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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6 (Read 11523 times)
Bibs
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #20 - 01/16/16 at 00:45:21
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Helpfully, the Laznicka play does accord pretty much exactly with my advice in #reply 8.
Well, for anyone who has spent time in Tromp land, it's familiar and obvious. For me, around 25 years there.
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #19 - 01/16/16 at 00:31:07
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kylemeister wrote on 01/15/16 at 18:28:40:
By the way, the "likely '+=' position" (Palliser) arising after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 g6 3. Bxf6 ef 4. e3 f5 5. Ne2 Bg7 6. g3 0-0 7. Bg2 d6 8. c4 Nd7 9. Nbc3 comes up (via 2...d6) in the new d-Pawn Specials update.


I have played that position probably hundreds of times online.
And played that immediate b4 myself plenty too, so not 'N' for me or my blitz opponents!
It's just easy for white.
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #18 - 01/15/16 at 18:28:40
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By the way, the "likely '+=' position" (Palliser) arising after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 g6 3. Bxf6 ef 4. e3 f5 5. Ne2 Bg7 6. g3 0-0 7. Bg2 d6 8. c4 Nd7 9. Nbc3 comes up (via 2...d6) in the new d-Pawn Specials update.
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #17 - 12/12/15 at 16:38:47
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I noticed that Kramnik, Aronian and Grischuk have, in blitz, played 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 g6 3. Bxf6 ef 4. e3 d5 followed by ...Bd6. 

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Bg5 has been called the "Seirawan-Indian"; I recall it coming up here before, but probably not in much detail. 
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #16 - 12/12/15 at 13:26:25
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JEH wrote on 12/11/15 at 11:04:11:
Yes, that's a definite possible, but can White transpose you into a Nimzo or QGD by not taking?



That would be possible, although Black still has the option of playing .. h6. The line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Bg5 is established theory, the sequence 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Bg5 rather less so. There are some games out there where it has been tried.

Bogo-Indian theory may apply as well.

JEH wrote on 12/11/15 at 11:04:11:
When I looked at the g6 lines with d5 (I think the Tromp and Veresov can transpose here), I'd noticed Black going Bd6 anyway, and so it seemed to me g6 was a waste of time.


In the sequence, 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 d5 3. Bxf6 exf6, Black will often later place the Bishop on d6. The problem can be getting White to take on f6 in the first place and playing 2. .. g6 may offer the necessary temptation.
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #15 - 12/12/15 at 04:20:43
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I think if you want to play fianchetto against Weresow, I would just transpose to the Pirc Cheesy, 1. d4 Cf6 2. Cc3 g6!, so 3. e4 d6.

Otherwise this line you give I personally dislike because White can try to ruin the pawns with Bxf6 and I think that this setup with a pawn on d5 Black has less dynamic play. Although Black has a slight good thing that White cannot play c4 so easily with the knight on c3 like in the Trompowsky 2...g6 line. In that line I think that White's play is too easy, in my opinion.
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #14 - 12/11/15 at 11:04:11
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RdC wrote on 12/11/15 at 10:48:51:
Defending the Tromp with 2. .. e6 is one of the simpler methods. It either transposes to a Torre, or after 3. e4 h6 4. Bxf6 Qxf6, Black has a number of solid plans and a Bishop pair for the longer term.


Yes, that's a definite possible, but can White transpose you into a Nimzo or QGD by not taking?

RdC wrote on 12/11/15 at 10:48:51:
Playing 3. .. e6 after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 could be liable to provoke a French after 4. e4. There are some new ideas in the McCutcheon with 4. .. Bb4 so that might be an option as a specialist reserve weapon with the move order precluding other French variations.


The French is no longer part of my repertoire. I can offer a Pirc transposition though. I'm looking to playing d5 against the Veresov though as another option.

When I looked at the g6 lines with d5 (I think the Tromp and Veresov can transpose here), I'd noticed Black going Bd6 anyway, and so it seemed to me g6 was a waste of time.

Happy to discuss anti-Tromp/Veresov options, plus anti-Torre too, as my next project is to add 1. d4 Nf6 properly to my repertoire (as an addition to 1. d4 d6), but that's drifting off topic.


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #13 - 12/11/15 at 10:48:51
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JEH wrote on 12/10/15 at 13:52:23:
As for g6, well I think for now, "You're fired!"   Smiley



Defending the Tromp with 2. .. e6 is one of the simpler methods. It either transposes to a Torre, or after 3. e4 h6 4. Bxf6 Qxf6, Black has a number of solid plans and a Bishop pair for the longer term.

Playing 3. .. e6 after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 could be liable to provoke a French after 4. e4. There are some new ideas in the McCutcheon with 4. .. Bb4 so that might be an option as a specialist reserve weapon with the move order precluding other French variations.
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #12 - 12/10/15 at 13:52:23
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chk wrote on 12/10/15 at 10:22:03:
A couple of months ago I was in JEH's position and had a serious look at (the lazy indeed) 2...g6. Played it also in a few blitz games with great results and was ready to do some research (starting from ChessPub). Nevertheless, was dissapointed when started to seriously analyse this. Black is paasive and this does not turn out as a good, Stonewall-ish position.


Thanks for the replies guys. I was being tempted along this very journey, and you saved me the waste of time  Cool

Haven't decided on my anti-Tromp/Veresov lines yet, but I'm interviewing some candidates.

As for g6, well I think for now, "You're fired!"   Smiley

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #11 - 12/10/15 at 12:57:17
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K cites this game:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1750698

K notes that white is a young FM. We have all had games where not understanding leads from bad to worse quickly, and here is to examine the ideas, not to be critical of an individual. White's moves appear of little use. The knight does not want to be on d2. c5 is horrid. Qc2 is pointless.

This is more sensible: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1775306
White plays Qd3, with the idea c4, and the knight coming to c3.
Black tries to clamp with Nb6, hmmm.
Wonder if there white can play b3, Nd2, eyeing up one or both of c4/e4.
Bad square for the knight on b6, black is catching no buses.

Dunno.
Better players that me can comment here, maybe....
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #10 - 12/10/15 at 10:22:03
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Thanks Bibs for the lecture!

A couple of months ago I was in JEH's position and had a serious look at (the lazy indeed) 2...g6. Played it also in a few blitz games with great results and was ready to do some research (starting from ChessPub). Nevertheless, was dissapointed when started to seriously analyse this. Black is paasive and this does not turn out as a good, Stonewall-ish position. I think also Wells in his book on the Tromp gives analysis vs. this line.

Anyway, checked out 2...d5, 2...c5 and 2...Ne4 and finally decided on 2...e6 (the NID line) which is especially good if you also happen to play the NID (if not then you may need to check a few additional lines, e.g. some transpositions that lead to a Torre with an e6-setup).

Caveat: Have not decided yet vs. the Veresov - will tell you when I do!
  

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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #9 - 12/10/15 at 00:17:31
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Re Black's kingside chances in the 2...d5 version, I was reminded of Mackenzie Molner's rather straightforward-looking play last year against a young FM (Mate Bagi).

2...g6 seems to me to be one of those perennial += lines.  Of course it has been played by some very strong players.  Perhaps indeed also by a lot of players who didn't know what they were doing.
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #8 - 12/09/15 at 23:30:58
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To explain briefly 2...g6 v Tromp.

The black bishops want to be on e6 and d6, generally.
So 2...d5, if black wishes to play 3...ef6.

The bishop on g7 is entombed by e3 and d4 pawns. The pawn does not want, or need, to be on g6, IMHO.

White plays 3 Bf6, e3, g3, Ne2, Bg2, Qd3, c4, Nc3, b4, a4, 00, b5 in something like that order.
Black has one main plan in this system - playing on k-side with h5, Ng4 etc. This is weaker with the B on g7. As less threats on dark squares - no sacs on e3, g3 and the attack is not supported.
(Note the slightly delayed white castling - white can castle any time, but it can helpful to wait - if black piles on the file, slip to one side then - and Re8, Qe7 is wasted).

It always struck me that 2...g6 is the hoper's move- "Please don't take it. And its the KID, phew. Please don't." It signifies that black is clueless and will just play moves with no plan, and hope to be able to play from that point. Black cannot - he needs a plan early to counteract white's queenside steamroller, weak d-pawn, underpinned by the utmost white solidity.

*Class dismissed*
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #7 - 12/09/15 at 16:21:18
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It may be unsurprising (in view of the queenside expansion bit) that ECO and NCO gave the Veresov version as leading to equality, and the Tromp version as leading to a slight advantage for White.
  
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Re: Veresov with 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 g6
Reply #6 - 12/09/15 at 13:39:46
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MartinC wrote on 12/09/15 at 13:35:27:
Are you sure it follows over? That knight on c3 isn't precisely a harmonious fit with the idea of queen side expansion!


The only thing I'm sure of is that I'm not sure  Embarrassed
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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