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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!? (Read 6115 times)
TD
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #12 - 03/04/16 at 08:11:58
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Stigma wrote on 03/04/16 at 01:15:17:
@TD: You mentioned Khalifman's Kramnik repertoire; does he transpose with d4?


4.e4 and then 5/6.d4.
  
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #11 - 03/04/16 at 07:53:26
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Yeah, I was pretty happy to see a similar line against the English that can be reached a transposition:

1.c4 d5?! 2.cxd5 Nf6 3.Nf3

(I also have serious doubts about Black's compensation after 3.e4!? as well.)

Typical scenario is some Marshall Defense transposition, usually a favorable Neo-Grunfeld for White.

This is popular with the U1400 crowd. I think it usually shows a lack of opening understanding. If you really want an open game, why not make a better fight for the center and play a reversed Open Sicilian with 1.c4 e5 or a QGA-style approach against the Reti with 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 dxc4?
  
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Stigma
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #10 - 03/04/16 at 01:27:13
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kylemeister wrote on 03/03/16 at 16:39:00:
No, I certainly remember the same thing, though I notice ECO had both 4. Nf3 and 4. e4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Nf3 as leading to +=.

(By the way, I recalled a game Alekhine-Marshall which went 4. e4 Nf6 5. Bd3 e5.  A perhaps exemplary win by Alekhine, but he thought Black should have been equal out of the opening.)

Thanks; nice to know I'm not completely amnesic!

I have to wonder though what the Black players in the DB are thinking when they get the chance to get in that 4.e4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 after their dubious opening choice, yet play something slow instead... White is easily better when he gets the center for free.

That Alekhine-Marshall game is a classic; I first saw it in one of Silman's books and was impressed. It shows Alekhine was also a strong strategic/prophylactic player, not just an attacking/calculating monster.
  

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Stigma
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #9 - 03/04/16 at 01:15:17
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Bibs wrote on 03/03/16 at 22:15:58:
It's not the same!
Erm. The pawn is not on d4.
It may go there, it probably will, but it may not.

Yes, I should have been clearer. White can choose to transpose with d4 (and may then find Bronznik and other 1.d4 books useful), but of course he doesn't have to, certainly not right away. There may be other good options.

@TD: You mentioned Khalifman's Kramnik repertoire; does he transpose with d4?
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #8 - 03/03/16 at 23:16:23
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Bibs wrote on 03/03/16 at 22:15:58:
It's not the same!
Erm. The pawn is not on d4.
It may go there, it probably will, but it may not.

Thanks Bibs for pointing it out! I looked at what Stigma wrote in reply #2, not the op, and mistakenly put 4. d4 in there!

(After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5?! 3.cxd5 Nxd5 I believe I have seen 4.Nf3 recommended somewhere (and then 5.e4 if Black doesn't prevent it), and this is the same position as 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6 (your move order) 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.d4.)

Sorry for the confusion  Cheesy
  
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Bibs
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #7 - 03/03/16 at 22:15:58
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It's not the same!
Erm. The pawn is not on d4.
It may go there, it probably will, but it may not.
  
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fling
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #6 - 03/03/16 at 21:42:58
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I was talking about what Broznik mentioned in the book and the reason he recommends 4. Nf3. Not how old the idea is, at least that is not what I meant. It is good to know what ECO says, though, helps a lot!
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #5 - 03/03/16 at 18:50:05
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Well, the idea that 4. Nf3 is better than 4. e4 goes way back, e.g. Fine in the 1940s and Horowitz in the 1960s.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #4 - 03/03/16 at 18:28:09
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The recommendation is in Beat the Guerillas (if by transposition this is the Marshall defence, right?). This is AFAIK indeed to prevent what you mentioned, e.g  4. e4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5!. I am pretty sure this was mentioned by Bronznik and that he could not find anything substantial for White and therefore White should first play Nf3.

I am also pretty sure I have seen Nf3 recommended in at least another book for the same reason, but can't remember which book it was. It should be one of those mentioned above.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #3 - 03/03/16 at 16:39:00
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One book which directly mentioned 2...Nf6 is ECO, which gave 3. cd Nxd5 4. e4 (with a reference for the 4. d4 transposition) Nf6 5. Nc3 c5 6. d4 += Dake-Engelman, Folkestone (ol) 1933.

Stigma wrote on 03/03/16 at 16:08:40:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5?! 3.cxd5 Nxd5 I believe I have seen 4.Nf3 recommended somewhere (and then 5.e4 if Black doesn't prevent it), and this is the same position as 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6 (your move order) 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.d4.

[At first I wrote that 4.Nf3 was meant to avoid 4.e4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5!, but I checked a database and nobody plays ...e5 there anyway, so I must have misremembered.]


No, I certainly remember the same thing, though I notice ECO had both 4. Nf3 and 4. e4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Nf3 as leading to +=.

(By the way, I recalled a game Alekhine-Marshall which went 4. e4 Nf6 5. Bd3 e5.  A perhaps exemplary win by Alekhine, but he thought Black should have been equal out of the opening.)
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #2 - 03/03/16 at 16:08:40
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Some of the typical complete 1.d4/2.c4 repertoire books may have something as well (Avrukh, Schandorff, Watson, Grivas etc.).

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5?! 3.cxd5 Nxd5 I believe I have seen 4.Nf3 recommended somewhere (and then 5.e4 if Black doesn't prevent it), and this is the same position as 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6 (your move order) 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.d4.

[At first I wrote that 4.Nf3 was meant to avoid 4.e4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5!, but I checked a database and nobody plays ...e5 there anyway, so I must have misremembered.]

There are also transpositions to the lines discussed in this thread (also started by TD) if both players cooperate: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1449993694/6#6
  

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Bibs
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
Reply #1 - 03/03/16 at 14:02:04
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Grunfeld stuff works when black can play Nxc3.
Can't here, so cd5, and e4.
Don't know any 'theory' but that seems a common sense and obvious approach.
  
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TD
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1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6!?
03/03/16 at 13:47:44
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This week someone played 2...Nf6 against my Reti. I find it strange that this (for me) annoying move is not mentioned in the books. Only Khalifman does extensive coverage of it. It seems that 3.cxd5 is the best move, but I only played it once on 7 occasions. I have played 3.b3, 3.g3 and 3.d4. Does anybody know where I can find something in the books or DVD's? Or is it so minor that it doesn't have to be mentioned at all?
  
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