Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Return to the KID? (Read 21026 times)
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #14 - 04/08/16 at 19:12:49
Post Tools
13...Nd7 seems to be sound enough, at least in the two corr-games.

The engine prefers 10...d5 which feels unKIDish though...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WSS
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 273
Joined: 04/22/11
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #13 - 04/08/16 at 18:58:39
Post Tools
Fllg wrote on 04/08/16 at 16:18:23:
Regarding Bojkov´s coverage in "Modernized: The King´s Indian" I´m slightly worried about the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O exd4 8. Nxd4 Re8 9. f3 c6 10. Bf4 which isn´t covered in the book and has a big plus score, albeit from only 31 games in my database.

The thematic 10...Nh5 11. Be3 f5 12. Qd2 f4 13. Bf2 isn´t satisfying for Black in my opinion.



Indeed, this type of position is not what I'm looking for when I'm playing the King's Indian.  White has a nice Maroczy structure with lasting pressure on my vulnerable d6-pawn whose defense is weakened by Black's kingside fianchetto.  Moreover, Black lacks counterplay compared to normal KID lines (or even a hedgehog structure) and seems doomed to defend.

This approach in the Classical was the first thing I discarded when reviewing the book (I think some of the other lines are fine.)  I also tried out the 6...Na6 lines in the Classical but again felt that the positions that arose lacked dynamic counterplay.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4901
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #12 - 04/08/16 at 16:52:32
Post Tools
Fllg wrote on 04/08/16 at 16:18:23:
Regarding Bojkov´s coverage in "Modernized: The King´s Indian" I´m slightly worried about the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O exd4 8. Nxd4 Re8 9. f3 c6 10. Bf4 which isn´t covered in the book and has a big plus score, albeit from only 31 games in my database.

The thematic 10...Nh5 11. Be3 f5 12. Qd2 f4 13. Bf2 isn´t satisfying for Black in my opinion.



I wondered about that too.  I know of a number of books which have either ignored 10. Bf4 or given it a question mark.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 647
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #11 - 04/08/16 at 16:18:23
Post Tools
Regarding Bojkov´s coverage in "Modernized: The King´s Indian" I´m slightly worried about the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O exd4 8. Nxd4 Re8 9. f3 c6 10. Bf4 which isn´t covered in the book and has a big plus score, albeit from only 31 games in my database.

The thematic 10...Nh5 11. Be3 f5 12. Qd2 f4 13. Bf2 isn´t satisfying for Black in my opinion.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WSS
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 273
Joined: 04/22/11
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #10 - 04/08/16 at 12:31:40
Post Tools
urusov wrote on 04/08/16 at 03:53:30:
I have recently returned to the KID myself after many years, as I found that I also felt most comfortable in the typical KID positions.  When I last played the KID, I would try to avoid tough lines like the 4 Pawns Attack and the Saemisch by waiting until White committed to Nf3 to adopt the KID and playing various other lines if he did not (such as the Old Indian with d6 and Bf5, the Budapest Gambit, or the Tango with Nc6).  But coming back to the KID now I have decided to go all in and create a KID-only repertoire.

I have found Dejan Bojkov's "Modernized" approach to the KID most appealing, as it definitely cuts down on the theory to some extent:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/04/review-of-dejan-bojkovs-modernized.htm...
That repertoire focuses on the idea of an early ...c6 and eventual ...d5 in many lines, which I like a lot.  Bojkov also has an excellent ChessBase DVD that focuses more on the early Na6 lines, which are also interesting.

Besides Bojkov's work, I also like Eugene Perelshteyn's various videos (at Chess.com, ChessLecture.com, and on DVD) on his approach to the KID with Na6 and some interesting lines vs. common White systems, such as the Byrne Variation (with c6, a6 and b5 with delayed castling) vs the Saemisch and the Kavalek (with c6 and Qa5) vs the Fianchetto.  I have put together bibliographies on these systems if you are interested:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/02/classical-kings-indian-with-6na6.html
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-kavalek-system-vs-kings-indian.htm...
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/03/samisch-kings-indian-byrne-system-e80....

Ultimately, if you choose less mainstream systems in the KID then the emphasis will be less on theory and more on ideas, as most opponents will not know what they are doing.


Urusov, I am interested in your comments and experiences.  I've looked at the lines in Bojkov's book and Eugene Perelshteyn's various videos as well since the idea of slightly offbeat (but sound) lines is certainly appealing.  However, it always seem to me that Black's resulting positions had much more limited winning chances against strong opponents (against a weaker opponent either will work) and indeed when I experimented with it OTB I ended up drawing.  Ultimately I decided that if I was going to play the KID (with the risk it entails), I wanted to maximize my winning chances which lie primarily in the main lines.   Therefore I decided to put those lines on the shelf - but perhaps I'm being too harsh in my assessment.

I see that the OP has decided to stay with his Slav, but I'd be interested in your thoughts (or others) on this topic.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
God Member
*****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 625
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #9 - 04/08/16 at 06:49:04
Post Tools
TD wrote on 04/04/16 at 18:20:19:
How does an amateur of about 1900-2000 strength keep up with that and doesn't get overwhelmed? How to choose your "ideal" repertoire (and remember it...) out of all those Black choices and the many options that White has?

Thanks everybody for your input! But I still am feeling overwhelmed by all those Black (and White) choices and for now will stick to the Slav. Maybe in the future when I have more time and opportunity?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #8 - 04/08/16 at 05:15:08
Post Tools
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
urusov
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 147
Location: Kenilworth
Joined: 08/04/05
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #7 - 04/08/16 at 03:53:30
Post Tools
I have recently returned to the KID myself after many years, as I found that I also felt most comfortable in the typical KID positions.  When I last played the KID, I would try to avoid tough lines like the 4 Pawns Attack and the Saemisch by waiting until White committed to Nf3 to adopt the KID and playing various other lines if he did not (such as the Old Indian with d6 and Bf5, the Budapest Gambit, or the Tango with Nc6).  But coming back to the KID now I have decided to go all in and create a KID-only repertoire.

I have found Dejan Bojkov's "Modernized" approach to the KID most appealing, as it definitely cuts down on the theory to some extent:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/04/review-of-dejan-bojkovs-modernized.htm...
That repertoire focuses on the idea of an early ...c6 and eventual ...d5 in many lines, which I like a lot.  Bojkov also has an excellent ChessBase DVD that focuses more on the early Na6 lines, which are also interesting.

Besides Bojkov's work, I also like Eugene Perelshteyn's various videos (at Chess.com, ChessLecture.com, and on DVD) on his approach to the KID with Na6 and some interesting lines vs. common White systems, such as the Byrne Variation (with c6, a6 and b5 with delayed castling) vs the Saemisch and the Kavalek (with c6 and Qa5) vs the Fianchetto.  I have put together bibliographies on these systems if you are interested:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/02/classical-kings-indian-with-6na6.html
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-kavalek-system-vs-kings-indian.htm...
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/03/samisch-kings-indian-byrne-system-e80....

Ultimately, if you choose less mainstream systems in the KID then the emphasis will be less on theory and more on ideas, as most opponents will not know what they are doing.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
WSS
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 273
Joined: 04/22/11
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #6 - 04/07/16 at 17:36:25
Post Tools
TalJechin wrote on 04/07/16 at 08:18:07:
I've also been toying with the idea of returning to the KID, but being 40+ I've noticed that chess books seem to get increasingly harder to read - so videos seems a good idea if combined with playing it a lot online and quick engine analysis of when something's gone bad.

Other ideas could be to limit White's options via a 1...d6 move order, play less theoretical Nbd7 systems, play generally KIDish via 1...g6 and/or look into unusual variations for Black - the Dangerous Weapons books a few years ago had some interesting suggestions - an early ...Nh5 for example - unless those ideas have been refuted since then?


For what it is worth, I switched to the King's Indian (from the Slav) in my 50's and have a nice + score without having lost a tournament game with it yet.  In my opinion one of the most important factors in picking an opening is whether you have a good "feel" for it - i.e. the ideas and plans come to you more naturally than another opening.  Especially with declining memory  Sad you are better able to find the right move over the board.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
God Member
*****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 625
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #5 - 04/07/16 at 09:44:29
Post Tools
JEH wrote on 04/07/16 at 09:21:04:
"if you don't like this then the Queen's Gambit Declined is for You"

I use the Slav as my main defence! Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #4 - 04/07/16 at 09:21:04
Post Tools
TalJechin wrote on 04/07/16 at 08:18:07:
Other ideas could be to limit White's options via a 1...d6 move order, play less theoretical Nbd7


That's what I do as I have 1. e4 d6 in my repertoire. Also possible is the Old Indian Move order after 1. ...Nf6 Nf6/d6/Nbd7/e5 and waiting for Nf3 before you play g6, thus cutting White systems e.g. with f3 or f4 or Nge2. I have also dabbled with the Na6 Classical. I would like to go full on with Nc6 at some point.

The only "theoretical" line I face regularly is the Fianchetto and I use a Nbd7 set up against that with both Qb6 and Qa5, well before seeing these covered in Bojkov's Modernized KID or Kotroinias's Telephone directory.

I am reminded at this point of a comment made by GM Alex Yermolinsky  in one of his ICC videos about the system he plays against the KID as White when referring to the concrete theoretical knowledge and tactics required to fully play the KID, he says "if you don't like this then the Queen's Gambit Declined is for You"  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #3 - 04/07/16 at 08:18:07
Post Tools
I've also been toying with the idea of returning to the KID, but being 40+ I've noticed that chess books seem to get increasingly harder to read - so videos seems a good idea if combined with playing it a lot online and quick engine analysis of when something's gone bad.

Other ideas could be to limit White's options via a 1...d6 move order, play less theoretical Nbd7 systems, play generally KIDish via 1...g6 and/or look into unusual variations for Black - the Dangerous Weapons books a few years ago had some interesting suggestions - an early ...Nh5 for example - unless those ideas have been refuted since then?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1826
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #2 - 04/04/16 at 21:25:34
Post Tools
I echo the RVK vids. I have found a few (what I believe to be) errors & omissions here and there, and maybe every recommendation might not be to your taste, but overall it's a very solid intro/guide to the KID. As WSS said, supplement it with whatever you'd like, be it a series of books or just simply checking everything with databases and engines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WSS
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 273
Joined: 04/22/11
Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #1 - 04/04/16 at 19:01:46
Post Tools
I would suggest watching Robin Van Kampen's "Cutting Edge KID" video series (and ebook) on chess24.com.  Since he "practices what he preaches", he picks good lines for Black and watching the videos would give you a nice refresher course on the King's Indian.  Then you can delve deeper on your own and decide if you like the lines that he suggests of prefer others.  Of course, I also highly recommend David Vigorito's two volume series on the King's Indian if you want to go deeper.  Again you will have to decide for yourself if you like the lines he chooses (such as the Panno).  Enjoy!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
God Member
*****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 625
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Return to the KID?
04/04/16 at 18:20:19
Post Tools
I abandoned the KID more than 10 years ago, because I found it much to theoretical (as I did with the Dragon).

But my loving feeling for it has never abandoned me (and also for the Dragon).

I am thinking about trying the KID again (and the Dragon...), but with all those books (and DVD's) from Bologan, Vigorito and Kotronias there is even more theory to absorb...

How does an amateur of about 1900-2000 strength keep up with that and doesn't get overwhelmed? How to choose your "ideal" repertoire (and remember it...) out of all those Black choices and the many options that White has?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo