Quote:


I guess the main idea of Kg2 is prophylaxis against ...Bh3, a manoeuvre that's occurred in one or two Jones games ...

Does Jones give any suggestion (either concretely or in terms of general plan) for how Black should handle the position after 13.Qd2 h5 14.Nh4 Ndf6? One thing I find interesting, and actually a bit bemusing, is that I have Jones down as being in general a pretty attacking sort of player, and well, of course, Black will attack in these positions if he can -- but 14.Nh4 is aimed against that, and it seems Black must now just patiently manoeuvre. There are lots of ways he can dispose his pieces (for instance he can even play ...Ne8/...Nc7/...a6/..b5 in some instances, or even block White with ...b6 and ...a5 despite weakening b5!), but it's really hard, at least for me, to gauge which is best!

'Update'. Footling around with the position after 14 Kg2 I'm thinking Black could maybe start with ...Ndf6 and ...Bd7, then play ...b6 and ...a6, and put his rooks on a8 and b8, his Queen on d8 and his QB on e8 (eying b5) -- then assuming White has been advancing his queenside pawns he can defend with ...Nfd7 and even ...cxb4. But I also wonder if White could instead go for a very slow and carefully prepared kingside advance -- something like Rooks on h1 and g1, King on f1, pawns initially on h3, g3 and f3, then gradually move forward. I'm sure Capablanca would have known what the right plan for each side is!

Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 04/24/22 at 21:27:53:


We can do something there . But I personally don't know where to find more good (corr) games when it comes to 6...Nbd7 KID. It seems not very hot at the moment. We are talking +21 =13 -4 after 8.Be3 for corr games played in 2021 and 2022. Looking at black's attempts you get an impression of the relatively small numbers of players still playing the line oftentimes just going in without much in terms of game plan as well. From having some of the wrong kind of experience here (to much )... In correspondence the more strategically challenging the line appears to be, the clearer the plan going in to the game should be.

Michael Ayton wrote on 04/24/22 at 21:27:53:

12.a3!? and 12.Qc1 Kh7 13.a3!? were just some unplayed suggestions from me but I think they could work.

If:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 Nbd7 7.O-O e5 8.Be3 Qe7 9.Qc2 c6 10.Rad1 h6 11.d5 c5 12.Qc1 h5!?
I guess you can argue the pawn somewhat mildly restrains white, who cannot use the g4 square and also constantly needs to consider the implications of Bh6 by black. In terms of downside, if black goes f5 at some point taking back with gxf5 becomes a lot harder though. Having a bishop on e2 lined up against the h5 pawn can be pretty restraining for black as well. In some sort dream future for white h5 would also be used as a hook when white finally manages to play g4.

The main problem I think is more direct however and that is the g5 square becomes more or less lost for the black cause. If there was still a pawn on h6 one could maybe dream about getting a piece there sometime as black. Now I think white can even immediately jump in and then work towards bringing pieces to the kingside for potential pushes e.g. 

13.Ng5
13.Bg5!? Re8 14.Kh1 Nf8 15.h3 N8h7 16.Be3 Bd7 17.Qd2 Kh8!? 18.Nh2
13...Bh6 14.h4 Nh7 15.f3 Bxg5!? 16.hxg5 f6 17.gxf6 Ndxf6 18.Rf2!
In both cases I think white has good chances due to black's lack of counterplay. Both in practice and correspondence. There should also be big allowance for playing with moves thrown in here and there or doing slightly different plans as white. Black has very little counterplay or obvious own plans (but is solid to some extent).

From these above lines it's almost possible to see how not spending time on a3+b4 for white can give some more time for other stuff. It does not automatically improve white's position. We can definitely agree here. Just if part of a broader successful strategy of pressure though. Then it can be really annoying for black to meet.

FreeRepublic wrote on 04/23/22 at 18:41:23:

Yea the positions become so different with g3+Bg2 that it's not really the same as classical with Be2; even if most of the pieces are similarly placed.

Have a nice day.

Hi.

So if there are no substantial corr games of late we may have to speculate a bit about critical continuations and stuff. When it comes to white lines after:
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. Be3 Qe7 9. Qc2 c6 10. Rad1 h6 11. d5 c5

I'm actually a bit concerned both with 12.a3!? and 12.Qc1 Kh7 13.a3!?. Not sure if they have been played otb or not. Seems to me very principled ways of playing in general - just prepare playing on the queenside. Also in a sense you are saying to black that he is free to have some extra time to reshuffle stuff, but that it is of no great concern. There may even be some hope of getting extra information from black in the process of his shuffling. Such that could potentially help decide own piece and pawn placements.

Maybe there is some way to get everything working somewhat in the black position but I don't see it.

Have a nice day.

Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 04/22/22 at 21:42:09:

There is literally only one game. 13.Kg2 Only continuation played in corr. Jones gives 13.Nh4 and 13.Qd2

[Event "VWC13 /pr 33"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2021.09.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Tauscher, Karl"]
[Black "Knöppel, Björn"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2306"]
[BlackElo "1932"]
[PlyCount "113"]
[EventDate "2021.??.??"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. Be3
Qe7 9. Qc2 c6 10. Rad1 h6 11. d5 c5 12. g3 Nh7 13. Kg2 Ndf6 14. Qc1 h5 15. h3
Bd7 16. Qc2 b6 17. a4 Kh8 18. Bd3 Ng8 19. Qd2 a6 20. Rb1 a5 21. Rbe1 Rae8 22.
Bc2 Qd8 23. Nb5 Bc8 24. b3 Ne7 25. Nh4 Qd7 26. Rh1 Bf6 27. Nf3 Bg7 28. Rh2 f5
29. Kh1 Qd8 30. Rg1 Bf6 31. Qd1 h4 32. Bd2 Rg8 33. Nxh4 Bxh4 34. gxh4 f4 35.
Bxf4 exf4 36. Qa1+ Rg7 37. h5 Kg8 38. h6 Rf7 39. h4 Nf6 40. Nxd6 Qxd6 41. e5
Qc7 42. exf6 Bf5 43. Bxf5 Nxf5 44. h5 Qd8 45. Qc3 Rxf6 46. hxg6 Qe7 47. Qf3 Nd4
48. Qd3 Nf5 49. Rh5 f3 50. Qd2 Rd8 51. Qc3 Nd4 52. g7 Qe4 53. Qe3 Qh7 54. Qg5
Rfd6 55. Rg4 Nf5 56. Rf4 Nxg7 57. Rg4 1-0

Comparing lines:

A) Classical:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. Re1 c6 9. Bf1



to

B)Fianchetto:
1. d4 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3 O-O 5. Bg2 d6 6. O-O Nbd7 7. Nc3 e5 8. e4 c6 9. h3



I once thought that A should favor White moreso than B. A looked faster than B. The White fianchetto plus h3 had spent somewhat too many tempos on pawn moves. The implication was that Black should welcome seeing a fianchetto by white and that ...Nbd7 should be a good system vs. White's fianchetto.

As noted by others, White has significant 8th move alternatives under A: 8Be3 and 8Qc2. This increases the appeal of the classical (A) for White and the appeal of the ...Nbd7 vs. the fianchetto (B) for Black.

I now think my reasoning was overly simple. The position reached after A does indeed resemble the position reached after B. However there are so many nuances in the position, and prior and subsequent play, that there is nothing to be gained from comparing A to B. It's tempting to compare lines. However now I recommend considering each line in isolation from the other.

Quote:

Yes please! I'd love this for any of the 'closed' lines Jones gives, but especially for 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 Nbd7 7.O-O e5 8.Be3 Qe7 9.Qc2 c6 10.Rad1 h6 11.d5 c5 12.g3 Nh7 13.Qd2 (or 13.Nh4) h5 14.Nh4 (or 14.Kg2!?). 

Or, of course, any interesting deviations, especially Black ones!

JEH wrote on 02/18/16 at 18:37:34:


There was a time, it seems like it was not so long ago, when I thought black had several viable systems with ...Nbd7 against the white fianchetto. Now I find it hard to find one! Perhaps it's the pernicious impact of computer engines,  .