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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move (Read 25287 times)
MNb
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #39 - 08/18/16 at 15:56:07
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Don't worry too much about spelling. If it's really bad I correct it for you.
Don't worry about my purchasing habits either. In time I'll decide to buy Jones (at first sight that one looks addressing my needs best) or Dearing.
I have one question left. Would playing 9.Kh1 a6 a good idea as well or is a plan with leaving the bishop on c1 more dangerous? Especially 10.a4 Be6 11.f4 ?
Again it would be nice to learn what Move by Move says about 10.Kh1. Light coverage as well?
  

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bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #38 - 08/18/16 at 08:20:08
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Sorry for bad spelling. I meant no point of buying this book for that line and no other Dragon book either but if one insists on a book I would go for first hand Jones or Dearing since Move by Move has light coverage. Note to myself "Learn to read",
« Last Edit: 08/18/16 at 15:57:48 by MNb »  
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MNb
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #37 - 08/17/16 at 03:13:48
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bragesjo wrote on 08/16/16 at 07:29:28:
There is no point of buyning a book for this line only. I would go for Jones or Dearning in this case to since Move by Move has to light coverade.

Thanks.

XChess1971 wrote on 08/16/16 at 12:46:07:
MNb in the Sicilian you have 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c4. Also 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.c4.

I've been pretty sure since more than 20 years that 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 (my choice as I wrote in my previous post) is not an Accelerated Dragon, but a Kalashnikov. I only play 3...g6 if White has played Nc3.
I'd welcome 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c4 e6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nf6 6.Nc3 as Black does excellently after Bb4. 4.Be2 b6 5.O-O Bb7 6.d4 cxd4 7.Nxd4 Qb8 also seems fine.
Tony Rotella recommends 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 g6.
The Kalashnikov-Accelerated Dragon combo is waterproof.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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kylemeister
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #36 - 08/16/16 at 15:47:49
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Surely 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c4 is comfortably answered by 3...e5.
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #35 - 08/16/16 at 12:47:42
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I forgot MNb also you have 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c4. There is 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 as well.
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #34 - 08/16/16 at 12:46:07
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MNb in the Sicilian you have 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c4. Also 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.c4. Unless you play 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 which is a different kind of Accelerated Dragon.

And it is true the thread is taking a different route. But like I posted before about the book. Unfortunately it looks to me that it is not up to date. It doesn't touch the critical lines in the Burnett. And by move by move I myself would expect detailed coverage. I do not know if I am asking too much. Last night I found out that he touches The Yugoslav Attack 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.h4 Nc4 13.Bxc4 Rxc4 14.h5. There are no sub-variations for move 14 and even worse no mention of the critical14.g4!. One key game is Ivanchuk-Schneider.

But on the other side I like the explanations of the 10.Bb3 Nxd4. How the theory on this system is right now? I do not know. But throughout the years I have understood that you need to be faster than your opponent in the attack especially if you exchange pieces. I rather keep most of the pieces for that. I respect GM Jones on the work of the Topalov System, but it feels like if it is some kind of forced pre-ending. Compared to 10.Bb3 Nxd4 black is already on the attack. I love GM Jones solution to the Rabinovich. Time will tell correctness. Carsten Hansen's coverage of the Chinese Dragon looks interesting. But still I would analyze and research up-to-date theory to avoid surprises. Especially after he only mentions 10.Bb3. No other moves.

Also there are correspondence games that show different ideas and tests. Those are not included either. All in all. I would use the book for the ideas and as a reference book.
  
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #33 - 08/16/16 at 08:38:53
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I notice the topic isn't about the book anymore...
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #32 - 08/16/16 at 07:29:28
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Yes the accelerated for white is a bit tricky if one wants to play the same line vs both Dragon and Accelerated. For a while I tried to have a two in one line so I tried g3 vs both in a few tournament games including drawing a 300 elo heigher in a 30 min game in accelerated when I missed the  win in time trouble. But at Internet some player delayed Nf6 and got in a quick f5 and I thought that if this is playable then I tried some other lines. Dragadorf is no problem either, I play Be3 to invite it and after a6 I play Be2 when black has been wasting time so this system is stronger than usuall, white has a a clear edge here. I play Marocy as white since I also enter positional mainlines vs Kalashnikov and Svechnikov, I also play d4 vs hyperaccelarated with the idea of playing Marocy if black allows.  Semi accelerated no problem here either. I dont play Be2 to avoid Svechnikov I play it to not allow black to get what he wants and in my experience club players dont understand the Boleslavsky variation or knows the points of my white Dragon pet line while the are very booked up on Bg5. The point of my Dragon pet line is that d5 is good for white since the e3 Bishop is not hanging so white can grab all material. that would have lost to Qe5 if the pawn had been at f3 and Nxd4 Bxd4 Be6 Kb1 is better for white so Ng4, paradoxy removing a kingside defender, is only move to maintain balance.

But  back to Karpov and a quick repertour. There is no point of buyning a book for this line only. I would go for Jones or Dearning in this case to since Move by Move has to light coverade. The idea for black is after Nc6 Nb3 a6 white has a choiche, I give a few lines from my memory.

A To prevent b5 by playing a4. After a4 black plays Be6 with the tactical point to f4 can be met by b5 becouse of Qb6+. Many players plays Kh1 first when black plays Rc8 when f4 is met by Na5.

B White allows b5 by playing Re1 (possible best line). Black has b5 and after something like Bf1 Bb7 Nd5 Nd7 etc with play for both sides.

C White allows b5 by playing f4. Black plays b5 after and Bf3 black can play both the tricky b4 when Na4 is forced or the mainline Bb7.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #31 - 08/14/16 at 17:03:15
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It's highly unlikely that I'll ever play the Dragon Proper. More than twenty years ago I have played the Accelerated Dragon (and even the Semi-Accelerated Dragon) for a while. Back then I already realized this avoids

(1) the Yugoslav Attack with 9.O-O-O
(2) the Yugoslav Attack with 9.g4.

That was in the time IM Silman advocated his gambit against the Maroczy Bind, eg Anka-Silman, Budapest 1994. And I realized some more.
When I gave up the French two years ago I bought Tony Rotella's excellent Killer Sicilian and worked my way through it. I liked it very much and quickly spotted a small but important error. Tony was kind and honest enough to admit it when I pointed it out to him.

"The problem is that normal moves like ...... 3...g6 ... are met by 4.d4, when we're out of our repertoire."
Nope. 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 g6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 not only avoids (1) and (2), but also

(3) the Maroczy Bind

and hence is an excellent complement to the Kalashnikov.
Of course I had to redo all my outdated work again. To my joy I could expand the list a bit more. Black can even avoid

(4) your Pseudo-Yugoslav with Be2 iso f3 as Black will play ...d5 in one go.
(5) the topical Yugoslav variation with 9.Bc4, 10.O-O-O, 11.Bb3 and 12.Kb1.

So I get 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 g6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 O-O 8.Bb3 d6 9.f3 Bd7. No doubt you will immediately recognize this as an irregular version of the Yugoslav Attack. There is a lot to say about this. Things are tricky from here due to many subtle transpositions. Any conclusion depends on two factors. The first is the evaluation of main systems like the Soltis and the Chinese Dragon; the second is the evaluation of independent options like the Forintos Variation (10...Nxd4 11.Bxd4 b5) which is quite similar to the Topalov Variation. White also has a few independent options available. While I don't underestimate the work involved (I have been doing quite some over the years) it's still less than the Dragon Proper. Plus there is the chance to bewilder White with smart move orders.

White can deviate with 9.h3 which becomes the Sozin-Short Variation (6.Bc4 against the Dragon).
Further back White has 7.Be2 O-O 8.Nb3 (8.Qd2 d5!) d6 9.O-O and about twenty years ago I won a nice corr. game with Be6 10.f4 Rc8 and the exchange sac on c3.
If anything then 7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.e5 Ng8 is good for Black.
Also I noticed that 6.Nde2 Nf6 7.g3 O-O 8.Bg2 Rb8 9.a4 a6 10.O-O b5 is an improved version (for Black)of the Counterfianchetto 6.g3 against the Dragon Proper.
So 6.Nb3 Nf6 7.Be2 O-O 8.O-O d6 9.Bg5, 9.Re1 and 9.Kh1 remain.

None of this is critical for my choice; I already have returned to the Kalashnikov. It just would be nice to complete my repertoire against 1.e4. As buying a 500 pages book on the Dragon Proper for 10 pages on these three Classical lines is not exactly economical I would appreciate it if some Dragon expert gave me a few hints (9.Bg5 a6 it will be). Books on the Accelerated Dragon probably are not very useful either, because they prefer to avoid the Dragon Proper, while I want to steer at it on my conditions.

Of course it would be fantastic if someone wrote a book on transposing (or not) from the Accelerated Dragon to the Dragon Proper. I pondered asking Tony Rotella, but he's still recovering from The Killer Sicilian.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #30 - 08/14/16 at 14:22:54
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About Karpov system, all books I read concludes that black is equal in Nc6 Nb3 a6 line.
Move by Move covers it first than i covers the old line Be6 but both lines are only lightly covered.
When I said ail I mean all "modern" books written for black players.

Taylors "Slay the Sicilian" who was written for white advocaded both the Karpov system and Rabinoich attack (called Alekhine attack in the book).
Taylors firsthand recommendation was Alekhine attack attack where hes mainline is completly refuted by Jones in GM Repertour book.
Taylor thougt that white had "Karpovian edge" in Karpov system when some old verison of Fritz called the positon + 0.09.
When putting the position with Stockfish the evalutaion of Karpov system after a6 is 0.00 at ply 32 that indicated the position is dynamical balanced. Blacks has a potential weakness at d5 square and in some lines aslo the e7 pawn but dynamical factors compensates for that.
  
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #29 - 08/14/16 at 07:39:07
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Move by move seemingly refers to the format with lots of text and especially the questions. Really deep/comprehensive theory not to be expected.
(The introduction actually explicitly denies trying to provide this.).
  
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #28 - 08/14/16 at 07:04:46
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I copied this remark from XChess1971: "I picked up Carsten Hansen book. And I feel disappointed. It is more like a book that shows you the plans. But it looks like if it is not up to date. I do not understand why it says "move by move". And it doesn't consider all of the moves. In the Burnett it doesn't touch the critical lines cited here. "

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1438120529/45
  
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #27 - 08/13/16 at 16:53:23
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bragesjo wrote on 08/12/16 at 17:38:40:
About equality in Karpov system its no point discussing is common knowledge that black has equal chanses in mainlines like 8 .. Nc6 9 Nb3. a6.


That's an unhelpful answer. I asked a question, I did not intend to start a discussion. I asked you because I very well know you know a lot more about the Dragon than me. The answer may be common knowledge, I don't know it or I wouldn't have asked. You're not exactly a great guy for helping out an ignorant like me.
For instance you could have offered a couple of relevant and representative games to help me on my way. You preferred not to do so.
Well, I guess this

Quote:
Any questions about any concrete lines?

was not a sincere question then.
...... (insert your favourite abusive term, preferably in Swedish).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #26 - 08/13/16 at 13:19:39
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I can add that the reason switched opening was becouse the Dragon is difficult to keep up to developments and maintain many lines with long forced draws paricullary on short time controls. Instead of openings my chess time is dedicated towards studies of old masters.
Next on my list is tactics and endgames.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian Dragon: Move by Move
Reply #25 - 08/12/16 at 17:38:40
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MNb wrote on 08/12/16 at 15:52:46:
bragesjo wrote on 08/12/16 at 10:38:56:
I got this book today. Any questions about any concrete lines?


I had one here:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1450097237/8#8

I am happy to repeat it:

Which line in the Karpov system (Be2, Bg5) does maintain equality for Black according to you?
What does this book say about it?


About equality in Karpov system its no point discussing is common knowledge that black has equal chanses in mainlines like 8 .. Nc6 9 Nb3. a6, Unless something major has happended since I deserted the Dragon and it was for other reasons. True I lost team match once in Karpov system but my opponnet had about 500 more in Swedisch rating at that time (some 16 years ago) but I had nothing to do with the opening, He simply handled the middlegame better and won from an equal position, computer was even -0.1 evaluation at some point. He would have won regardless of opening since he played in Swedish Championships 2nd heigest class while I only played in small local tournaments and at Internet.

I think that openings in generall is about getting a comfortable position not to get a theoretical position one does not like or are unfamilar with. I play Be2 yugoslav like vs Dragon and Be2 systems vs some other sicilians and g3 position vs some. It gives no theoretical advantage but I gets a active practical position I like and understands and as a bonus I can play Be2 vs Classical with no fear of transposing to Dragon. Karpov was in my eyes a very practical player and I would say the Karpov system is about the same thing, getting a comfortable position easy to maintain.
« Last Edit: 08/13/16 at 13:08:36 by bragesjo »  
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