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Normal Topic Grunfeld via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 d5. (Read 4618 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Grunfeld via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 d5.
Reply #6 - 12/13/15 at 17:23:26
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Yes, I was surprised to see ECO giving 4...Bg7 as though it is okay for Black, with no mention of 5. Qa4+, which offhand seems that it must be much better for White.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Grunfeld via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 d5.
Reply #5 - 12/13/15 at 17:07:06
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TD wrote on 12/13/15 at 08:01:34:
I told my opponent that most Grunfeld-players play 3...Bg7 first in order to let white commit to 4.Nc3 or 4.g3, but he didn't really believe me...

This is indeed the accepted wisdom: If black wants a Grünfeld, he should only play ...d5 after either Nc3 or g3 have been played.

Though even with this inferior move order, Black can be a bit tricky and delay the recapture on d5:  1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 d5 4.cxd5 Bg7!?, with 0-0 also available as a waiting move and planning to get back to some normal Grünfeld once White goes Nc3 or g3.

Possibly 5.Qa4+ is the move that punishes this move order, but White has to either know that or find it at the board.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Grunfeld via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 d5.
Reply #4 - 12/13/15 at 16:27:33
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One book I recall having harsh words for it is Dynamics of Chess Strategy, by the Czech GM Vlastimil Jansa.  He even gave it as ±, as opposed to the += in Nunn's Chess Openings.

In my early chess years, I was told by a clubmate that it is called the "Bastard Gruenfeld."
  
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Marek Soszynski
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Re: Grunfeld via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 d5.
Reply #3 - 12/13/15 at 15:37:15
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The point is not to play ...d7-d5 until there is a white knight on c3 to exchange.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 d5?! 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 and the black knight must retreat so that, now or soon, White can play Nb1-c3 unmolested.
  
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TD
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Re: Grunfeld via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 d5.
Reply #2 - 12/13/15 at 12:44:06
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RdC wrote on 12/13/15 at 10:51:05:
TD wrote on 12/13/15 at 08:01:34:
I tried to look it up in the books but I couldn't find any theory on the Grunfeld via Nf3 first. Any comments?


Received wisdom is that "it's known to be bad", but it might be a challenge to actually find a book that says so. Perhaps a book for beginners which might also discourage the similar "Marshall Defence" 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d5 ( or the other way round).

A score of 75% in White's favour indicates that it's bad in practice, even if your opponent is content to struggle against the White centre with the Knight on b6.


Just this morning I looked it up in the Dutch book "De Wereld van de Schaakopening, Deel 1, 1. d2-d4" ("FCO: Fundamental Chess Openings" in English) from GM Paul van der Sterren. He exactly stated what you and I said about this variation!
  
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RdC
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Re: Grunfeld via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 d5.
Reply #1 - 12/13/15 at 10:51:05
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TD wrote on 12/13/15 at 08:01:34:
I tried to look it up in the books but I couldn't find any theory on the Grunfeld via Nf3 first. Any comments?
                   



Received wisdom is that "it's known to be bad", but it might be a challenge to actually find a book that says so. Perhaps a book for beginners which might also discourage the similar "Marshall Defence" 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d5 ( or the other way round).

A score of 75% in White's favour indicates that it's bad in practice, even if your opponent is content to struggle against the White centre with the Knight on b6.
  
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TD
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Grunfeld via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 d5.
12/13/15 at 08:01:34
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Last week in a clubgame I played (with White) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nb6 6.h3 Bg7 7.Nc3, which scores about 76% in the databases. I told my opponent that most Grunfeld-players play 3...Bg7 first in order to let white commit to 4.Nc3 or 4.g3, but he didn't really believe me...

I tried to look it up in the books but I couldn't find any theory on the Grunfeld via Nf3 first. Any comments?
  
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