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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies (Read 34407 times)
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #49 - 01/23/18 at 06:45:43
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Hi.

MNb wrote on 01/23/18 at 00:07:37:
-8...Be6 9.a3 b5 10.Kb1 b4 11.axb4 Qxb4 12.Bxg7 Kxg7 13.e5 Häusler-Kreutz, corr ICCF 2011.

I was mildly impressed by how easily black got a good game with this 8...Be6 in the corr game you mentioned:



Black had easy equality at several points despite the end result. Sadly though 9.h4 looks considerably stronger so I would still stay away from 8...Be6. Cry

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #48 - 01/23/18 at 00:07:37
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/19/18 at 11:18:04:
maybe 5...Qa5!? could be an ok fallback option. Black should be able to win a tempo against the f4 bishop with e7-e5 at some point if white plays calmly. He doesn't have to and can play stuff like Bc4 and 0-0-0 which may give some chances but even here black is generally not straddled with positions that look so bad to my eyes.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5 6.Nf3 Bg7

6...Nbd7 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Ng4 Gavrivlov-Tseshkovsky. St. Peterburg 2003 and Rybka likes 9.e6!?

7.O-O-O O-O
-7...Nbd7 (never been played) 8.Bh6 (back to the 150-Attack) Bxh6 9.Qxh6 e5? 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Bc4 with a decisive advantage due to the weakness of f7.
-7...b5 8.e5 dxe5 9.dxe5 Nh5 10.Nxb5 (Rybka likes 10.Bg5 better) Qxd2+ 11.Bxd2 cxb5 12.Bxb5+ (analysis in Fernschach) Bd7 13.Bxd7+ Nxd7 14.g4 and White wins the piece back with good play.
-7...Bg4 8.h3 Bxf3 9.gxf3 Nbd7 10.Kb1 with promising play due to the bishop pair, reminiscent to the 150-Attack.
-7...Be6 8.a3 (8.Kb1? Nxe4!) eg b5 9.Kb1 b4 10.axb4 Qxb4 11.e5 and Black's "attack" didn't go anywhere.

8.Bh6 Bg4
-8...Nbd7 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.e5 Dunnington-Kleinschmidt, Biel 1992.
-8...Be6 9.a3 b5 10.Kb1 b4 11.axb4 Qxb4 12.Bxg7 Kxg7 13.e5 Häusler-Kreutz, corr ICCF 2011.

9.Kb1
Rybka likes 9.e5 Nd5 10.Nxd5 Qxd2+ 11.Bxd2 cxd5 12.exd6 exd6 13.Bf4 but I'm not convinced.
9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.Be2 Nbd7 11.h3 Bxf3 12.Bxf3 allows 12...c5 so 10.Kb1 is better again.

9...Nbd7 10.Be2 e5 11.Bxg7 Kxg7 12.h3 Bxf3 13.Bxf3 b5
In Christiansen-Benjamin, USAch 1997, White got outplayed. Maybe White should have maintained the tension in the centre.
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #47 - 01/19/18 at 18:25:49
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Just reposting this since I discovered I left out a move pair in my previous post, and I'm too late to change it:

Stigma wrote on 01/18/18 at 09:16:04:
Hmmm. Yes, now that I look at it, 4.Bf4 seems annoying. It's also scored extremely well in OTB games the last few years - don't know how I've missed this trend.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/18/18 at 00:07:33:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 a6 5.e5
Looks not so appetizing for black either in my view.

I have to agree. I looked at this with Stockfish, but the best Black continuation I've been able to come up with so far is 5...Nh5 6.Be3 dxe5 (6...Nc6?! 7.f4 dxe5 8.fxe5! {Instead of allowing the unclear piece sac 8.d5 Nb4 9.a3 exf4!}) 7.dxe5 Qxd1+ 8.Rxd1 Be6 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.Ng5 Bf5 11.e6 fxe6 12.Bc4 +=
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #46 - 01/19/18 at 11:18:04
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Hi.

Continuing the tossing up of lines. Instead of going for b5 early maybe 5...Qa5!? could be an ok fallback option. Black should be able to win a tempo against the f4 bishop with e7-e5 at some point if white plays calmly. He doesn't have to and can play stuff like Bc4 and 0-0-0 which may give some chances but even here black is generally not straddled with positions that look so bad to my eyes.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5
Compare with 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5 (6.f4 += to +/-) and 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5 (6.h3 Bg7 7.f4 +=). Here the bishop is probably less well placed since white a) does not have f2-f4 and b) Probably has to move the bishop if black gets in e7-e5.
6.Nf3 Bg7
6...Nbd7 7.Bc4!? Bg7; 7...b5 8.Bd3 Bg7 9.0-0 += White seems better placed; 8.0-0 0-0 9.e5 dxe5 10.dxe5 Nh5 11.e6 fxe6 12.Bxe6+ (+= White has some pull)
6...Bg4!? could possibly be best although to me it seems like much depends on the evaluation of: 7.e5 Nh5 8.exd6 Bxf3 9.gxf3 Nxf4!? 10.Qxf4 e6 11.0-0-0 Qf5 12.Qg3 Bh6+ 13.Kb1 Bf4 14.Qh4 (+=/= With some small pull for white in a simplified position)
7.Bc4!?
7.Bh6? Bxh6 8.Qxh6 Nxe4 (-/+) Is a definite tactical point.
7.h3 Nbd7 8.0-0-0 0-0 9.Bh6 e5 (= to += It is not obvious how white continues to put pressure on black.)
7.0-0-0 Bg4 8.Be2 0-0 9.Kb1 Nbd7 10.h3 Bxf3 10.Bxf3 Rfd8 (+= white is probably slightly for choice but black should have a playable position)
7...b5
7...Bg4?! 8.e5 Nh5 9.Ng5 d5 10.Nxd5! Qxd2+ 11.Bxd2 cxd5 12.Bxd5 Nc6 13.Bxf7+ Kf8 14.c3 (+= With likely more than enough compensation for the piece)
7...0-0 8.0-0 and it is not obvious how black plays.
8.Bd3
8.Bb3!? b4 9.Na4 Nxe4 10.Qe3 d5 (With compensation for white)
8...Bg4 9.e5!?
9.0-0 Bxf3 10.gxf3 0-0 11.Ne2 Qxd2 12.Bxd2 (= to +=)
9...Nh5 10.exd6 Bxf3 11.gxf3 Nxf4 12.Qxf4 e5!?
With dark square chances for black, even if it is by no means clear if he has enough play afterwards.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #45 - 01/18/18 at 15:25:08
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Hello again.

Another idea I wondered about if it could be any good here was:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Nbd7
I think it is probably not but as always white probably needs to meet it effectively.

Normally Nbd7 would be met by f2-f4 at some point and then generally black would be a bit sorry about having two clumsy knights so to speak. Here this is not allowed though. Instead 5.Nf3 looks best and then, as I imagine it conceptually, black would play something like:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Nbd7 5.Nf3
5.Qd2 e5 6.dxe5 dxe5 7.Bg3 Qe7 (Black is OK)
5.e5?! Nh5 6.Be3 dxe5 7.dxe5 Nxe5 8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 (=+ to =)
5...Bg7
5...c6 6.Qd2
6.Qd2 c5
or 6...0-0 7.0-0-0 c5

It seems to lead to a not so great dragon though; which is a bit sad.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #44 - 01/18/18 at 14:49:37
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Hi.

I think you are right that:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.Bd3
is the way to go.

The grand plan behind 5...b5 was that 6.f3 Nbd7 would be decent for black but after 6.Bd3 the position does not appear to compare favorably against similar positions with the bishop on e3.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #43 - 01/18/18 at 13:49:54
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kylemeister wrote on 01/18/18 at 09:10:05:
At first I wondered if I had had too much to drink, but 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.Qd2 Nc6 6.0-0-0 0-0 7. f3 e5 looks tactically bad, no?

Yes it does. I shouldn't look at positions when I'm just awake.


Stigma wrote on 01/18/18 at 09:16:04:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5
This however looks like a decent answer. Black may be playing a different system than he normally would against 4.Be3/5.Qd2 (if he prefers 4.Be3 a6 or 4.Be3 Bg7 there), but at least some of the sharpest 4.Be3 c6 lines are off the table - those where White combines a d4-d5 break with Bd4.

I'd say the bishop is more active on f4 than on e3 in this case. After 6.Bd3 Nbd7 7.Nf3 White threatens 8.e5 and Bg7 8.Bh6 transposes to a pretty good version of the 150-Attack. Also 6.Bd3 Bg7 can be answered with 7.Bh6.
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #42 - 01/18/18 at 09:16:04
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Hmmm. Yes, now that I look at it, 4.Bf4 seems annoying. It's also scored extremely well in OTB games the last few years - don't know how I've missed this trend.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/18/18 at 00:07:33:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 a6 5.e5
Looks not so appetizing for black either in my view.

I have to agree. I looked at this with Stockfish, but the best Black continuation I've been able to come up with so far is 6...dxe5 (6...Nc6?! 7.f4 dxe5 8.fxe5! {Instead of allowing the unclear piece sac 8.d5 Nb4 9.a3 exf4!}) 7.dxe5 Qxd1+ 8.Rxd1 Be6 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.Ng5 Bf5 11.e6 fxe6 12.Bc4 +=

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/18/18 at 00:07:33:
Maybe:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5

This however looks like a decent answer. Black may be playing a different system than he normally would against 4.Be3/5.Qd2 (if he prefers 4.Be3 a6 or 4.Be3 Bg7 there), but at least some of the sharpest 4.Be3 c6 lines are off the table - those where White combines a d4-d5 break with Bd4.
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #41 - 01/18/18 at 09:10:05
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At first I wondered if I had had too much to drink, but 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.Qd2 Nc6 6.0-0-0 0-0 7. f3 e5 looks tactically bad, no?
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #40 - 01/18/18 at 08:28:05
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/18/18 at 00:07:33:
I also don't really like the look of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.Qd2 Nc6
(6.0-0-0 with the knight not obviously being especially good on c6)

But how good does the bishop look on f4 actually? There is no (favourable) transposition to the Argentinean Attack (or Philidor, Larsen Variation) here as O-O 7.f3 e5 is fine. White won in a game Rapport-Bobras, 2013 with 7.Bh6 e5 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.d5 Nd4 but I strongly doubt if Black's opening play is to be blamed, White having the black squared bishops changed. That leaves White with 7.Nf3 Bg4 and again White won in Vorotnikov-Gubanov, St. Petersburg 1997 after 8.Be2 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 e5 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Be3 but again - what does White have after Qe7? In the three games from my database WHite couldn't prove anything. Plus Black has 8...d5 and perhaps even 8...Re8 (though 9.e5 looks a bit dangerous). White's best may be 8.Qe3.
I'd like to be convinced, because when heading for my beloved Argentinean Attack 4.Bf4 avoids some reliable variations for Black.
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #39 - 01/18/18 at 00:07:33
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Hello.

PatzerKing wrote on 01/15/18 at 13:43:06:
What is the recomendation in the book for the line 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4?

See Stigma's post.

PatzerKing wrote on 01/15/18 at 13:43:06:
What about the analysis of 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6? Is it useful?

As a practical player the answer would be yes. Theoretically I have not gone red team against the analysis presented so cannot really say.
In the lines he chooses to cover with more games (i.e. 4.Be3 a6 5.h3 and 4.Be3 a6 5.Nf3) coverage looks to focus on what looks like decent lines at least so that is good.

PatzerKing wrote on 01/15/18 at 13:43:06:
Have you seen any move order issues like in the book of Marin?

Nope. But I will read a bit more and see if I can spot any.

RdC wrote on 01/16/18 at 17:10:31:
Whilst one might regard 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 as "mostly harmless", there is a variation now played by English GMs Hebden and Williams which can run 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4

If you just continue 4. .. d6, then after Qd2 you are now defending a 150 Attack.

Yes. This is quite possible.

It should be mentioned though that you have already played Bg7 here so if you want the more flexible version of the 4.Bf4 Pirc you should probably consider:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.Nc3 d6 4.e4

Stigma wrote on 01/16/18 at 22:30:46:
I haven't kept up with the Pirc debates here lately, so I don't know what the special problem with 4.Bf4 is.

But Davies actually covers it and takes it seriously. His main choice is based on lines with an early ...Nc6: 4.Bf4 Bg7 and now 5.Nf3 Nc6 or 5.Qd2 Nc6 (though his main line after 5.Qd2 Nc6 looks very scary for Black to my eyes). 4...a6 is suggested but not analyzed, while 4...Bg7 5.Nf3 a6!? is given a bit of analysis.

I also don't really like the look of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.Qd2 Nc6
(6.0-0-0 with the knight not obviously being especially good on c6)

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 a6 5.e5
Looks not so appetizing for black either in my view.

and quite possibly after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Qd2
It will be hard to find something distinct though still decent for black compared to the 4...Bg7 line.

So if white plays these ways I think I would not like to face 4.Bf4.

PatzerKing wrote on 01/16/18 at 15:05:31:
The main idea was to make all the lines working where Black plays …a6 especially in the 4.Be3/4,Bg5 variations. But I was wondering how to face 4.Bf4 without being move-ordered into the lines that Kornev or Marin mention after 4.Be3/4.Bf4.

Maybe:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #38 - 01/16/18 at 22:30:46
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I haven't kept up with the Pirc debates here lately, so I don't know what the special problem with 4.Bf4 is.

But Davies actually covers it and takes it seriously. His main choice is based on lines with an early ...Nc6: 4.Bf4 Bg7 and now 5.Nf3 Nc6 or 5.Qd2 Nc6 (though his main line after 5.Qd2 Nc6 looks very scary for Black to my eyes). 4...a6 is suggested but not analyzed, while 4...Bg7 5.Nf3 a6!? is given a bit of analysis.

The biggest hole in the book from my point of view has already been mentioned by Confused_by_Theory: He allows the dangerous 5...0-0 6.e5 Nfd7 7.Bc4 in the Austrian attack without even mentioning it. I thought this had already been discussed at length in The Modern Tiger, on member brabo's blog and no doubt in other sources, but Davies either ignored them or was unlucky with the timing of his writing process.

I haven't looked closely at his 4.Be3 a6 coverage, though it's probably the most extensive one available in book form, maybe apart from Moskalenko's in The Perfect Pirc-Modern. There may still be gaps in the coverage of course.

I really should look at this book more closely. It's likely to need some improvements here and there, but the repertoire Davies suggests is similar to what I actually play myself.
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #37 - 01/16/18 at 17:10:31
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PatzerKing wrote on 01/16/18 at 15:05:31:
But I was wondering how to face 4.Bf4 without being move-ordered into the lines that Kornev or Marin mention after 4.Be3/4.Bf4.


Whilst one might regard 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 as "mostly harmless", there is a variation now played by English GMs Hebden and Williams which can run 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4

If you just continue 4. .. d6, then after Qd2 you are now defending a 150 Attack.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #36 - 01/16/18 at 15:05:31
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Thanks!
The main idea was to make all the lines working where Black plays …a6 especially in the 4.Be3/4,Bg5 variations. But I was wondering how to face 4.Bf4 without being move-ordered into the lines that Kornev or Marin mention after 4.Be3/4.Bf4.
And regarding your question about my royality: I think I can claim to be a good candidate to be the king of all Patzers, because when I became a FM I managed to drop <2200 within 3 tournaments, with a loss of 35 Elo point in each tournament.  Tongue
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #35 - 01/16/18 at 14:25:47
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PatzerKing wrote on 01/15/18 at 13:43:06:
What is the recomendation in the book for the line 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4?
What about the analysis of 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6? Is it useful?
Have you seen any move order issues like in the book of Marin?

Thanks in advance for your answers!

Hello fellow Patzer and a big hail if you really are royalty.

Answering these things requires some looks in the book. I will check these things in the near future. Probably later today. Smiley

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #34 - 01/15/18 at 13:43:06
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What is the recomendation in the book for the line 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4?
What about the analysis of 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6? Is it useful?
Have you seen any move order issues like in the book of Marin?

Thanks in advance for your answers!
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #33 - 08/04/16 at 23:09:42
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Hello. Finally I have gotten hold of this book. Did a brief read and will share some things.

Austrian:(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4)
(4...Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0) is what's covered.

In the obligatory dismissal of 5...c5 Davies notes a familiar problem; namely the chance white has to enter a drawing line should black not play the risky (6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.e5 Ng4 8.e6 Bxb5 9.exf7+ Kd7). Not good is that the almost certainly better (9...Kf8), which  avoids the quick draw - rendering all reasoning about a forced draw considerably less relevant, is not mentioned at all.

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.Bd3 c5 8.d5 Bg4) Is the move recommended in this mainline position. (8...Rb8 gets literally no mention at all and 8...Nc7 is briefly explained as being a possibly premature retreat). The author covers (8...Bg4) with relatively many games.

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be3 Nbd7) Is preferred. In a cross-check with Greet's white repertoire book (beating unusual chess defences 1 e4, Everyman Chess, 2011) there is not much to compare. The author gives one (hardly relevant) game in the (7.Qd2 c5 8.dxc5) continuation.

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.e5 Nfd7 7.Bc4) Most recently highligted in Tiger Hillarp's book on the Modern (The Modern Tiger, Quality Chess, 2014) is omitted.

Byrne: (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5)

Here the author goes for (4...Bg7) and then h6+g5 setups. If 5.f4 preventing such setups he has a another setup in store; which is a fairly straightforward one.

Be3 systems: (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3)

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6) is the move covered.

(5.h3) is given critical move status. (5.Nf3) is covered in a couple of games. (5.f4) (along with alternative fifth moves) are not present (except 5.Qd2 where the author shows one move specific idea for white).

After (5.h3 0-0 6.g4) A positionally risky continuation is recommended.

In all kinds of Nc6+e5 lines e.g. (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6 5.h3 Bg7 6.Nf3 0-0 7.a4 Nc6 8.Qd2 e5) White captures on e5 immediately and that's it.

Classical: (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0)

6...Bg4 followed by Nc6+e5 is the selected line.

Fianchetto: (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.g3 Bg7 5.Bg2 0-0 6.Nge2)

(6...e5) Is recommended.

Three more chapters: "other lines", "third move alternatives" and "second move alternatives"

Are also in the book. Many different lines covered here of course.


Have a nice day.

  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #32 - 07/19/16 at 15:53:24
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New in Chess are advertising this with sample pages on Be3 systems.

https://www.newinchess.com/Shop/Images/Pdfs/7604.


  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #31 - 06/15/16 at 18:13:09
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MartinC wrote on 06/15/16 at 08:21:27:
The bump?


  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #30 - 06/15/16 at 08:21:27
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The bump? A traditional way (on such forums) to raise the profile a request that has dropped back due to its age.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #29 - 06/14/16 at 18:44:27
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Hi Paddy

can you please "decode" ?

thanks, lg
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #28 - 06/14/16 at 14:50:43
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Paddy wrote on 06/04/16 at 17:54:00:
This book has now been published, in various formats.

Opinions anyone?


Bump!
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #27 - 06/04/16 at 17:54:00
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This book has now been published, in various formats.

Opinions anyone?
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #26 - 05/28/16 at 10:59:12
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 05/28/16 at 08:25:05:
Not that I can dispute the play of a Super GM, but I think Nbd7 fits better with a c5 plan

Maybe you should.



Wink
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #25 - 05/28/16 at 08:27:08
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RdC wrote on 05/27/16 at 18:32:04:
wouldn't recommend the Pirc or Modern to anyone unless they had a convincing line against it.


I have 3  Grin
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #24 - 05/28/16 at 08:25:05
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Not that I can dispute the play of a Super GM, but I think Nbd7 fits better with a c5 plan
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #23 - 05/27/16 at 19:30:15
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Good evening.

Here is the Harikrishna game as a PGN:


Michael Ayton wrote on 05/27/16 at 14:27:49:
Just off the top of my head I'm tempted to be sceptical about Black's seventh move! With a4/a6 in I always thought Black should be putting the Knight on c6. (Something which Nigel Davies likes doing in lots of Pirc-Modern positions, as I recall ...)

(7...Nc6) looks more normal to me as well. Every time Nc6 can not be met by a favourable d5 push it tends to be a very reasonable way of setting up as black.

Still the more I look at the position the more reasonable (7...Nbd7) seems to me. How does one really play as white to show the deficiences of black's setup? Harikrishnas way (with 8.h3 and dxe5 against e5 by black) is certainly one of the reasonable tries as white often gets some kind of very minor pull in positions with this structure. Still (9...Nxe5) looks like an obvious improvement, when after (10.Nxe5 dxe5) the exchange of an extra pair of pieces along with the immediate issue of a threatened queen swap makes me think white should have some problems getting meaningful pressure. Not that fun to play black though Tongue.

alyechin wrote on 05/27/16 at 15:56:24:
In my opinion the Pirc is an opening to beat weaker players, especially on club level, because many club players have antitodes against the sicilian, but they have no idea against the Pirc.

The Pirc can often be played in way which draws in the opponent into a strategic fight and creates fairly interesting positions. This is the way I personally think the Pirc is best used and of course you can beat a wide array of players playing like this.

One can often also play in a way where you try to hit back at white fairly forcefully. This this tends to work best when white has made one or two imprecisions though.

Also there tends to be setups where you manage to get your pieces out reasonably as black yet with some kind of minor positional disadvantage; which you then try to slowly diminish.

AJZ wrote on 05/27/16 at 16:44:59:
There is a sample with a part of the Austrian attack and the index of lines here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pirc-Move-Nigel-Davies/dp/1781943206/ref=pd_ybh_a_7?ie=....

Must say I'm a bit disappointed to see (6...Na6) and (8...Bg4) and what looks like nothing else against (6.Bd3).

AJZ wrote on 05/27/16 at 16:44:59:
2nd & 3rd moves alternatives are also included.

Many pluses for this though Smiley.

Have a nice day.

Edit: Clarified a part of the text where I had written a chess move badly.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #22 - 05/27/16 at 18:32:04
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alyechin wrote on 05/27/16 at 15:56:24:
but they have no idea against the Pirc.


The 150 Attack, as played by Harikrishna, is pretty simple and well known, in the UK at least. I wouldn't recommend the Pirc or Modern to anyone unless they had a convincing line against it.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #21 - 05/27/16 at 17:26:10
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It's probably pertinent to note that because a move happens to appear in an Everyman book churned out by a fairly low-rated GM (2400 or something) does not make it necessarily 'right'.
That's not to disparage the writer overly, just to note the way of things.
But yes, ...Nc6 would look to 'fit', in my limited reckoning of such positions.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #20 - 05/27/16 at 17:06:47
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AJZ wrote on 05/27/16 at 16:44:59:
Michael Ayton & Bibs:
You are right - in the excerpt Davis mentions Olsson-Davies when the knight is on c6 and e5 is comming. He thinks that White has nothing (page 103).


For that matter, in the particular position of Harikrishna-Mamedyarov, 7...Nc6 was given as leading to equality in ECO (2002).
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #19 - 05/27/16 at 16:50:26
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alyechin wrote on 05/27/16 at 15:56:24:
In my opinion the Pirc is an opening to beat weaker players, especially on club level, because many club players have antitodes against the sicilian, but they have no idea against the Pirc.


Weaker opponent or not, Pirc is so rich strategically that can cost a full point both.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #18 - 05/27/16 at 16:44:59
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Michael Ayton & Bibs:
You are right - in the excerpt Davis mentions Olsson-Davies when the knight is on c6 and e5 is comming. He thinks that White has nothing (page 103).

There is a sample with a part of the Austrian attack and the index of lines here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pirc-Move-Nigel-Davies/dp/1781943206/ref=pd_ybh_a_7?ie=...
2nd & 3rd moves alternatives are also included.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #17 - 05/27/16 at 15:56:24
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In my opinion the Pirc is an opening to beat weaker players, especially on club level, because many club players have antitodes against the sicilian, but they have no idea against the Pirc.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #16 - 05/27/16 at 14:44:52
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I do tend to agree there.
To explain why to people unfamiliar.
The ...a6/a4 exchange can be seen to benefit black in the sense that the c6 knight is safer. Why? No Bb5, ever.
Plus the b4 square is opened up as a possible.
And the knight is often happy on c6 anyway in the classical. A regular square for it.
This was an absolute Pirc car crash from SM. Ugh.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #15 - 05/27/16 at 14:27:49
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Just off the top of my head I'm tempted to be sceptical about Black's seventh move! With a4/a6 in I always thought Black should be putting the Knight on c6. (Something which Nigel Davies likes doing in lots of Pirc-Modern positions, as I recall ...)
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #14 - 05/27/16 at 14:14:58
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Just finished, ouch:

Harikrishna v Mamedyarov

1 e4 d6
2 d4 Nf6
3 Nc3 g6
4 Be3 a6
5 a4 Bg7
6 Nf3 O-O
7 Qd2 Nbd7
8 h3 e5
9 dxe5 dxe5
10 Bc4 b6
11 O-O Bb7
12 Rfd1 Qe7
13 Nd5 Nxd5
14 Bxd5 Bxd5
15 Qxd5 Nf6
16 Qc4 Rfe8
17 c3 a5
18 Rd3 Qe6
19 Qxc7 Nxe4
20 Rad1 Bf6
21 Nd2 Nxd2
22 R1xd2 e4
23 Rd6 Be5
24 Rxe6 Bxc7
25 Rc6 Rec8
26 Kf1 Bd8
27 Rcd6 Rab8
28 Rd7 Bf6
29 Bf4 Ra8
30 Rb7 Rc6
31 Rdd7 Rd8
32 Rxd8+ Bxd8
33 Rb8
1-0
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #13 - 05/19/16 at 15:08:18
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@ Confused_by_Theory

A quick look at 4 Be3 a6 5 f4 Bg7 suggests to me this might well be OK for Black too!


@ TN

My apologies -- when I wrote my last post I'd completely forgotten my own notes! Your 7 g4! still looks to me a refutation of 5 h3 Nbd7, but I believe Black should play 5 ...Bg7 after all, and meet 6 g4 with 6 ...h5!? 7 g5 Nfd7 (8 Bg2 c5). On 6 f4, I believe 6 ...0-0 7 Nf3 (7 Qf3!? e5) Nc6!? is the way to go, e.g. 8 Qd2 e5, or 8 e5 Nh5 9 Kf2 f6. Obviously it's far too early to talk in terms of clear equality, but at least it's beginning to look like potential counterplay!
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #12 - 05/19/16 at 10:39:47
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 05/18/16 at 20:06:54:
After something like 6 Bd3 0-0 7 Ne2 (if White goes f5 Black's e-file counterplay comes too quickly surely) f5! White might have a small edge, but can he really make any progress when his a-pawn is sicklier than Black's and Black can pile up on e4?

Having looked at the position after 10.bxc3 a bit deeper I can say that you are right that it should be problematic to make progress.
The light squares are a problem for white after black plays Be6 (plan Bd5, Qf7). Also white's pieces are quite defensively placed and his extra pawn is hard to make use of.

Michael Ayton wrote on 05/18/16 at 20:06:54:
Have you any thoughts, I wonder, on Black's best move orders in the 4 ...a6 5 Qd2 lines (with 7 g4 or 7 0-0-0 as above)? Is Moskalenko's book useful here?

Don't play 4...a6 much and can't pretend to understand the best ways of handling the positions. Already at black's sixth I am confused about the ramifications of playing each of (6...Nbd7, 6...Bg7 and 6...Bb7) and have not bothered to find out really.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5
5...Bg7 6.Bh6 is pretty much known to be bad.
5...Nbd7 6.Nf3 and the knight on d7 is ugly.
6.f3
6.Bd3 I don't see how could possibly be better compared to 6.f3, though maybe it has some deep point/-s that I don't understand.
6.0-0-0 allows 6...b4 with instant counterplay.
6...Nbd7 (Most popular)
6...Bg7!?
6...Bb7!?

About Moskalenkos book. Some lines are given on what he calls the 4...a6 Sämisch and (very) maybe one can have some limited use of the book when studying this variation.

  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #11 - 05/18/16 at 20:06:54
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@ Confused_by_Theory

I haven't looked at 4 Be3 a6 5 f4 Bg7 yet, but after 5 ...b5 my feeling is that the line you give holds few terrors for Black. After something like 6 Bd3 0-0 7 Ne2 (if White goes f5 Black's e-file counterplay comes too quickly surely) f5! White might have a small edge, but can he really make any progress when his a-pawn is sicklier than Black's and Black can pile up on e4?

Have you any thoughts, I wonder, on Black's best move orders in the 4 ...a6 5 Qd2 lines (with 7 g4 or 7 0-0-0 as above)? Is Moskalenko's book useful here?


@ TN

I'm not sure about the blanket 'no equality in the Pirc' bit, but so far, after 4 ...a6 5 h3 Nbd7 (I always thought 5 ...Bg7 here was just bad because of 6 g4!) 6 Nf3 e5 your 7 g4! looks to me a good catch (unfortunately)! To be honest, I always thought 6 ...e5 looked a bit funny. Could there be mileage in 6 ...e6, or even 6 ...c6, I wonder?

  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #10 - 05/18/16 at 16:17:52
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1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6 5.h3 Bg7 6.g4!? 0-0 7.Nge2 Nfd7 8.Bg2 seems a pretty decent shot at an edge. I'm not so sure about 5...Nbd7, I guess 6.Nf3 e5 7.g4 could be considered an improved version of a Shirov Gambit of the Philidor.

In short - no equality in the Pirc, but certainly complex, interesting play!
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #9 - 05/17/16 at 12:37:17
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 05/17/16 at 10:54:36:
I've often wondered about 5 f4. I guess Black's choice is to go into a Modern with 5 ...Bg7 or else try 5 ...b5!? (which engines seem to favour). Any thoughts on this? The position seems quite weird and unlike many other Pircs ...
Some thoughts:

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Be3 a6 5.f4 b5)
(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Be3 a6 5.f4 Ng4)
(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Be3 a6 5.f4 Bg7)

Are the reasonable continuations imo.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Be3 a6 5.f4 b5 6.e5
looks quite strong. For example:
6...b4
6...Ng4 7.Bd2! (not 7.Bc1 mentioned in Chess Developments the Pirc p.160) and black's position does not make sense.
7.Qf3 c6
7...Ra7 8.Nd1 Ng4 9.e6! looks horrible for black.
8.exf6!? bxc3 9.fxe7 Qxe7 10.bxc3
And I don't think this is a position where black has sufficient compensation for the pawn.


1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Be3 a6 5.f4 Ng4
Is reasonable but releases the pressure on the e4 pawn.
6.Bc1 Bg7 7.Nf3 b5!?
7...0-0 8.Bd3 gives white good coordination.
8.h3
And black would like to play the following as others don't really look appealing.
8...Nf6
Alas.
9.e5! Nfd7
9...Ng4 10.Bd3 is also good for white.
10.h4!
Is a standard idea that seems to work well.

So for me 5...Bg7 seems best when a plausible line is:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Be3 a6 5.f4 Bg7 6.Nf3 b5!?
With a complex position.
6...0-0 transposes to a not so good looking sideline of the 6.Be3 Austrian btw.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #8 - 05/17/16 at 10:54:36
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"the Najdorf of the future", I love it! A Najdorf with no Antis! ...

If you've any analysis after 5 h3 Bg7 you can share without giving away secrets I'd be v. interested! But 5 h3 Nbd7!?, discussed on here not long ago, is I hope still unrefuted ...

I've often wondered about 5 f4. I guess Black's choice is to go into a Modern with 5 ...Bg7 or else try 5 ...b5!? (which engines seem to favour). Any thoughts on this? The position seems quite weird and unlike many other Pircs ...
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #7 - 05/17/16 at 06:20:11
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4.Be3 a6 sometimes feels to me like the Najdorf of the future - a potentially strong positional idea that may need some deep analysis in very sharp critical lines to fully justify it. Recently, I had some untested ideas against the critical 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 fueled by a crazy piece sacrifice that turned up in some engine analysis. This line was recommended in Kornev's repertoire, so it will probably increase in popularity, but 5.f4 is also very important, which is even rarer. I haven't come to a clear conclusion on 5.f4 yet, but my main takeaway was that these lines can be very sharp and deserve more attention!
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #6 - 05/16/16 at 20:29:04
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My first thought on seeing the excerpt was that this looks as though it could be a typical Davies opening book. I think his books can be inspiring, but also rather broad-brush and omissive sometimes ...

It looks to me like this is the case here with his treatment of the 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 f3 Nbd7 line. As well as being quite sharp and critical this is also surely quite strategically rich, and it seems a pity that Davies passes over White's attacking ideas with only one glanced-at example (7 g4 Nb6 8 Nd1!? h5 9 g5 Nfd7, Hansen-Hillarp Persson). I presume 8 g5 here (iso 8 Nd1) 'should' be met by 8 ...Nfd7 (though 8 ...Nh5 has been played), 8 h4 by 8 ...h5, and 8 0-0-0 by 8 ...Bb7 (though 8 ...c6!? has been seen), but coverage would have been welcome.

And what about 7 0-0-0? You could think 7 ...Bb7 might be the main line since now 8 g4 Nb6 transposes to 7 g4 Nb6 8 0-0-0 Bb7, but then it's logical to think 7 ...Nb6 could be better since now 8 g4 allows Hillarp Persson's 'typical manoeuvre' of 8 ..h5 9 g5 Nfd7 semi-sealing the kingside. (But then 8 h4!? might be stronger than it would be after 7 ...Bb7.) Has theory here coalesced at all or is it still in flux? Does Moskalenko (whose book I haven't got) cover this?

And what about (desirable/inferior) transpositions to the Modern via ...Bg7, as is quite common after the unmentioned 7 h4 (though 7 ...Nb6 [8 g4 h5!] might still be best?) but rarer after 8 g4? Guidance from the grandmaster would have been appreciated!


  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #5 - 05/14/16 at 05:25:36
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Bibs wrote on 05/14/16 at 01:41:22:
Perhaps this is meant for note-taking?!


A useful feature Smiley

My first copy of Pirc Alert?! is riddled with my notes. In another book without such space, I had to resort to stapling my notes in on seperate pieces of paper.

I'm also dismantling some of my opening books, just taking the bits I want, stapling in my own notes, and re-constructing my own Frankenstein's monster of a repertoire tome  Shocked



 
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #4 - 05/14/16 at 01:41:22
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Yes, does seem odd. Poor.
Perhaps this is meant for note-taking?!

Previously Lakdawala filled space with random guff. Perhaps the esteemed Everyman editors took on the volume of very critical feedback and deemed this approach to be progress.

And just filled space with ... space.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #3 - 05/13/16 at 21:26:51
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AJZ wrote on 05/12/16 at 12:19:21:


Hm.
Checking the excerpt shows that everyman used every possibility to fill luft into the layout. So you may get two pages content for the price of three...
See pages 107, 108, 110, 111, 114
Is it really printed this way?
Wa there no editor?!
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #2 - 05/12/16 at 19:24:10
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Hi.

AJZ wrote on 05/12/16 at 12:19:21:

Many thanks for the information.

AJZ wrote on 05/12/16 at 12:19:21:
Lines covered include:
5...0-0 (with immediate c5 or after Na6) against Austrian Attack - Good
...a6 when White plays Be3 - Excellent
e7-e5 lines against Classical and Fianchetto lines - Interesting (though I don't know what concrete lines this refers to)

Would be my subjective comments on the line choices.

AJZ wrote on 05/12/16 at 12:19:21:
Key Author's notes:
"Please note that despite my recommendations against the major lines this is not a ‘repertoire
book’ as such
. My goal, in keeping with that of the series, is to instil in the reader an understanding of the Pirc so that they can start their journey with this opening."

Alright. It would be interesting to see if this line is covered (didn't see in the excerpt anyway):
(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6 5.f4)

AJZ wrote on 05/12/16 at 12:19:21:
I bet it will be a very good book but not a great one from theoretical point of view, I'm still hoping for from QC or Everyman "Repertoires" series. But who dares to write detailed and engine-checked Pirc repertoire book?

One can always wish for a high class Pirc repertoire book, but it would be a big project and demanding of much time and labor to do well.


Will buy the book as soon as it comes out of course.
Have a nice day.
  
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JEH
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #1 - 05/12/16 at 15:11:47
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AJZ wrote on 05/12/16 at 12:19:21:
follow a logical strategic pattern which will make them easier to replicate whilst helping to build the reader’s understanding


A much nicer way to play than trying to remember a sequence of 5 engine checked only moves not to be dead  Wink

"This may sound very complicated, but in fact I’m giving you a very simple way to handle
these Be3 lines. You just meet White’s Be3 with ...a6 and otherwise get on with your development."

  Smiley Smiley Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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AJZ
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The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
05/12/16 at 12:19:21
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The book will be out at the end of May in Europe: https://www.everymanchess.com/the-pirc-move-by-move

There is an excerpt to check:
https://www.everymanchess.com/downloadable/download/sample/sample_id/122/

Lines covered include:
5...0-0 (with immediate c5 or after Na6) against Austrian Attack
...a6 when White plays Be3
e7-e5 lines against Classical and Fianchetto lines

Key Author's notes:
"Please note that despite my recommendations against the major lines this is not a ‘repertoire
book’ as such
. My goal, in keeping with that of the series, is to instil in the reader an understanding of the Pirc so that they can start their journey with this opening."

"Where possible I’ve also made use of my own games and/or lines that I’ve adopted myself,
partly because I believe in them and partly because my personal experience and insights may be of value to the reader. Once again I make no guarantee that they will be the primary picks of the engines, but they follow a logical strategic pattern which will make them easier to replicate whilst helping to build the reader’s understanding."

I bet it will be a very good book but not a great one from theoretical point of view, I'm still hoping for from QC or Everyman "Repertoires" series. But who dares to write detailed and engine-checked Pirc repertoire book?
  
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