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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Return to the KID? (Read 17452 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #29 - 07/01/16 at 18:07:10
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barnaby wrote on 04/10/16 at 21:33:46:
I love, LOVE the MDP from the White side but the recent Kotronias book has made me gun shy about it and after playing the main line Ne1 variation for 20+ years now I worry I may have to shelve the whole magilla and make another effort to learn another way to handle the KID.



That's ridiculous, you don't throw away 20+ years of experience because of a new repertoire book (unless you just really want to do something else).  Even when you're "caught out," your experience will often prevail from a slightly worse position.

Caveat that sometimes being caught out in the MDP means getting mated; oh well, such is life.  You learn from it and play the next game--it's just more experience!
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #28 - 04/15/16 at 14:33:31
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WSS wrote on 04/12/16 at 12:29:50:
RdC wrote on 04/11/16 at 23:20:39:
chk wrote on 04/11/16 at 13:45:25:
experience is what makes a KID player really dangerous as the positions are a bit messy


Even in a position that's apparently quiet, there can be something available. Here's a game I played at the weekend where my opponent used an old 1950s try by White.


Nice win, RdC.  Thanks for sharing.

I agree, TalJechin, the KID requires some "guts" (or shall we say the ability to play with the initiative and attack even at the cost of material.)  Over time, I had found my own game becoming a bit too "solid" and when I switched to the KID it helped me strengthen (revitalize?) that part of my game.  At least for me, it's fun to get your heart pounding and "go for it" sometimes - even if it doesn't always work out!


Bold emphasis mine.

I've always held the point of the game was to play and that people overly concerned with winning (or losing) have completely missed the point of the endeavour.

The happiest chess players I know are never the ones that are strongest. In fact, they tend to be among the most miserable, especially after they lose.  Poor souls.    Smiley

Mar Del Plata is fun stuff, and while I play for the win from wither side, I never care the end result.  It's all about the action.


Short of being a chess professional the point of any game is to be enjoyable. 

This is why people that play London systems and Colles are the bane of any true gamesmen.   Wink
  
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chk
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #27 - 04/15/16 at 13:36:03
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Nice game RdC, and yes, I suppose guts is an important element too!
  

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WSS
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #26 - 04/12/16 at 12:29:50
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RdC wrote on 04/11/16 at 23:20:39:
chk wrote on 04/11/16 at 13:45:25:
experience is what makes a KID player really dangerous as the positions are a bit messy


Even in a position that's apparently quiet, there can be something available. Here's a game I played at the weekend where my opponent used an old 1950s try by White.


Nice win, RdC.  Thanks for sharing.

I agree, TalJechin, the KID requires some "guts" (or shall we say the ability to play with the initiative and attack even at the cost of material.)  Over time, I had found my own game becoming a bit too "solid" and when I switched to the KID it helped me strengthen (revitalize?) that part of my game.  At least for me, it's fun to get your heart pounding and "go for it" sometimes - even if it doesn't always work out!
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #25 - 04/12/16 at 07:32:25
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chk wrote on 04/11/16 at 13:45:25:
Somehow reassuring what both of you say. I suppose experience is what makes a KID player really dangerous as the positions are a bit messy (to say the least)..


Maybe guts is also important? The willingness to follow your intuition and throw the dice with for example a N/B sac for 1-2 pawns - your experience may tell you that it's dubious (and later the engine will say the same), while over the board you force your opponents to prove why, and many (nearly all) of them will miss something in the complications (hopefully you will be able to spot it yourself)...
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #24 - 04/11/16 at 23:20:39
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chk wrote on 04/11/16 at 13:45:25:
experience is what makes a KID player really dangerous as the positions are a bit messy


Even in a position that's apparently quiet, there can be something available. Here's a game I played at the weekend where my opponent used an old 1950s try by White.




At move 17, there are a couple of previous games. One player just retreated back to a6, whilst the other kept the tactics going with Nxe4.  Parking a replacement Knight on f4 seemed logical and perhaps it would provoke Bxf4. According to an engine, White's errors were at moves 21 and 22, where it was necessary to play Be1. Again according to the engine, White is busted after 22. c5 Qg5, the tempo being necessary to shore up the defence.
  
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chk
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #23 - 04/11/16 at 13:45:25
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Somehow reassuring what both of you say. I suppose experience is what makes a KID player really dangerous as the positions are a bit messy (to say the least)..
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #22 - 04/10/16 at 21:33:46
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I love, LOVE the MDP from the White side but the recent Kotronias book has made me gun shy about it and after playing the main line Ne1 variation for 20+ years now I worry I may have to shelve the whole magilla and make another effort to learn another way to handle the KID.


If I could get the MDP on board in even 1/3 of KID games as Black I would play the KID like a mofo.  Too many anti-lines and avoidances of the main, principled argument.  To me, that is like going 3,000+ miles to The Prado only to stand outside and look at chalk drawings on the sidewalk instead of what is inside.

Big centers.  Still addicted after all these years.  Even though they are all going to collapse and disappear, I just can't help myself on wanting one!
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #21 - 04/10/16 at 16:22:22
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chk wrote on 04/10/16 at 09:56:57:
I have recently returned to the KID myself (I had a similar post here sth like a year ago). My experience can be summarised as follows:

- In order to get started videos seem to work a bit better than books, given the numerous ML variations & systems. You could then play a bit and then start utilising also books and/or databases.
- Sidelines & all MLs except the MDP: I quite much feel at home and had decent results OTB. Ironically these were the ones that worried me the most before I decided to give KID another try.
- MDP: For me liking the MDP was fundamental in my decision to opt for the KID. But contrary to what I mention above, I think I seriously lack understanding of what is going on. To be more specific, I do not sense well when my attack runs out of steam and in general how dangerous its potential could be.

I wish I could offer you a "magic formula" to master the MDP - but, of course, I can't.  I find it helpful to play SLOWLY (versus skimming) through games guessing moves, noting patterns and piece placement.  Often the play is balanced on a "knife's edge" but I take comfort in knowing that I have probably spent more time studying this than the player of the White pieces (unless he/she is a King's Indian player themselves!)
  
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chk
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #20 - 04/10/16 at 09:56:57
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I have recently returned to the KID myself (I had a similar post here sth like a year ago). My experience can be summarised as follows:

- In order to get started videos seem to work a bit better than books, given the numerous ML variations & systems. You could then play a bit and then start utilising also books and/or databases.
- Sidelines & all MLs except the MDP: I quite much feel at home and had decent results OTB. Ironically these were the ones that worried me the most before I decided to give KID another try.
- MDP: For me liking the MDP was fundamental in my decision to opt for the KID. But contrary to what I mention above, I think I seriously lack understanding of what is going on. To be more specific, I do not sense well when my attack runs out of steam and in general how dangerous its potential could be.
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #19 - 04/09/16 at 09:17:21
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TonyRo wrote on 04/08/16 at 19:20:28:
If you're not going to play the Mar Del Plata, what's the point?  Cheesy Grin

I jest. But seriously!  Wink


Well, perhaps you instinctively hate the Mar Del Plata style positions but actually quite like some of the other lines Smiley

Or some of lines vs the English etc you can get if you can at least threaten to play the KID.

That was certainly what I was doing.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #18 - 04/08/16 at 20:47:12
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kylemeister wrote on 04/08/16 at 19:36:59:
TalJechin wrote on 04/08/16 at 19:12:49:
The engine prefers 10...d5 which feels unKIDish though...


Well surely ...d5 is something Black is aiming to play if circumstances are favorable enough.  As far as I know, a big development in this line was when it was shown to be unfavorable after 10. Kh1 by a game Tal-Spassky.


Yeah, but here it feels more like an attempt to force a drawish position. Usually, the break d6-d5, if prepared well, is the start of taking the initiative as Black.

But maybe I'm just old-fashioned - engines have a way of finding ways to force moves through that didn't seem possible, by throwing away most positional considerations. I remember a similar case in the Antoshin Philidor where Nisipeneau played d6-d5 very early - never liked that one either, though admittedly it was probably not intended to force a draw. In the end white usually finds some slight risk-free technical/positional edge in the complications, and black moves on to do something similar in another opening variation...
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #17 - 04/08/16 at 19:36:59
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TalJechin wrote on 04/08/16 at 19:12:49:
The engine prefers 10...d5 which feels unKIDish though...


Well surely ...d5 is something Black is aiming to play if circumstances are favorable enough.  As far as I know, a big development in this line was when it was shown to be unfavorable after 10. Kh1 by a game Tal-Spassky.
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #16 - 04/08/16 at 19:24:29
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TonyRo wrote on 04/08/16 at 19:20:28:
If you're not going to play the Mar Del Plata, what's the point?  Cheesy Grin

I jest. But seriously!  Wink


Haha.  Amen, Tony!
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #15 - 04/08/16 at 19:20:28
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If you're not going to play the Mar Del Plata, what's the point?  Cheesy Grin

I jest. But seriously!  Wink
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #14 - 04/08/16 at 19:12:49
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13...Nd7 seems to be sound enough, at least in the two corr-games.

The engine prefers 10...d5 which feels unKIDish though...

  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #13 - 04/08/16 at 18:58:39
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Fllg wrote on 04/08/16 at 16:18:23:
Regarding Bojkov´s coverage in "Modernized: The King´s Indian" I´m slightly worried about the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O exd4 8. Nxd4 Re8 9. f3 c6 10. Bf4 which isn´t covered in the book and has a big plus score, albeit from only 31 games in my database.

The thematic 10...Nh5 11. Be3 f5 12. Qd2 f4 13. Bf2 isn´t satisfying for Black in my opinion.



Indeed, this type of position is not what I'm looking for when I'm playing the King's Indian.  White has a nice Maroczy structure with lasting pressure on my vulnerable d6-pawn whose defense is weakened by Black's kingside fianchetto.  Moreover, Black lacks counterplay compared to normal KID lines (or even a hedgehog structure) and seems doomed to defend.

This approach in the Classical was the first thing I discarded when reviewing the book (I think some of the other lines are fine.)  I also tried out the 6...Na6 lines in the Classical but again felt that the positions that arose lacked dynamic counterplay.
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #12 - 04/08/16 at 16:52:32
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Fllg wrote on 04/08/16 at 16:18:23:
Regarding Bojkov´s coverage in "Modernized: The King´s Indian" I´m slightly worried about the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O exd4 8. Nxd4 Re8 9. f3 c6 10. Bf4 which isn´t covered in the book and has a big plus score, albeit from only 31 games in my database.

The thematic 10...Nh5 11. Be3 f5 12. Qd2 f4 13. Bf2 isn´t satisfying for Black in my opinion.



I wondered about that too.  I know of a number of books which have either ignored 10. Bf4 or given it a question mark.
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #11 - 04/08/16 at 16:18:23
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Regarding Bojkov´s coverage in "Modernized: The King´s Indian" I´m slightly worried about the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O exd4 8. Nxd4 Re8 9. f3 c6 10. Bf4 which isn´t covered in the book and has a big plus score, albeit from only 31 games in my database.

The thematic 10...Nh5 11. Be3 f5 12. Qd2 f4 13. Bf2 isn´t satisfying for Black in my opinion.

  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #10 - 04/08/16 at 12:31:40
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urusov wrote on 04/08/16 at 03:53:30:
I have recently returned to the KID myself after many years, as I found that I also felt most comfortable in the typical KID positions.  When I last played the KID, I would try to avoid tough lines like the 4 Pawns Attack and the Saemisch by waiting until White committed to Nf3 to adopt the KID and playing various other lines if he did not (such as the Old Indian with d6 and Bf5, the Budapest Gambit, or the Tango with Nc6).  But coming back to the KID now I have decided to go all in and create a KID-only repertoire.

I have found Dejan Bojkov's "Modernized" approach to the KID most appealing, as it definitely cuts down on the theory to some extent:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/04/review-of-dejan-bojkovs-modernized.htm...
That repertoire focuses on the idea of an early ...c6 and eventual ...d5 in many lines, which I like a lot.  Bojkov also has an excellent ChessBase DVD that focuses more on the early Na6 lines, which are also interesting.

Besides Bojkov's work, I also like Eugene Perelshteyn's various videos (at Chess.com, ChessLecture.com, and on DVD) on his approach to the KID with Na6 and some interesting lines vs. common White systems, such as the Byrne Variation (with c6, a6 and b5 with delayed castling) vs the Saemisch and the Kavalek (with c6 and Qa5) vs the Fianchetto.  I have put together bibliographies on these systems if you are interested:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/02/classical-kings-indian-with-6na6.html
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-kavalek-system-vs-kings-indian.htm...
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/03/samisch-kings-indian-byrne-system-e80....

Ultimately, if you choose less mainstream systems in the KID then the emphasis will be less on theory and more on ideas, as most opponents will not know what they are doing.


Urusov, I am interested in your comments and experiences.  I've looked at the lines in Bojkov's book and Eugene Perelshteyn's various videos as well since the idea of slightly offbeat (but sound) lines is certainly appealing.  However, it always seem to me that Black's resulting positions had much more limited winning chances against strong opponents (against a weaker opponent either will work) and indeed when I experimented with it OTB I ended up drawing.  Ultimately I decided that if I was going to play the KID (with the risk it entails), I wanted to maximize my winning chances which lie primarily in the main lines.   Therefore I decided to put those lines on the shelf - but perhaps I'm being too harsh in my assessment.

I see that the OP has decided to stay with his Slav, but I'd be interested in your thoughts (or others) on this topic.
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #9 - 04/08/16 at 06:49:04
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TD wrote on 04/04/16 at 18:20:19:
How does an amateur of about 1900-2000 strength keep up with that and doesn't get overwhelmed? How to choose your "ideal" repertoire (and remember it...) out of all those Black choices and the many options that White has?

Thanks everybody for your input! But I still am feeling overwhelmed by all those Black (and White) choices and for now will stick to the Slav. Maybe in the future when I have more time and opportunity?
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #8 - 04/08/16 at 05:15:08
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Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #7 - 04/08/16 at 03:53:30
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I have recently returned to the KID myself after many years, as I found that I also felt most comfortable in the typical KID positions.  When I last played the KID, I would try to avoid tough lines like the 4 Pawns Attack and the Saemisch by waiting until White committed to Nf3 to adopt the KID and playing various other lines if he did not (such as the Old Indian with d6 and Bf5, the Budapest Gambit, or the Tango with Nc6).  But coming back to the KID now I have decided to go all in and create a KID-only repertoire.

I have found Dejan Bojkov's "Modernized" approach to the KID most appealing, as it definitely cuts down on the theory to some extent:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/04/review-of-dejan-bojkovs-modernized.htm...
That repertoire focuses on the idea of an early ...c6 and eventual ...d5 in many lines, which I like a lot.  Bojkov also has an excellent ChessBase DVD that focuses more on the early Na6 lines, which are also interesting.

Besides Bojkov's work, I also like Eugene Perelshteyn's various videos (at Chess.com, ChessLecture.com, and on DVD) on his approach to the KID with Na6 and some interesting lines vs. common White systems, such as the Byrne Variation (with c6, a6 and b5 with delayed castling) vs the Saemisch and the Kavalek (with c6 and Qa5) vs the Fianchetto.  I have put together bibliographies on these systems if you are interested:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/02/classical-kings-indian-with-6na6.html
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-kavalek-system-vs-kings-indian.htm...
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2014/03/samisch-kings-indian-byrne-system-e80....

Ultimately, if you choose less mainstream systems in the KID then the emphasis will be less on theory and more on ideas, as most opponents will not know what they are doing.
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #6 - 04/07/16 at 17:36:25
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TalJechin wrote on 04/07/16 at 08:18:07:
I've also been toying with the idea of returning to the KID, but being 40+ I've noticed that chess books seem to get increasingly harder to read - so videos seems a good idea if combined with playing it a lot online and quick engine analysis of when something's gone bad.

Other ideas could be to limit White's options via a 1...d6 move order, play less theoretical Nbd7 systems, play generally KIDish via 1...g6 and/or look into unusual variations for Black - the Dangerous Weapons books a few years ago had some interesting suggestions - an early ...Nh5 for example - unless those ideas have been refuted since then?


For what it is worth, I switched to the King's Indian (from the Slav) in my 50's and have a nice + score without having lost a tournament game with it yet.  In my opinion one of the most important factors in picking an opening is whether you have a good "feel" for it - i.e. the ideas and plans come to you more naturally than another opening.  Especially with declining memory  Sad you are better able to find the right move over the board.
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #5 - 04/07/16 at 09:44:29
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JEH wrote on 04/07/16 at 09:21:04:
"if you don't like this then the Queen's Gambit Declined is for You"

I use the Slav as my main defence! Wink
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #4 - 04/07/16 at 09:21:04
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TalJechin wrote on 04/07/16 at 08:18:07:
Other ideas could be to limit White's options via a 1...d6 move order, play less theoretical Nbd7


That's what I do as I have 1. e4 d6 in my repertoire. Also possible is the Old Indian Move order after 1. ...Nf6 Nf6/d6/Nbd7/e5 and waiting for Nf3 before you play g6, thus cutting White systems e.g. with f3 or f4 or Nge2. I have also dabbled with the Na6 Classical. I would like to go full on with Nc6 at some point.

The only "theoretical" line I face regularly is the Fianchetto and I use a Nbd7 set up against that with both Qb6 and Qa5, well before seeing these covered in Bojkov's Modernized KID or Kotroinias's Telephone directory.

I am reminded at this point of a comment made by GM Alex Yermolinsky  in one of his ICC videos about the system he plays against the KID as White when referring to the concrete theoretical knowledge and tactics required to fully play the KID, he says "if you don't like this then the Queen's Gambit Declined is for You"  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #3 - 04/07/16 at 08:18:07
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I've also been toying with the idea of returning to the KID, but being 40+ I've noticed that chess books seem to get increasingly harder to read - so videos seems a good idea if combined with playing it a lot online and quick engine analysis of when something's gone bad.

Other ideas could be to limit White's options via a 1...d6 move order, play less theoretical Nbd7 systems, play generally KIDish via 1...g6 and/or look into unusual variations for Black - the Dangerous Weapons books a few years ago had some interesting suggestions - an early ...Nh5 for example - unless those ideas have been refuted since then?
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #2 - 04/04/16 at 21:25:34
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I echo the RVK vids. I have found a few (what I believe to be) errors & omissions here and there, and maybe every recommendation might not be to your taste, but overall it's a very solid intro/guide to the KID. As WSS said, supplement it with whatever you'd like, be it a series of books or just simply checking everything with databases and engines.
  
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Re: Return to the KID?
Reply #1 - 04/04/16 at 19:01:46
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I would suggest watching Robin Van Kampen's "Cutting Edge KID" video series (and ebook) on chess24.com.  Since he "practices what he preaches", he picks good lines for Black and watching the videos would give you a nice refresher course on the King's Indian.  Then you can delve deeper on your own and decide if you like the lines that he suggests of prefer others.  Of course, I also highly recommend David Vigorito's two volume series on the King's Indian if you want to go deeper.  Again you will have to decide for yourself if you like the lines he chooses (such as the Panno).  Enjoy!
  
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Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 562
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Return to the KID?
04/04/16 at 18:20:19
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I abandoned the KID more than 10 years ago, because I found it much to theoretical (as I did with the Dragon).

But my loving feeling for it has never abandoned me (and also for the Dragon).

I am thinking about trying the KID again (and the Dragon...), but with all those books (and DVD's) from Bologan, Vigorito and Kotronias there is even more theory to absorb...

How does an amateur of about 1900-2000 strength keep up with that and doesn't get overwhelmed? How to choose your "ideal" repertoire (and remember it...) out of all those Black choices and the many options that White has?
  
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