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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 71019 times)
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #37 - 12/15/16 at 10:23:01
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/14/16 at 16:42:11:
Hi.

Been contemplating how to play this as black:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2


Once you play ..c6, you are committed to a particular structure and ideas. There are alternatives to 4. .. c6, some of which can transpose.

Personally I think the "Modern" move order with 1. e4 d6 2. d4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. any a6 is a better try, but 3. Nc3 isn't forced, 3. c4 or 4. f4 could be played.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #36 - 12/15/16 at 09:41:53
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/14/16 at 16:42:11:
used as repertoire staple.


I think the way to play the Pirc (and Modern) is to have various options ready.

Duck and dive, bob and weave, twist and turn like a twisty turny thing Cheesy

So cut out all of these lines from your repertoire books and staple them together! [I have actually done this with some old falling apart books  Shocked]
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #35 - 12/14/16 at 16:42:11
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Hi.

Been contemplating how to play this as black:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2

Pirc Litterature does not give an abundance of ideas. This is what is covered basically:

The Ultimate Pirc (1998): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5 and brief coverage of 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7
Pirc Alert (2001): 4.Bg5 Bg7 Only.
Vidki's The Pirc Defence (2002): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5
the Pirc in Black and White (2007): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5
Chess developents the Pirc (2012): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5
The Perfect Pirc-Modern (2013): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5.
The Pirc move by move (2016): 4.Bg5 Bg7 Only.

Some also cover 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Bg7 6.Bh6 (through various move orders).
And of course there is GM Shaw - Playing 1.e4 (2016) who does cover 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.e5 substantially and well (though he does not cover alternate black fifth moves, 5...Bg7 excluded).

Where does that leave us then?
Basically there seems to be a significant leaning towards 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5, only 6.e5 has not been taken seriously thus far. Of the above books Vigus does best (anyone surprised? Smiley) actually covering 6.e5; although Shaw's suggestion probably just improves over the line Vigus gives.

So we have:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 (The line in Pirc litterature and one which Shaw recently tried to show deficiencies in after 6.e5)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Bg7 (Given in various Pirc litterature as an alternative to the 5...b5 line)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 (Mentioned once in Pirc litterature)
And that is it.

Knowing not many lines are actually covered in Pirc litterature a natural question is to ask if there are alternatives to the above lines, which have not received coverage thus far. From what I can see the following moves have been played (popularity order):

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 h6 (Played but also previously mentioned in the thread - #30)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qb6

Of course chess is about thinking and it would disappointing to miss some nice move for lack of this. So is it possible to think of more moves? Somewhat not entirely out of place looks to me the following:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qc7
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Na6
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 a5
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 e6

Listed above are certainly a handful of black fifth moves, though is any of them attractive enough to form a repertoire around? I don't know but I can say that of all the moves listed (including 5...b5 and 5...Bg7 played hundreds of times) there is only one which I think is good Edit: has potential enough to be used as repertoire staple.

Some day I will elaborate and post some analysis. Until then.

Have a nice day.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #34 - 11/28/16 at 22:35:02
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Good evening.

The other day I came here to check a few lines and found that the PGN in #33 was to large to download Cry. Later I remembered the workaround Smiley.

It seems fair for everyone that I attach the PGN-file to a post in order to make downloading possible and so was gonna do that here and now. Only there does not seem to be an option for that (It is usually a sort of small menu labeled attachments, found under all the smilies, yet it does not appear for some reason). Anyone know why?



In terms of chess I have actually looked at a few lines from the pgn in reply #33 a bit deeper since posting that. Especially against the rare (don't know if it's even been played) but challenging looking:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.f4 Bg7 6.Qd2 0-0 7.Bh4
I think there is a nice move that I missed in the reply #33 PGN.

Being sort of mildly optimistic of both black's chances to create play and his ability to get OK positions after
4.Bg5 c6 5.f4
now that I've looked a bit at some lines and having been made aware of the nice looking idea
4.Bg5 c6 5.f4 Bg7 6.Qd2 0-0 7.Bd3 Na6 8.Nf3 c5 9.d5 c4!?
, making black's life if not easy then at least reasonably fun, I'm thinking maybe it is time to find something nice against
4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2
as well. Having that along with maybe some lines against
4.Bg5 c6 5.Nf3
Would actually constitute some sort of a 4.Bg5 c6 repertoire. Possibly this is nice to be able to play practically as Byrne players would probably be more used to the 4.Bg5 Bg7 lines.

Anyway If I see something against 5.Qd2 I may make a similar post to the one on 5.f4.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #33 - 09/03/16 at 22:44:53
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #32 - 09/03/16 at 22:44:19
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Hello.

About a month ago I made a post about 4.Bg5 c6 5.f4, more specific about the alternatives to 5...Bg7 6.Qd2 0-0 7.Bd3 Na6 8.Nf3.

Had been meaning to post some kind of analysis but forgot for some time. Today I made a coherent analysis file though and hopefully someone will find it useful. Since the PGN limbo danced near the 11000 maximum characters allowed (hitting the bar at first) I put it in a separate post.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #31 - 07/31/16 at 04:52:54
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Hello.

MNb wrote on 07/31/16 at 01:11:44:
As a lifelong fan of the Argentinean Attack indeed 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 (4.Bg5) Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 c5 9.d5 Nbd7 10.Nf3 c4! bothers me. The game Jurcic-Rasik, SVK 2013 seems to be important. White might improve and foster an endgame edge, but it's not much and seems to require GM skills to wring something out of it.

I assume this is the game:


Direct play by white. Unless black fails in coordinating quite badly the best white can hope for should indeed be some kind of mild pressure though.

I am sort of thinking about this 7...Qa5 with 10...c4 line (which, let's mention, is playable via 4.Bg5 move order as well) that it seems like a line where played games (i.e. practice) should actually be quite useful to study. Developments and new games in this line are thus quite eagerly awaited by me.



I should say also that I don't get the trying to hold a draw reasoning about this line. Theoretically black indeed playing to hold a draw but practically I don't see why the line should be seen as an attempt to just hold a draw. Black seems to have reasonable chances to improve his position to me and let's not forget that white has advanced somewhat (and allowed an unusual asymmetrical pawn structure). It should be some kind of game after all. Smiley (optimist).

MNb wrote on 07/31/16 at 01:11:44:
Also I wonder what White has after 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 h6. White's highest score is with 6.Be3 but I find it hard to believe it's much after the stale Ng4 7.Bf4 e5. Of course this will turn off quite a few defenders of Black's case as well.

I reckon 6.Bh4 followed by f2-f4 (immediately or soon after) is what I'd play. Black will get to play b7-b5 though and then it becomes a setup versus setup fight (to put it simple).

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #30 - 07/31/16 at 01:11:44
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You fans of the Pirc might be happy to learn that from White's point of view it's not exactly a bed of roses either; indeed things are confusing.
As a lifelong fan of the Argentinean Attack indeed 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 (4.Bg5) Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 c5 9.d5 Nbd7 10.Nf3 c4! bothers me. The game Jurcic-Rasik, SVK 2013 seems to be important. White might improve and foster an endgame edge, but it's not much and seems to require GM skills to wring something out of it.
So I wonder how good 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 (O-O 6.O-O-O duh - my next move is 7.f3 and I'll have one of my all time favourites - see DW Pirc chapter 1) 6.O-O-O b5 7.Bd3 is. In this line the bishop might be better on g5 than on e3.
Also I wonder what White has after 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 h6. White's highest score is with 6.Be3 but I find it hard to believe it's much after the stale Ng4 7.Bf4 e5. Of course this will turn off quite a few defenders of Black's case as well.
What I do not wonder is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Bg5. That's nothing for White. So I stick to an old recommendation: if Black also plays the KID then postponing ...Nf6 a bit is more precise than the pure Pirc.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #29 - 07/29/16 at 05:15:22
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 07/21/16 at 13:28:35:
Thanks CBT! I think 9 ...c4 is still holding up. Maybe White's best after 10 Bc4 Nc5 is something like 11 Bf6 (11 Bd3 Qb6 [11 ...b5!? is also interesting?] 12 Bf6(!) Bf6 13 0-0-0 Bg4 looks like plenty of comp.) Bf6!? (11 ...ef!? also looks playable!) 12 e5 Bg7 13 0-0-0 a6 14 Be2 (14 Rfe1 b5 15 Bf1 Bg4) b5 15 Qe3, but then Black has 15 Qc7, intending Rb8 and b4 with an ongoing attack.

Here is a PGN with the above moves:

A few moves were inserted to show that there is another move order that can be used as well.

Michael Ayton wrote on 07/21/16 at 13:28:35:
Unless this is badly wrong or White can advantageously diverge earlier, maybe this even calls 5 f4 into question!?

Being a bit more zoomed in I would say 5.f4 with 6.Qd2, 7.Bd3 and 8.Nf3 is the potentially questioned line.

For the broader question of white's chances after 5.f4 should this Na6+c5 line work well. It can be noted that white can diverge relatively easily indeed. Anywhere between move 6-8 basically (he could of course consider not going 5.f4 as well but how to do this best is another discussion).

Move 6-8 is not such a thrilling period in the white game though since he will need to balance some things. Notably developing and defending his big centre while not allowing black to sort of catch up positionally while he is doing this (i.e. by allowing a black e7-e5 at the right moment or just letting black set up harmoniously somehow). So if you start sifting the various white moves between move 6-8 I would imagine most are harmless (I've checked a little as well witohut finding anything obviously super appealing for white).

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #28 - 07/21/16 at 13:28:35
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Thanks CBT! I think 9 ...c4 is still holding up. Maybe White's best after 10 Bc4 Nc5 is something like 11 Bf6 (11 Bd3 Qb6 [11 ...b5!? is also interesting?] 12 Bf6(!) Bf6 13 0-0-0 Bg4 looks like plenty of comp.) Bf6!? (11 ...ef!? also looks playable!) 12 e5 Bg7 13 0-0-0 a6 14 Be2 (14 Rfe1 b5 15 Bf1 Bg4) b5 15 Qe3, but then Black has 15 Qc7, intending Rb8 and b4 with an ongoing attack.

Unless this is badly wrong or White can advantageously diverge earlier, maybe this even calls 5 f4 into question!?
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #27 - 07/06/16 at 05:33:16
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/27/16 at 21:46:08:
I'm hoping of course that Pirc hounds Confused_by_Theory and DenVerdsligeRejsende will chip in at some point! Can't blame anyone, of course, if they want to keep their own choices under wraps! -- but I'm a bit disappointed no one's commented on my magnificent 9 ...c4!? TN (see Reply #5)  Cheesy.

This 9...c4 looks like a very nice pawn sacrifice. Would take black any day Cool.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #26 - 06/30/16 at 18:17:58
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@ Stigma:
Thanks again. This is very interesting, particularly the bit about that line being the critical Pirc chapter line. Would love to know more about Shaw's views on 'B1' and 'B2' at some point, within the appropriate ethical constraints of course!
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #25 - 06/30/16 at 17:24:22
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@Michael Ayton:
I meant that Shaw seems to consider that 11...Qc5 line the critical line of the entire Pirc chapter. I used to believe Black should avoid it, but now I'm pleasantly surprised that he finds it so challenging for White. Although, as you hinted at, Black may not have much winning chances there.

The sceptical feelings about ...h6 lines are my own, and they don't carry any weight - I have forgotten whatever theory I once knew there, and haven't looked at Shaw's lines against it yet. Wouldn't mind at all if you can make them work for Black of course.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #24 - 06/30/16 at 13:41:06
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Quote:
Have you had a chance to look at the new Shaw book? I bought it on Forward Chess just now to see his recommendations against the Pirc and the Scandinavian. He (and thus much of the QC team) seem to both agree with many of the observations in this thread (on 4...c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.e5! and the importance of transpositions to 4.Be3 lines, for instance) and at the same time have a lot of respect for the Pirc!


Thanks for this. No, I haven't seen this book. When you write that '7...Qa5 with 11...Qc5 does indeed seem to be critical', are you meaning that Shaw (and/or you?) are sceptical about 5 Qd2 h6 lines, considering the Be3 transposition to be a better choice for Black?
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #23 - 06/30/16 at 12:31:32
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Michael Ayton wrote on 06/30/16 at 09:38:07:
Yes, I'm tempted now to agree that 4 ...c6 5 Qd2 b5 is unappetising because of 6 e5! I had thought 6 ...h6 was OK, but it does look rather uninspiring. It may be personal taste of course, but that's my feeling too about the '150' line with 7 ...Qa5/11 ...Qc5. I've a memory of us discussing this with James Vigus on the Forum a while back and concluding that Black may be 'playing for two results' ...

Have you had a chance to look at the new Shaw book? I bought it on Forward Chess just now to see his recommendations against the Pirc and the Scandinavian. He (and thus much of the QC team) seem to both agree with many of the observations in this thread (on 4...c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.e5! and the importance of transpositions to 4.Be3 lines, for instance) and at the same time have a lot of respect for the Pirc!

And 7...Qa5 with 11...Qc5 does indeed seem to be critical. Maybe even we Pirc players need to accept that just holding on to a draw with Black is a decent result, especially if White does everything right. Then we can always dabble in even more risky lines (with ...h6 perhaps) against weaker opponents and in absolutely must-win games.
  

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