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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov (Read 17599 times)
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #14 - 10/08/17 at 19:30:32
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Also I find this game of GM S. Kasparov (2016).At an older game 13.Be5 was played,at that game white won.

EDIT:the engine gives 16....g6 17.Be5 0-0-0 18.g4 +=
« Last Edit: 10/08/17 at 20:41:30 by Avatar »  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #13 - 09/29/17 at 15:11:56
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The game above is from chess stars website.
I did not put all the game at the previous post,I could not,I also thing it is ok to give it here.
So 8...Qe6 is the improvement of GM Kotronias at what GM Tiviakov and GM John Shaw say?
Is there something else?
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #12 - 09/29/17 at 15:01:53
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Kotronias has this analysis
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #11 - 09/11/16 at 17:07:42
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Indeed, even Tiviakov himself has used the 3...Qd6 line successfully in 2016. I have discovered after doing some research that Tiviakov tends to be rather hyperbolic in his views, nevertheless based on what I've seen and analysed the 3...Qd6 line while not refuted by any means, seems extremely difficult to handle OTB against a well prepared opponent. Regarding the Caruana vs Magnus game, it seems that the former was caught by surprise which eased Carlsen's defensive task somewhat. By contrast, I am surprised that 3...Qd8 is not more popular, as to my mind it appears more resilient than both the more popular 3...Qd6 and 3...Qa5.

Stay tuned for further developments.
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #10 - 09/11/16 at 15:48:59
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Well, Magnus Carlsen doesnt think anything is busted as he just used it to draw with Caruana in the Olympiad  Smiley
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #9 - 02/22/16 at 23:35:35
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fling wrote on 02/22/16 at 13:36:00:
Interesting. What did he give for White after 9...e6 instead of Bxc2? Kotronias also has another idea against this line btw.

I agree that it seems like White should have something against these lines because Black moves the queen a lot. On the other hand, thar has been said about the Scandinavian the whole time and still it doesn't seem totally refuted :-D


He doesn't comment on 9...e6, but Chessbase Live Book mentions: 9...e6 10.Bf4 Qd8 11.0-0-0 Nb6 12.g4 Bg6 13.h4 h5 14.g5 Nfd5 (14...Ng4 15.Nxb6 Qxb6 (15...axb6 16.d5+- exd5 17.Nxd5 cxd5 18.Bb5+ Ke7 19.Rhe1+ Ne5 20.Rxe5+ Kd6 21.Rexd5+ Ke6 22.Re5 Mate) 16.Bd3 Bxd3 17.Rxd3+-

No doubt Kotronias has improvements on all this, but I don't like the direction of the play for Black in any of these lines, nevertheless Black maybe holding in some of them with best play.
« Last Edit: 02/23/16 at 21:20:09 by TopNotch »  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #8 - 02/22/16 at 13:36:00
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Interesting. What did he give for White after 9...e6 instead of Bxc2? Kotronias also has another idea against this line btw.

I agree that it seems like White should have something against these lines because Black moves the queen a lot. On the other hand, thar has been said about the Scandinavian the whole time and still it doesn't seem totally refuted :-D
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #7 - 02/22/16 at 00:53:26
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fling wrote on 02/21/16 at 16:42:25:
But that is not really the main line, is it? I would say that Black playing ...g6 is an interesting option but the main line in this variation (which is a pretty rare line) is ...Bf5.

I couldn't find a recent Georgiev-Tiviakov-game either, btw.


In the main line you highlight Tiviakov proposes the following as very unpleasant for Black: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd6 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.h3 Bf5 7.Ne5 e6 (7...Nbd7 8.Nc4 Qc7 9.Qf3! Intending 9...Bxc2?? 10.Bf4 Qd8 11.Qe2 Winning) 8.g4 Bg6 9.h4 Nbd7 10.Nc4 Qc7 11.h5 Be4 12.Nxe4 Nxe4 13.Qf3 Nd6 14.Bf4± Clearly better for White.]

Tiviakov concluded the Video Clip by claiming he no longer has a defence to 1.e4 lol, but considering that CBM 167 came out sometime in 2015 I suppose he has rectified that problem by now, in fact he seems to have taken to the French Defence in a number of recent games.

Maybe Tiv will eventually take up the gauntlet again sometime in the future.  Although I have to say, these positions look quite passive and depressing for Black. By the way Tiv also states that the alternatives 3...Qa5 and 3...Qd8 are also in trouble, however he doesn't provide any details to support that assertion.
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #6 - 02/21/16 at 22:35:12
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Ok I have re-watched the Tiviakov Video Clip from Chessbase Magazine#167 and as suspected he does not consider the comical looking 11...Qd8, when one considers how we got here (Black's Queen takes on d5, backs up to d6, slides across to c7 then to d7, then d8, back up to d5, then e6 culminating with an assessment of equality for black by Kotronias - Whew!! that's modern chess for yuh).

I don't have the Kotronias book to check the analysis, but this is what I found on the Chessbase LIve Book with one or two comments by yours truly:

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd6 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Ne5 Nbd7 7.Nc4 Qc7 8.Qf3 Nb6 9.Bf4 Qd7 10.Nxb6 axb6 11.0-0-0 Qd8!? 12.Qe3 Nd5 13.Nxd5 Qxd5 14.c4 Qa5 [Best maybe 14...Qe6!? 15.a3 Qxe3+ 16.Bxe3 e6 17.d5 exd5 18.cxd5 b5 19.Be2 b4 20.dxc6 bxc6 21.Bf3 Ra6 22.Rhe1 Be6 23.Bg5 Be7 24.Bxe7 Kxe7 25.axb4 Rb8 26.Re4 f5 27.Rh4 c5 28.bxc5 Ra1+ 29.Kd2 Rxb2+ 30.Ke1 Raa2 31.Rxh7 Bc4 32.Rc1 Bd3 33.Rxg7+ Kf6 34.Rd7 Be4 35.Rcd1 Bxf3 36.R1d6+ Ke5 37.gxf3 Rxf2 38.Rd2 Rxh2 39.Rxh2 Rxh2= Draw] 15.a3 Bg4 16.f3 Bd7 17.d5 e6 18.d6 g6 19.Qd4 Rg8 20.Be5 Qc5 21.Qc3 Bh6+ 22.Kb1 Qa5 23.Qd4 Qc5 24.Qh4± Clearly better for White.

So based on this admittedly cursory and somewhat in exhaustive analysis, I would say 11...Qd8 just about holds up for now, but despite Kotronias being an excellent analyst my intuition screams that this line won't stand the test of time.

Maybe Tony or Pavlovic could find out where and when the Georgiev - Tiviakov, Scandi game was played  and feature it in a future update.
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #5 - 02/21/16 at 21:22:32
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fling wrote on 02/21/16 at 17:48:38:
S. Kasparov only gives 11...e6 from what I can tell. Interestingly, I can't find any game by Tiviakov after 11...e6 12. Bc4. Kotronias says that he first was convinced White was better after 11. 0-0-0 and his game against Tiviakov in 2011 only confirmed this after 11...e6. However, he says he has analysed the position extensively, and gives 11...Qd8 12. Qe3 Nd5 13. Nxd5 Qxd5 14. c4. Here Black has two alternatives. 14...Qa5, which has been played in a few games so far, with Goran Gudichsen as Black with 4 draws, in corr. chess.

Kotronias gives 14...Qe6, and offers an improvement on the game Zuev-Hughes, 2012 (the only one played that I can find in CB Online). It seems Black is fine in this line too. Has Tiviakov something new in this line?


Thanks for your post Fling, I will review the Video Clip again and see if he mentions anything about 11...Qd8, for sure he discusses the earlier 9...Qd8 though, with the usual verdict as being much better for White.

Will report back soon.
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #4 - 02/21/16 at 17:48:38
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S. Kasparov only gives 11...e6 from what I can tell. Interestingly, I can't find any game by Tiviakov after 11...e6 12. Bc4. Kotronias says that he first was convinced White was better after 11. 0-0-0 and his game against Tiviakov in 2011 only confirmed this after 11...e6. However, he says he has analysed the position extensively, and gives 11...Qd8 12. Qe3 Nd5 13. Nxd5 Qxd5 14. c4. Here Black has two alternatives. 14...Qa5, which has been played in a few games so far, with Goran Gudichsen as Black with 4 draws, in corr. chess.

Kotronias gives 14...Qe6, and offers an improvement on the game Zuev-Hughes, 2012 (the only one played that I can find in CB Online). It seems Black is fine in this line too. Has Tiviakov something new in this line?
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #3 - 02/21/16 at 16:59:16
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/21/16 at 15:44:43:
Considering Qd6 is becoming more fashionable lately, Tiviakov's claim seems like it must be an exaggeration.

I couldn't find a game a Georgiev-Tiviakov game, but I did find Guseinov-Tiviakov, Nakhchivan Op, 2015, which Guseinov won in 32 moves. That could be the game he means.



[Event "Nakhchivan Open"]
[Site "Nakhchivan AZE"]
[Date "2015.05.10"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "9"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Gadir Guseinov"]
[Black "Sergei Tiviakov"]
[ECO "B01"]
[WhiteElo "2612"]
[BlackElo "2642"]
[PlyCount "63"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd6 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6 6. h3 g6
7. Bd3 Bg7 8. O-O O-O 9. Re1 Re8 10. Bg5 Nbd7 11. Qd2 e6
12. Ne5 Qf8 13. a3 Nd5 14. Nxd5 exd5 15. Ng4 Nb6 16. Rxe8 Qxe8
17. Re1 Be6 18. Nf6+ Bxf6 19. Bxf6 Nd7 20. Bg5 Qf8 21. Qf4 Qb8
22. Qh4 Qf8 23. f4 Qg7 24. c3 Kh8 25. Kh1 Re8 26. f5 gxf5
27. Bxf5 Rg8 28. Bd3 f6 29. Rxe6 fxg5 30. Qe1 Rf8 31. Re7 Rf7
32. Rxd7 1-0


Thanks for responding to my query so quickly Smyslov_Fan, and indeed Tiviakov also cites the game that you gave as an alternative reason this line is unplayable for Black.

However his game with Kiril Georgiev according to him continued:  1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd6 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Ne5 Nbd7 7.Nc4 Qc7 8.Qf3 Nb6 9.Bf4 Qd7 10.Nxb6 axb6 11.0-0-0 e6 12.Bc4! and concludes that this line poses serious problems for Black.

Intriguing stuff indeed, especially as you say and I concur, the popularity of the Scandi with 3...Qd6 seems to be on the rise suddenly, with two recent Repertoire books having come out endorsing the Line:

  • Understanding the Scandinavian by Sergey Kasparov.


  • The Safest Scandinavian by Vassilios Kotronias.


So who is right, Tiviakov, Kotronias or Kasparov,S? and where is this mysterious Georgiev,K - Tiviakov, S game to be found?

Keeping my fingers crossed that someone solves this one.

Topster Smiley
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #2 - 02/21/16 at 16:42:25
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But that is not really the main line, is it? I would say that Black playing ...g6 is an interesting option but the main line in this variation (which is a pretty rare line) is ...Bf5.

I couldn't find a recent Georgiev-Tiviakov-game either, btw.
  
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Re: Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
Reply #1 - 02/21/16 at 15:44:43
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Considering Qd6 is becoming more fashionable lately, Tiviakov's claim seems like it must be an exaggeration.

I couldn't find a game a Georgiev-Tiviakov game, but I did find Guseinov-Tiviakov, Nakhchivan Op, 2015, which Guseinov won in 32 moves. That could be the game he means.



[Event "Nakhchivan Open"]
[Site "Nakhchivan AZE"]
[Date "2015.05.10"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "9"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Gadir Guseinov"]
[Black "Sergei Tiviakov"]
[ECO "B01"]
[WhiteElo "2612"]
[BlackElo "2642"]
[PlyCount "63"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd6 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6 6. h3 g6
7. Bd3 Bg7 8. O-O O-O 9. Re1 Re8 10. Bg5 Nbd7 11. Qd2 e6
12. Ne5 Qf8 13. a3 Nd5 14. Nxd5 exd5 15. Ng4 Nb6 16. Rxe8 Qxe8
17. Re1 Be6 18. Nf6+ Bxf6 19. Bxf6 Nd7 20. Bg5 Qf8 21. Qf4 Qb8
22. Qh4 Qf8 23. f4 Qg7 24. c3 Kh8 25. Kh1 Re8 26. f5 gxf5
27. Bxf5 Rg8 28. Bd3 f6 29. Rxe6 fxg5 30. Qe1 Rf8 31. Re7 Rf7
32. Rxd7 1-0
  
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Scandinavian 3...Qd6 Busted According to Tiviakov
02/20/16 at 21:12:32
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Hi Guys,

In ChessBase Magazine #167 Sergei Tiviakov did a Video Clip on the 3...Qd6 Scandi, concluding that it was no longer playable. During his presentation he cites one of his recent black games vs. Kiril Georgiev as a key reason for the demise of this line, and advises the viewer to look up the game in a database for further details.

Checking many Database sources I haven't been able to track down any Scandi games between Kiril Georgiev and Tiviakov.
I was hoping that someone on the forum might have better luck than I did, and if so, would be so kind as to post the pgn file.

Regards,

Toppy Smiley
  
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