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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3 (Read 9488 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #29 - 04/27/22 at 04:50:47
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Hi.

FreeRepublic wrote on 04/25/22 at 11:50:08:
So-Tabatabaei continued:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. Be3 c6 9. d5 ("The best reply in this variation," GM Petrov.) c5.

I mean he could definitely be right. Jones avoids it by going 8...Qe7. Don't wanna overemphasize recent results or anything but they are not exactly good in the above line (looking at last few years correspondence as usual when it's me). We could focus on the fact that black did win one game though Smiley.
Edit/breaking news: That win was from abandonment. Rookie mistake not to check for that. Ignore previously alluded to huge statistic significance of game Cheesy

Michael Ayton wrote on 04/25/22 at 21:56:46:
Does Jones give any suggestion (either concretely or in terms of general plan) for how Black should handle the position after 13.Qd2 h5 14.Nh4 Ndf6? One thing I find interesting, and actually a bit bemusing, is that I have Jones down as being in general a pretty attacking sort of player, and well, of course, Black will attack in these positions if he can -- but 14.Nh4 is aimed against that, and it seems Black must now just patiently manoeuvre. There are lots of ways he can dispose his pieces (for instance he can even play ...Ne8/...Nc7/...a6/..b5 in some instances, or even block White with ...b6 and ...a5 despite weakening b5!), but it's really hard, at least for me, to gauge which is best!

Well. He doesn't really go much further. "Only" to move 17 for black and there he does appear to get some position where white should indeed have some problems making pawn breaks. Seemed like a decent place to stop. He's sort of honest it should probably be a little bit better for white if he's Stockfish NNUE though.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #28 - 04/25/22 at 21:56:46
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There is literally only one game. 13.Kg2 Only continuation played in corr. Jones gives 13.Nh4 and 13.Qd2


I guess the main idea of Kg2 is prophylaxis against ...Bh3, a manoeuvre that's occurred in one or two Jones games ...

Does Jones give any suggestion (either concretely or in terms of general plan) for how Black should handle the position after 13.Qd2 h5 14.Nh4 Ndf6? One thing I find interesting, and actually a bit bemusing, is that I have Jones down as being in general a pretty attacking sort of player, and well, of course, Black will attack in these positions if he can -- but 14.Nh4 is aimed against that, and it seems Black must now just patiently manoeuvre. There are lots of ways he can dispose his pieces (for instance he can even play ...Ne8/...Nc7/...a6/..b5 in some instances, or even block White with ...b6 and ...a5 despite weakening b5!), but it's really hard, at least for me, to gauge which is best!

'Update'. Footling around with the position after 14 Kg2 I'm thinking Black could maybe start with ...Ndf6 and ...Bd7, then play ...b6 and ...a6, and put his rooks on a8 and b8, his Queen on d8 and his QB on e8 (eying b5) -- then assuming White has been advancing his queenside pawns he can defend with ...Nfd7 and even ...cxb4. But I also wonder if White could instead go for a very slow and carefully prepared kingside advance -- something like Rooks on h1 and g1, King on f1, pawns initially on h3, g3 and f3, then gradually move forward. I'm sure Capablanca would have known what the right plan for each side is!
« Last Edit: 04/26/22 at 21:20:36 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #27 - 04/25/22 at 11:50:08
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This month's ChessPublishing article on the KID  included 4 games with the Classical, two with ...Nbd7 and two with ...Na6. In the ...Na6 games, black put pressure on the e-file, one with ...Qe7, the other with ...Re8.

So-Tabatabaei continued:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. Be3 c6 9. d5 ("The best reply in this variation," GM Petrov.) c5.
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #26 - 04/25/22 at 01:50:33
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 04/24/22 at 21:27:53:
Thanks for these! I look forward to seeing more corr. games, but just when you've got time of course.


We can do something there Wink. But I personally don't know where to find more good (corr) games when it comes to 6...Nbd7 KID. It seems not very hot at the moment. We are talking +21 =13 -4 after 8.Be3 for corr games played in 2021 and 2022. Looking at black's attempts you get an impression of the relatively small numbers of players still playing the line oftentimes just going in without much in terms of game plan as well. From having some of the wrong kind of experience here (to much Cheesy)... In correspondence the more strategically challenging the line appears to be, the clearer the plan going in to the game should be.

Michael Ayton wrote on 04/24/22 at 21:27:53:
As I see it, after Qd2/Qc1, ...h5 is thematic and nearly always better than ...Kh7. (...h5-h4 might even follow in some cases if White allows it.) I guess the skill for Black often lies in 'shuffling' as you say in a way that keeps as flexible as possible, potentially teeing up for ...f5 (even after ...h5) but only ever actually playing it if it's strong, or at least offering dynamic possibilities without being self-destructively weakening. White's opening the b-file after a3/b4 etc. might not be a great gain on its own -- I've seen games where Black just meets Rb1 with ...Rb8, or even doesn't bother if White has no entry squares. All in all, I reckon these positions are strategically very hard to call, which is precisely why they fascinate me!

12.a3!? and 12.Qc1 Kh7 13.a3!? were just some unplayed suggestions from me but I think they could work.

If:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 Nbd7 7.O-O e5 8.Be3 Qe7 9.Qc2 c6 10.Rad1 h6 11.d5 c5 12.Qc1 h5!?
I guess you can argue the pawn somewhat mildly restrains white, who cannot use the g4 square and also constantly needs to consider the implications of Bh6 by black. In terms of downside, if black goes f5 at some point taking back with gxf5 becomes a lot harder though. Having a bishop on e2 lined up against the h5 pawn can be pretty restraining for black as well. In some sort dream future for white h5 would also be used as a hook when white finally manages to play g4.

The main problem I think is more direct however and that is the g5 square becomes more or less lost for the black cause. If there was still a pawn on h6 one could maybe dream about getting a piece there sometime as black. Now I think white can even immediately jump in and then work towards bringing pieces to the kingside for potential pushes e.g.

13.Ng5
13.Bg5!? Re8 14.Kh1 Nf8 15.h3 N8h7 16.Be3 Bd7 17.Qd2 Kh8!? 18.Nh2
13...Bh6 14.h4 Nh7 15.f3 Bxg5!? 16.hxg5 f6 17.gxf6 Ndxf6 18.Rf2!
In both cases I think white has good chances due to black's lack of counterplay. Both in practice and correspondence. There should also be big allowance for playing with moves thrown in here and there or doing slightly different plans as white. Black has very little counterplay or obvious own plans (but is solid to some extent).

From these above lines it's almost possible to see how not spending time on a3+b4 for white can give some more time for other stuff. It does not automatically improve white's position. We can definitely agree here. Just if part of a broader successful strategy of pressure though. Then it can be really annoying for black to meet.

FreeRepublic wrote on 04/23/22 at 18:41:23:
I once thought that A should favor White moreso than B. A looked faster than B. The White fianchetto plus h3 had spent somewhat too many tempos on pawn moves. The implication was that Black should welcome seeing a fianchetto by white and that ...Nbd7 should be a good system vs. White's fianchetto.

As noted by others, White has significant 8th move alternatives under A: 8Be3 and 8Qc2. This increases the appeal of the classical (A) for White and the appeal of the ...Nbd7 vs. the fianchetto (B) for Black.

I now think my reasoning was overly simple. The position reached after A does indeed resemble the position reached after B. However there are so many nuances in the position, and prior and subsequent play, that there is nothing to be gained from comparing A to B. It's tempting to compare lines. However now I recommend considering each line in isolation from the other.

Yea the positions become so different with g3+Bg2 that it's not really the same as classical with Be2; even if most of the pieces are similarly placed.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #25 - 04/24/22 at 21:27:53
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Thanks for these! I look forward to seeing more corr. games, but just when you've got time of course.

As I see it, after Qd2/Qc1, ...h5 is thematic and nearly always better than ...Kh7. (...h5-h4 might even follow in some cases if White allows it.) I guess the skill for Black often lies in 'shuffling' as you say in a way that keeps as flexible as possible, potentially teeing up for ...f5 (even after ...h5) but only ever actually playing it if it's strong, or at least offering dynamic possibilities without being self-destructively weakening. White's opening the b-file after a3/b4 etc. might not be a great gain on its own -- I've seen games where Black just meets Rb1 with ...Rb8, or even doesn't bother if White has no entry squares. All in all, I reckon these positions are strategically very hard to call, which is precisely why they fascinate me!
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #24 - 04/24/22 at 20:14:49
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Hi.

So if there are no substantial corr games of late we may have to speculate a bit about critical continuations and stuff. When it comes to white lines after:
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. Be3 Qe7 9. Qc2 c6 10. Rad1 h6 11. d5 c5

I'm actually a bit concerned both with 12.a3!? and 12.Qc1 Kh7 13.a3!?. Not sure if they have been played otb or not. Seems to me very principled ways of playing in general - just prepare playing on the queenside. Also in a sense you are saying to black that he is free to have some extra time to reshuffle stuff, but that it is of no great concern. There may even be some hope of getting extra information from black in the process of his shuffling. Such that could potentially help decide own piece and pawn placements.

Maybe there is some way to get everything working somewhat in the black position but I don't see it.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #23 - 04/24/22 at 19:40:07
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Hi.

Off the top of my head I think Jones' 13...Kh8 looks a lot more natural than 13...Nh7. The latter move just appears to put the knight on a square where it doesn't really help in unravelling the kingside. Also white should be able to go Qd2 at some moment and even force black to go h6-h5. That can be quite a big thing strategically. I think Kh8-Ng8-Ndf6-Nh7 looks more natural then.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #22 - 04/24/22 at 18:55:01
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 04/22/22 at 21:42:09:
Quote:
I could probably drop some pgn printout of recent corr games if there is any line/-s that are of interest to anyone following.

Yes please! I'd love this for any of the 'closed' lines Jones gives, but especially for 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 Nbd7 7.O-O e5 8.Be3 Qe7 9.Qc2 c6 10.Rad1 h6 11.d5 c5 12.g3 Nh7 13.Qd2 (or 13.Nh4) h5 14.Nh4 (or 14.Kg2!?).

Or, of course, any interesting deviations, especially Black ones! Smiley

There is literally only one game. 13.Kg2 Only continuation played in corr. Jones gives 13.Nh4 and 13.Qd2 Grin

[Event "VWC13 /pr 33"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2021.09.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Tauscher, Karl"]
[Black "Knöppel, Björn"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2306"]
[BlackElo "1932"]
[PlyCount "113"]
[EventDate "2021.??.??"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. Be3
Qe7 9. Qc2 c6 10. Rad1 h6 11. d5 c5 12. g3 Nh7 13. Kg2 Ndf6 14. Qc1 h5 15. h3
Bd7 16. Qc2 b6 17. a4 Kh8 18. Bd3 Ng8 19. Qd2 a6 20. Rb1 a5 21. Rbe1 Rae8 22.
Bc2 Qd8 23. Nb5 Bc8 24. b3 Ne7 25. Nh4 Qd7 26. Rh1 Bf6 27. Nf3 Bg7 28. Rh2 f5
29. Kh1 Qd8 30. Rg1 Bf6 31. Qd1 h4 32. Bd2 Rg8 33. Nxh4 Bxh4 34. gxh4 f4 35.
Bxf4 exf4 36. Qa1+ Rg7 37. h5 Kg8 38. h6 Rf7 39. h4 Nf6 40. Nxd6 Qxd6 41. e5
Qc7 42. exf6 Bf5 43. Bxf5 Nxf5 44. h5 Qd8 45. Qc3 Rxf6 46. hxg6 Qe7 47. Qf3 Nd4
48. Qd3 Nf5 49. Rh5 f3 50. Qd2 Rd8 51. Qc3 Nd4 52. g7 Qe4 53. Qe3 Qh7 54. Qg5
Rfd6 55. Rg4 Nf5 56. Rf4 Nxg7 57. Rg4 1-0
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #21 - 04/24/22 at 14:30:23
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Hi.

So apparently updating to windows 11 means notepad becomes slow as heck. Trying to find some kind of workaround because editing large PGNs is suddenly extremely hard or impossible even. Greatly annoying.

Regards.
/CbT

Edit: I will get back about KID when I fixed an updated corr database.
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #20 - 04/23/22 at 18:41:23
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Comparing lines:

A) Classical:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. Re1 c6 9. Bf1

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

to

B)Fianchetto:
1. d4 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3 O-O 5. Bg2 d6 6. O-O Nbd7 7. Nc3 e5 8. e4 c6 9. h3

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

I once thought that A should favor White moreso than B. A looked faster than B. The White fianchetto plus h3 had spent somewhat too many tempos on pawn moves. The implication was that Black should welcome seeing a fianchetto by white and that ...Nbd7 should be a good system vs. White's fianchetto.

As noted by others, White has significant 8th move alternatives under A: 8Be3 and 8Qc2. This increases the appeal of the classical (A) for White and the appeal of the ...Nbd7 vs. the fianchetto (B) for Black.

I now think my reasoning was overly simple. The position reached after A does indeed resemble the position reached after B. However there are so many nuances in the position, and prior and subsequent play, that there is nothing to be gained from comparing A to B. It's tempting to compare lines. However now I recommend considering each line in isolation from the other.
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #19 - 04/23/22 at 04:33:21
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Hi.

Alright. I'll get on it soon. The annoying thing is I also need to update my corrbase with a few more months of games. It is pretty easy though.

Just to avoid confusion as well. Jones doesn't go Nbd7 against the fianchetto, only against the classical (as a secondary option but still 100 pages).

Black has all of Nf6, g6, d6, Bg7 and 0-0 to do before he really needs to start thinking about developing the b8 knight; in this time white often feels compelled to play either e4 or g3. Any of these basically make one or the other system (classical or fianchetto) a lot more likely to happen and black can adjust placement of b8 stallion according to which system was chosen. A point made in this very thread was that 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 move order limits white's options. Here black does have a knight on d7 early though. Also white is somewhat limited in choice of systems by 1...d6 move orders actually. Especially in case white wants to avoid 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #18 - 04/22/22 at 21:42:09
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Quote:
I could probably drop some pgn printout of recent corr games if there is any line/-s that are of interest to anyone following.

Yes please! I'd love this for any of the 'closed' lines Jones gives, but especially for 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 Nbd7 7.O-O e5 8.Be3 Qe7 9.Qc2 c6 10.Rad1 h6 11.d5 c5 12.g3 Nh7 13.Qd2 (or 13.Nh4) h5 14.Nh4 (or 14.Kg2!?).

Or, of course, any interesting deviations, especially Black ones! Smiley

  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #17 - 04/22/22 at 17:35:09
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AFreeRepublic wrote on 04/21/22 at 15:06:14:
JEH wrote on 02/18/16 at 18:37:34:
I play the King's Indian old school style with Nbd7 too against the Classical and Fianchetto.

There was a time, it seems like it was not so long ago, when I thought black had several viable systems with ...Nbd7 against the white fianchetto. Now I find it hard to find one! Perhaps it's the pernicious impact of computer engines,  Wink.

Hello.

Checking a correspondence database you definitely get the impression that white's position is somewhat easier to play. The white players have some nice positional squeeze type wins; while black has what looks like some fairly ineffective performances in various lines. Obviously in corr one good game is enough to change the assessment of a line though, so there is always some sifting to be done even in lines that look like they are doing poorly.

I could probably drop some pgn printout of recent corr games if there is any line/-s that are of interest to anyone following.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #16 - 04/21/22 at 15:06:14
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JEH wrote on 02/18/16 at 18:37:34:
I play the King's Indian old school style with Nbd7 too against the Classical and Fianchetto.


There was a time, it seems like it was not so long ago, when I thought black had several viable systems with ...Nbd7 against the white fianchetto. Now I find it hard to find one! Perhaps it's the pernicious impact of computer engines,  Wink.
« Last Edit: 04/22/22 at 12:04:11 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #15 - 04/20/22 at 21:43:03
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Hi.

Gawain Jones has put out about 100 pages worth of 6...Nbd7 King's Indian in his King's Indian vol. 1 book. Highly worth a read. He also covers the Mar del Plata (6...e5 7.0-0 Nc6) as well and in even more pages.

Have a nice day.
  
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