Latest Updates:
Normal Topic 9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8, why so rare? (Read 6142 times)
George Jempty
Full Member
***
Offline


Participant 1996 US Corres.
Champ. Qualifying Rd.

Posts: 201
Location: Carrollton, TX
Joined: 03/29/09
Gender: Male
Re: 9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8, why so rare?
Reply #8 - 05/03/16 at 16:33:32
Post Tools
Well I've completed 2 engines-off correspondence games on chess.com in the meantime, and one conclusion I've come to is that in a couple of cases at least, this line with 9...Na5 and 10...Re8 will merely transpose to other variations.

The first of those transpositions is if White plays 11.d3 and if play then proceeds 11...c5 12.Nbd2 a common position arises that typically originates from 9.d3 and Fischer even won from this position against Spassky in their rematch.

The second of those transpositiions arises if White plays 11.d4 and then responds to 11...exd4 12.cxd4 c5 with 13.d5.  Then after 13...Nd7 a position arises that can be reached via the move order 10...c5 11.d4 exd4 12.cxd4 Re8 13.d5 Nd7 for which I find one example, an email correspondence game between a couple of 2300+ players in 2013.

Going further though, if 14.Nbd2 Bf6, we reach a position that can be reached in this manner: 10...c5 11.d4 Nd7 (Keres' variation) 12.Nbd2 exd4 13.cxd4 Re8 14.d5, and there are an additional half dozen high level games involving 2400+ players, including Nigel Short twice, once with White, once with Black.

Interestingly I was thinking about adopting the Keres' variation, so first exploring the 9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8 move order may be my gateway.  Will probably pick up the Nigel Davies' book "Play 1.e4 e5" from 2005 which I think has the most coverage of any relatively recent book on the Keres' variation, though the line with 14.d5 did not first get played until 2008 so don't know if it will have coverage of 14.d5
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George Jempty
Full Member
***
Offline


Participant 1996 US Corres.
Champ. Qualifying Rd.

Posts: 201
Location: Carrollton, TX
Joined: 03/29/09
Gender: Male
Re: 9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8, why so rare?
Reply #7 - 04/19/16 at 11:18:08
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 04/15/16 at 12:25:26:
MartinC wrote on 04/15/16 at 09:20:12:
11 d4 I presume :


Lutikov continued 11. .. Bb7, which could become a Zaitsev even if that was in the future in 1969.

Comparing it to main lines of the Zaitsev, the Na5 idea isn't always played.

The famous Fischer - Stein game is from the same era and also a type of proto - Zaitsev. That went 9 .. Bb7 10. d4 Na5 11. Bc2 Nc4 12. b3 Nb6 13. Nbd2 Nbd7

Stein's idea, like that in most Zaitsev variations appears to have been to play exd4 and look for activity with pawns on the Queen side.



And Stein's idea could be applied after 11.d4 in the line Lutikov played by substituting his 11...Bb7 with 11...exd4 12.cxd4 c5.  Interestingly as I did more research, the position after 11.d4 can be reached via a rare sideline in the 9...Re8 variation: 10.d4 Na5 11.Bc2.  The above idea (11...exd4 12.cxd4 c5) was employed in 2 correspondence games at the 2475+ level in 2013, both ending in draws.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 865
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: 9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8, why so rare?
Reply #6 - 04/19/16 at 08:33:50
Post Tools
Lauri Torni wrote on 04/18/16 at 09:20:22:
Look like a Breyer where black has lost at leat 1.5 tempos



That's what they said about it at the time and to date no-one has taken Stein's idea and refined it into a popular system.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 269
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: 9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8, why so rare?
Reply #5 - 04/18/16 at 09:20:22
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 04/15/16 at 12:25:26:
MartinC wrote on 04/15/16 at 09:20:12:
11 d4 I presume :


Lutikov continued 11. .. Bb7, which could become a Zaitsev even if that was in the future in 1969.

Comparing it to main lines of the Zaitsev, the Na5 idea isn't always played.

The famous Fischer - Stein game is from the same era and also a type of proto - Zaitsev. That went 9 .. Bb7 10. d4 Na5 11. Bc2 Nc4 12. b3 Nb6 13. Nbd2 Nbd7

Stein's idea, like that in most Zaitsev variations appears to have been to play exd4 and look for activity with pawns on the Queen side.



Look like a Breyer where black has lost at leat 1.5 tempos  Cool
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 865
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: 9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8, why so rare?
Reply #4 - 04/15/16 at 12:25:26
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 04/15/16 at 09:20:12:
11 d4 I presume :


Lutikov continued 11. .. Bb7, which could become a Zaitsev even if that was in the future in 1969.

Comparing it to main lines of the Zaitsev, the Na5 idea isn't always played.

The famous Fischer - Stein game is from the same era and also a type of proto - Zaitsev. That went 9 .. Bb7 10. d4 Na5 11. Bc2 Nc4 12. b3 Nb6 13. Nbd2 Nbd7

Stein's idea, like that in most Zaitsev variations appears to have been to play exd4 and look for activity with pawns on the Queen side.





  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1986
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: 9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8, why so rare?
Reply #3 - 04/15/16 at 09:20:12
Post Tools
11 d4 I presume Smiley

Suspect there almost doesn't need to be a particular point to attract him, he's wondering if there's an active anti point.

It would rather surprise if there was a strong one - Na5 and Re8 are both logical enough moves and, even if they don't automatically fit into one plan, they don't obviously get in each others way either.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 269
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: 9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8, why so rare?
Reply #2 - 04/15/16 at 09:05:22
Post Tools
George Jempty wrote on 04/14/16 at 03:48:17:
9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8 seems like a not unreasonable plan to me: first get White to move his bishop off the a2-g8 diagonal, and only then play ...Re8 when Ng5 no longer accomplishes anything (like a potential draw for a weaker player).  Why is this so rare?  You might say it's anti-thematic, that ...Na5 prepared ...c5, but that latter is still a possibility albeit delayed.

The earliest game I can find with it given my limited resources is Barczay-Lutikov, Sarajevo 1969, 1/2-1/2.  Does anybody know of any earlier instances?

In any case I plan on trying it out next chance I get.  I've got a "engines-off" game going on right now on chess.com but my opponent played the non-critical 12.d3 when 12...c5 seems pretty nearly equal.  Critical seem to be 12.d4 or 12.b4 when I don't think White is getting all that much more of a slight advantage then in a lot of other lines in the Closed Spanish.



10.d4 and how are you now going to proceed? What's the point?
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4653
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8, why so rare?
Reply #1 - 04/14/16 at 08:24:24
Post Tools
An old ECO bit cited Barczay-Lutikov as slightly better for White after 14. Nh2.  Offhand hardly clear to me.  BTW I recall Soltis (Pawn Structure Chess) calling this a Rauzer structure.  Cf.  the once popular line 10...c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. Nbd2 Nc6 13. dc (13. d5 came to be regarded as preferable).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George Jempty
Full Member
***
Offline


Participant 1996 US Corres.
Champ. Qualifying Rd.

Posts: 201
Location: Carrollton, TX
Joined: 03/29/09
Gender: Male
9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8, why so rare?
04/14/16 at 03:48:17
Post Tools
9...Na5 10.Bc2 Re8 seems like a not unreasonable plan to me: first get White to move his bishop off the a2-g8 diagonal, and only then play ...Re8 when Ng5 no longer accomplishes anything (like a potential draw for a weaker player).  Why is this so rare?  You might say it's anti-thematic, that ...Na5 prepared ...c5, but that latter is still a possibility albeit delayed.

The earliest game I can find with it given my limited resources is Barczay-Lutikov, Sarajevo 1969, 1/2-1/2.  Does anybody know of any earlier instances?

In any case I plan on trying it out next chance I get.  I've got a "engines-off" game going on right now on chess.com but my opponent played the non-critical 12.d3 when 12...c5 seems pretty nearly equal.  Critical seem to be 12.d4 or 12.b4 when I don't think White is getting all that much more of a slight advantage then in a lot of other lines in the Closed Spanish.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo