like 4. g3 or stuff like the Classical should win.

Summary: White has a lot of options, yes, but Black does too. It is a flexible defence, as far as I know the aim is to react based on how White does with all sorts of attacking options. For all reactions is there an equal and opposite reaction.

Views from an avid Pirc player  Cool
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #7 - 12/02/15 at 18:31:50
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why would the austrian be an issue? if black plays the c5 line, isn't white choosing between a relatively harmless sicilian like variation, or a forced draw, or an inferior endgame? It was certainly never the thing I was afraid of when I played the pirc.

I can't vote but I would think the Be3, Qd2 lines where white can switch back to kingside castling (whatever that's called) would be one top choice.

EDIT:
I see the poll now, but it doesn't accurately reflect that white can choose between the Argentinian (Be3/Qd2/f3) and Be3/Qd2/Bd3/0-0, depending on how black chooses to defend (e.g. the recommendations I have seen are that white should play Be3, Qd2, and if black commits to Bg7 then f3 and all out attack, or if black delays Bg7 (with c6, b5, Nbd7, etc.) then Bd3 and 0-0 and try to exploit queenside weaknesses.

Also I don't see the g3/h3/Bg2/Nge2 stuff, which I thought was a decent option for white.
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #6 - 12/02/15 at 16:59:11
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MartinC wrote on 12/02/15 at 15:33:46:
You'd have thought the 150 might give the Austrian a close run?


I think the 150 is fine for Black in theory.

Closer runners I would think would be the Argentinian, the Bg5 Byrne and the Karpov Classical

MartinC wrote on 12/02/15 at 15:33:46:
Poll probably very slightly misguided in that the basic 'problem' is probably more that white has a lot of at least moderately dangerous options rather than one specifically terrifying one.


Agree!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #5 - 12/02/15 at 16:57:10
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MartinC wrote on 12/02/15 at 15:33:46:
You'd have thought the 150 might give the Austrian a close run?


I think the 150 is fine for Black in theory.

Closer runners I would think would be the Argentinian and the Karpov Classical
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #4 - 12/02/15 at 15:33:46
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You'd have thought the 150 might give the Austrian a close run?

Poll probably very slightly misguided in that the basic 'problem' is probably more that white has a lot of at least moderately dangerous options rather than one specifically terrifying one.
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #3 - 12/02/15 at 14:31:17
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 12/02/15 at 10:39:02:
I would be surprised if it isn't the Austrian by a large margin.

Well yea. Very likely.

I would still expect some kind of spread. As I'm writing this the Austrian has four out of five votes (80%) though, so we will see about that.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #2 - 12/02/15 at 10:39:02
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I would be surprised if it isn't the Austrian by a large margin.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #1 - 12/02/15 at 09:00:29
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I said Archbishop with Be3.
For no other reason than that it was me who named it that.
  
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B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
12/02/15 at 08:09:17
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Hello Chesspub.

The Pirc defence:
(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6)
Is an opening that seems to have its soundness questioned from time to time here on chesspublishing forum. I have wondered why this is. To help find out I thought of making this poll about various lines in the Pirc. We will see how the answers stack up in a few months, though feel free to discuss in the comment section until then. If answering other line feel free to specify what in the comment section.

About the poll:
Poll running time 90 days.
Members poll
One option poll
Lines listed alphabetically.
Line names not claimed to be in universal use.

Have a nice day everyone.
  
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