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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C18: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play? (Read 19440 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #25 - 01/15/17 at 21:15:58
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Hello.

I checked this line a bit and found these two recent games trying out:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Qa5 7.Bd2 Qa4 8.Qg4 Kf8 9.Qd1 b6 10.dxc5 bxc5 11.c4
This 11...Ne7 (not mentioned previously in the thread) does look solid for black, even if white gets to open up the position a bit.

Negi's line with 11.Nf3 does not look to give great chances for advantage either so I'm at the moment quite pessimistic of white's chances for advantage after 10.dxc5 Sad.



Have a nice day.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #24 - 02/02/16 at 20:50:37
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Hi.

Quote:
I found an interesting new line against 6... Qa5, what does everyone think about this:

(1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Qa5 7.Bd2 Qa4 8.Qb1 c4 9.Ne2 Nc6 10.h4!? etc... see post #21)


Well. The kingside space brought by h4-h5 and g4 may certainly be nice. The lines given look reasonably nice for white.

Hard to say how black should play. Maybe 10...f6 is not so bad; with the reasoning being that if play is directed towards a structural struggle maybe h4 (and possibly Qb1) can look a bit out of place.

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Bibs
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #23 - 02/01/16 at 12:25:45
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It's helpful to situate the giving of ideas in reference to existing analysis from major texts.
What is theory 'saying' currently?
  
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MartinC
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #22 - 02/01/16 at 09:45:52
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Not the castling queenside bit - that's asking for very serious long term trouble on the a3/c3 squares.

Think you need to look at your black play in those lines too - I thought black normally kept b6 clear as a spot for the e7 knight to settle?
(Hence the trouble with c3!).

Otherwise it looks like what white mostly tries to play at some stage, maybe quite early/committal but then maybe black can't do anything much with that.
  
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NegiRefutes
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #21 - 01/31/16 at 20:56:37
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I found an interesting new line against 6... Qa5, what does everyone think about this:



White gets king side space and can sometimes castle queen side.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #20 - 01/04/16 at 18:18:08
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kylemeister wrote on 01/04/16 at 17:55:31:
Regarding Main Duck, I would have thought that such a quick fe and Rf7 may well not be the way to handle White's kingside advantage ...

After 18...Rde8, Black might play 19...Nd8 next, avoiding even Rf1-f7. Why would things get better for White, if he waits, how CAN he improve the position, increase his so-called "advantage" on the kingside? I've tried to find something stronger, in vain.

And White shouldn't take it as granted that he can totally ignore the queenside. After careful preparation, Black might break through...
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #19 - 01/04/16 at 17:55:31
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Regarding Main Duck, I would have thought that such a quick fe and Rf7 may well not be the way to handle White's kingside advantage ...
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #18 - 01/04/16 at 11:43:10
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brabo wrote on 01/03/16 at 07:01:43:
My Bg2 was prepared at home. It is very likely not the most dangerous setup as some grandmasters indeed play immediately the bishop to h3 (of course after inserting h4). However the big benefit of my choice is that Bg2 eliminates the dangerous counterplay with f6. Black anyway played it in the game (well he played f5 but we transposed). He got an acceptable position but there were 2 defects.
1. It is very difficult to outplay a weaker opponent with black from that position (I am weaker, no doubt).
2. Whites play is much simpler. A computer doesn't show how difficult correct moves are.

Despite my preparation didn't achieve a plus for white (there are more interesting lines for that as written in my comments), the result of the opening can be called a big success in my example.

I fully agree with your last sentence. On the other side, I don't think that in Qa5 it's harder to win for Black than elsewhere. My short analysis gives a more active treatment as the mainline. The duck approach is still worth a look. That "sitting like a duck" will cost the full point is often easier said than done. The most principled execution of it would be 11...Nge7 12.0-0 Nc8 !N (not in database): "Main Duck".


  
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #17 - 01/03/16 at 07:01:43
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/02/16 at 20:31:33:
tony37 wrote on 01/01/16 at 12:45:08:
but if black doesn't wait like a duck, he's perfectly fine
obviously he doesn't need to play the way Stefan suggests, b6 (iso Ka8 + Rb8) totally stops any queenside attack, g6 prevents Nh5 ...

I thought it was appropriate to be just as generous as White, who had played Bg2 in his game, intending a later Bg2-h3.  Wink

I still fail to see what White should achieve with f4-f5. Also, Kb8-a8 was a subtle hint that White is going to attack on the "wrong" side, opening things where his own king stands.  Smiley

True, Black has other options to defend, which are hardly worse.

My Bg2 was prepared at home. It is very likely not the most dangerous setup as some grandmasters indeed play immediately the bishop to h3 (of course after inserting h4). However the big benefit of my choice is that Bg2 eliminates the dangerous counterplay with f6. Black anyway played it in the game (well he played f5 but we transposed). He got an acceptable position but there were 2 defects.
1. It is very difficult to outplay a weaker opponent with black from that position (I am weaker, no doubt).
2. Whites play is much simpler. A computer doesn't show how difficult correct moves are.

Despite my preparation didn't achieve a plus for white (there are more interesting lines for that as written in my comments), the result of the opening can be called a big success in my example.
  
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #16 - 01/03/16 at 06:53:23
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Stigma wrote on 01/01/16 at 21:20:43:
Seriously though, I have a soft spot for 6...Qa5 and wouldn't mind at all if it turns out to be playable. Though there always seems to be a risk of passivity with little to do but wait in some lines.

Grandmasters are playing this against 200 points lower rated players on a regular base. Some posters here believe that waiting is the best but that sounds to me a contradiction. If you have 200 or more points more than the opponent then you will lose a lot of rating points.

No those grandmasters don't play the opening only as a surprise as in my example I was prepared for it.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #15 - 01/02/16 at 20:31:33
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tony37 wrote on 01/01/16 at 12:45:08:
but if black doesn't wait like a duck, he's perfectly fine
obviously he doesn't need to play the way Stefan suggests, b6 (iso Ka8 + Rb8) totally stops any queenside attack, g6 prevents Nh5 ...

I thought it was appropriate to be just as generous as White, who had played Bg2 in his game, intending a later Bg2-h3.  Wink

I still fail to see what White should achieve with f4-f5. Also, Kb8-a8 was a subtle hint that White is going to attack on the "wrong" side, opening things where his own king stands.  Smiley

True, Black has other options to defend, which are hardly worse.
  
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #14 - 01/01/16 at 21:20:43
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tony37 wrote on 01/01/16 at 12:45:08:
but if black doesn't wait like a duck, he's perfectly fine
obviously he doesn't need to play the way Stefan suggests, b6 (iso Ka8 + Rb8) totally stops any queenside attack, g6 prevents Nh5 ...

Those poor ducks could use some good publicity for a change! At least they taste great with teriyaki sauce...

Seriously though, I have a soft spot for 6...Qa5 and wouldn't mind at all if it turns out to be playable. Though there always seems to be a risk of passivity with little to do but wait in some lines.

  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #13 - 01/01/16 at 19:05:00
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Well, suppose how fine could be debated Smiley

Looks to me like the original question was looking for something that just isn't there vs this line - it's even more slow/flexible than many French lines, so hugely hard to pin down concretely.
  
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #12 - 01/01/16 at 12:45:08
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brabo wrote on 01/01/16 at 04:39:32:
JEH wrote on 12/31/15 at 19:36:42:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/31/15 at 17:31:39:
how is White going to crush him? 


Little by little

Indeed and white has plenty of time especially if black is waiting like a duck. As I mentioned earlier white most likely will prepare the breakthrough f4-f5.

but if black doesn't wait like a duck, he's perfectly fine
obviously he doesn't need to play the way Stefan suggests, b6 (iso Ka8 + Rb8) totally stops any queenside attack, g6 prevents Nh5 ...
« Last Edit: 01/01/16 at 15:20:11 by tony37 »  
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Pl
Reply #11 - 01/01/16 at 04:39:32
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JEH wrote on 12/31/15 at 19:36:42:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/31/15 at 17:31:39:
how is White going to crush him? 


Little by little

Indeed and white has plenty of time especially if black is waiting like a duck. As I mentioned earlier white most likely will prepare the breakthrough f4-f5.
« Last Edit: 03/13/17 at 18:29:15 by dom »  
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #10 - 12/31/15 at 19:36:42
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/31/15 at 17:31:39:
how is White going to crush him? 


Little by little
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #9 - 12/31/15 at 17:31:39
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brabo wrote on 12/28/15 at 04:43:24:
I published on my blog some notes of my win against the grandmaster Feygin playing this system : http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2013/12/how-to-win-from-stronger-player.html

brabo wrote on 12/28/15 at 08:30:48:
White can easily improve his position. Nh5, Bh3, f4, g4, Rg2, Rf1, Qb2(c1) and everything is ready to crush black with f5. Black can't just wait and sit like a duck.

Excellent win, but if Black plays a duck-ish 12...Kb8 13.Qb2 Ka8 14.Rab1 Rb8 15.Nf4 Nge7 16.Nh5 Rhg8, how is White going to crush him?
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #8 - 12/29/15 at 10:53:59
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Hi.

Quote:
What is White's best way to play in this line?

It remains to be seen.

JEH wrote on 12/27/15 at 19:57:46:
It seems to me that part of Negi's strategy is to provoke c4. See the note at the bottom of p243 where he gives 10. ...c4?!

It seems with the d and b pawns exhchanged White might have a superior version of the Karjarkin-Nikolic game noted in line A21, and so should get on with a route 1 plan of h4/h5/g4! pawn avalanche!

In a related line Negi provokes c4 at one point by going.
(1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Qa5 7.Bd2 Qa4 8.Qg4 Kf8 9.Qd1 Nc6 10.Qb1) With 10.Qb1 being the provocation.

In the line in question
(1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Qa5 7.Bd2 Qa4 8.Qg4 Kf8 9.Qd1 b6 10.dxc5 bxc5 11.Nf3)
One can argue that 11.Nf3 likely enhances the effect of a coming c3-c4 giving black more incentive to consider preventing this possibility with c5-c4.

I think generally black does not mind the dxc5, bxc5 exchange that much. White's position is slightly less stable afterwards and in the long the term the open b-line might yield black chances for counterplay. The drawback is that the exchange further weakens black's already weak dark squares and somewhat opens up the game for white's uncontested dark squared bishop.

JEH wrote on 12/27/15 at 19:57:46:
And what plan does Black have?  Huh

Head for the hills on the Queenside where the b-file and the a7-g1 diaganol has been opened up?

The plan is nothing fancy. Just to develop and stay solid.

Quote:
Yes, I guess. Also maybe because ...c4 looks anti-positional many players won't play it against me. I just thought it was good because the engine recommended it and I wasn't able to find a way to progress against its suggestions.


I think you're right that you won't face it that often. It's an ugly move. Still it is not at all easy to find any good plan against it.
Some analysis, where I've tried to find some kind of edge:



Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #7 - 12/28/15 at 08:30:48
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Quote:
Yes, after ...f5 White gets the upper hand. However, what if Black just does nothing on the kingside like ...b6 and ...Nge7, what is White's plan to improve his position?

Nice games btw.


White can easily improve his position. Nh5, Bh3, f4, g4, Rg2, Rf1, Qb2(c1) and everything is ready to crush black with f5. Black can't just wait and sit like a duck.
  
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NegiRefutes
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #6 - 12/28/15 at 06:07:45
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Yes, after ...f5 White gets the upper hand. However, what if Black just does nothing on the kingside like ...b6 and ...Nge7, what is White's plan to improve his position?

Nice games btw.
  
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #5 - 12/28/15 at 04:43:24
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I published on my blog some notes of my win against the grandmaster Feygin playing this system : http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2013/12/how-to-win-from-stronger-player.html

"I just thought it was good because the engine recommended it and I wasn't able to find a way to progress against its suggestions."
In the analysis of my first 2 official games against this system I didn't get anywhere by relying purely on the evaluation of the engines. Only after replaying and memorizing the schemes used in grandmaster and correspondence games by white, I got much better positions out of the opening which resulted in a solid win over a 200 points higher rated opponent.
  
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NegiRefutes
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #4 - 12/27/15 at 23:01:22
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Yes, I guess. Also maybe because ...c4 looks anti-positional many players won't play it against me. I just thought it was good because the engine recommended it and I wasn't able to find a way to progress against its suggestions.
  
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #3 - 12/27/15 at 19:57:46
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It seems to me that part of Negi's strategy is to provoke c4. See the note at the bottom of p243 where he gives 10. ...c4?!

It seems with the d and b pawns exhchanged White might have a superior version of the Karjarkin-Nikolic game noted in line A21, and so should get on with a route 1 plan of h4/h5/g4! pawn avalanche!

And what plan does Black have?  Huh

Head for the hills on the Queenside where the b-file and the a7-g1 diaganol has been opened up?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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NegiRefutes
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #2 - 12/27/15 at 18:25:26
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Here is some brief analysis:

  
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JEH
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Re: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
Reply #1 - 12/27/15 at 06:29:40
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Quote:
I found that Black can equalize or at least stop White from making much progress with ...c4 on move 11 or 12.


Could you post your lines where you think Black is equalising?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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NegiRefutes
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C18: 6... Qa5 French -- White's Best Way to Play?
12/27/15 at 01:48:19
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Hi,

What is White's best way to play in this line? After examining Negi's recommendation, I found that Black can equalize or at least stop White from making much progress with ...c4 on move 11 or 12. What is White's best way to play for an edge?

Thanks
« Last Edit: 03/13/17 at 18:29:58 by dom »  
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