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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Making the Exchange QGD work for Black (Read 18832 times)
RdC
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #36 - 08/20/18 at 23:40:15
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FreeRepublic wrote on 08/20/18 at 22:08:50:
I've been looking at the QGD exchange variation(s). There are many variations and sidelines.



The problem is that most of them are too easy to play for White. Whilst I might like to play the sequence 1. d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Nbd7 with the aim of playing the Cambridge Springs, the reply 5. cxd5 is discouraging.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #35 - 08/20/18 at 22:08:50
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I've been looking at the QGD exchange variation(s). There are many variations and sidelines.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Qc2 Nbd7 9. Nf3 Re8 10. O-O is the main line.

GM Max Illingworth of Chess Publishing provides very good analysis of the main line with 10...Nf8. I look forward to seeing the former main line 11Rb1 in my games, but remain less confident after the newer main line move 11h3! Black's maneuvers with his queen knight, ...Nd7-f8 sometimes to g6, sometimes to e6, are elegant but slow.

Max I. also introduced 10...g6!? "to prepare ...Ne4 also deserves attention, given that I am recommending ... g6 in many positions." It's taken me a while to warm up to ...g6 in general, but am now a convert. It blunts the bishop and queen battery for starters. Max goes on to analyse 11h3, 11Rab1, and 11Rae1.

After 10...g6 11h3 Ne4 12Bf4, Max gives ...Ndf6. This demonstrates the advantage of the line; black can bring the queen knight into the game quicker than is usually the case. I think 12Bxe7 Qxe7 deserves a look also. I've had fun looking at 11h3 Nb6!? Again, black is bringing his queen knight into the game a little quicker than normal.

After
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Qc2 Nbd7 9. Nf3 Re8 10. O-O g6!? 11h3 Nb6!?, there are a maze of possible lines. They require strategic understanding and tactical alertness. In other words, I am well out of my depth. Still, neither I, nor my computer engine have found a problem so far. Take a look an tell me what you think!
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #34 - 12/05/17 at 18:12:16
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GM Max Illingworth has provided some great analysis on CP, a repertoire in itself. He has looked at many lines of course, but I followed his analysis of the main-main QGD Exchange variation, both with Ne2 and Nf3.

There is also a new book by Nigel Davies that I intend to get. I think he covers the main Exchange also.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0764G564Q/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=IFTOG1VOZL1O0&colid=3...

I think black is in fine shapes. The downside is that there is a lot of theory. The upside is that it is fascinating, and that it leads to a fighting game.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #33 - 08/17/16 at 21:19:52
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gewgaw wrote on 08/17/16 at 20:19:12:
Nevertheless we should first of all structure all useful lines Black has in the exchange system an then find the best way. Many years ago I played the exchange rate with White and had many problems, when Black played on the queenside with b7-b5 and put a knight on c4, but actually you don't see this set up in grandmaster games.


Well, the general possiblity of meeting the minority attack in that way goes way back.  (I always recall Soltis, in the first edition of his pawn structure book from the 1970s, calling it the "burn the positional bridges" defense.)
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #32 - 08/17/16 at 20:19:12
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After years of playing Indian Systems with Black, I thought about playing the QGD with Black. The Tartakower and the Lasker are according to my research in good shape, the exchange rate is indeed a problem for Black, so I tend to play 4. cd5 Nd5 like Kramnik played recently and the pawn structure reminds me to Grünfeld lines.

Nevertheless we should first of all structure all useful lines Black has in the exchange system an then find the best way. Many years ago I played the exchange rate with White and had many problems, when Black played on the queenside with b7-b5 and put a knight on c4, but actually you don't see this set up in grandmaster games.
  

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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #31 - 08/17/16 at 19:41:25
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 08/17/16 at 10:21:16:
Stigma wrote on 08/10/16 at 17:29:28:
Laramonet wrote on 08/10/16 at 15:18:03:
Sorry Lee, I'm suggesting it for Black. It seems better when white has committed to Nf3, ruling out the Bd3 and f3 option with a delayed or omitted Qc2.

But White committing to Nf3 that early isn't considered critical in any Exchange line (even if he intends to play Nf3 eventually). Therefore it isn't played much by those who know the theory.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cxd5 exd5, the main line is 5.Bf4, when White can later play either Nge2, Nf3 or a pawn rush with g4 and h4 targeting a bishop on f5. 5.Nf3 would lose that flexibility and shouldn't be dangerous in any case. Getting in ...Bf5 is often the way to punish an early Nf3, hence LeeRoth's 7...Bf5 which is a clear equalizer. In fact, even 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.Qc2 (trying to stop ...Bf5) 7...g6! 8.e3 Bf5 is considered fully equal.



Yeah, this last line you gave is mentioned by King and he suggests looking at the game Bobotsov - Petrosian 1968.


Isn't that game mandatory anyway Smiley ?
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #30 - 08/17/16 at 10:21:16
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Stigma wrote on 08/10/16 at 17:29:28:
Laramonet wrote on 08/10/16 at 15:18:03:
Sorry Lee, I'm suggesting it for Black. It seems better when white has committed to Nf3, ruling out the Bd3 and f3 option with a delayed or omitted Qc2.

But White committing to Nf3 that early isn't considered critical in any Exchange line (even if he intends to play Nf3 eventually). Therefore it isn't played much by those who know the theory.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cxd5 exd5, the main line is 5.Bf4, when White can later play either Nge2, Nf3 or a pawn rush with g4 and h4 targeting a bishop on f5. 5.Nf3 would lose that flexibility and shouldn't be dangerous in any case. Getting in ...Bf5 is often the way to punish an early Nf3, hence LeeRoth's 7...Bf5 which is a clear equalizer. In fact, even 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.Qc2 (trying to stop ...Bf5) 7...g6! 8.e3 Bf5 is considered fully equal.



Yeah, this last line you gave is mentioned by King and he suggests looking at the game Bobotsov - Petrosian 1968.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #29 - 08/17/16 at 10:15:38
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nestor wrote on 08/09/16 at 18:17:05:
King doesn't cover 8.Bd3 in his DVD, which is disappointing as it's a pretty obvious move.

However, after 8.Bd3 Nbd7, what does White play now? 9.Nf3, 9.Nge2 and 9.f3 all allow 9...Nh5 anyway (I'm not certain this is best after 9.f3 but that's for another time). 9.h3 is a move, but then 9...Ne4 is surely OK for Black. So is 8.Bd3 a real problem?


Yeah, King doesn't mention 8.Bd3 on the DVD I think, but in the additional games database, he gives the game Zhu Chen - Short 1992 which has 8.Bd3:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1252470
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #28 - 08/11/16 at 17:57:45
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Historical aside:  Kramnik's Qb1 vs. Timman was an "N" in the Informant, but such a move (hitting h7 and preparing b4) had been seen before.  In the 1970s, ECO cited a version of it from Cuellar-Incutto, Argentina 1957.  (Incidentally Van Wely played it today against Landa, in yet another version.)
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #27 - 08/11/16 at 15:30:03
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Laramonet wrote on 08/10/16 at 18:46:22:
I agree Stigma and then the battle ground would move to the Bf4 and g4 Botvinnik lines. However, if White does play 7.e3, Black can go into the King recommended lines or, as you suggest 7..., Bf5.


Wait...it's 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 that "moves the battleground to the  Botvinnik lines"--and then only if White still wants to exchange on d5. Surely you don't mean that King's  3...Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 is so good for Black that White will avoid it if Black plays 3...Nf6. The absence of Korneev's finesse after the further 8.Bd3 Nh5, which King doesn't cover and Stigma pointed out, doesn't mean Black is equal after 8...Nh5, for example, or after 8...Nbd7. I would certainly play these for White and consider myself to have an advantage; Black still has a problem piece and a problem with pawn breaks.

They're normal, not like the lines where White plays a too-early early Nf3, allowing Black successfully to trade off his light-square bishop. Those lines (the ones that Stigma just gave with ...c6, possibly ...g6, and...Bf5) are not on the same footing as the King lines but are a famous equalizer for Black--and the only reason that 3...Be7 even works to "move the battlefield."
« Last Edit: 08/11/16 at 21:21:29 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #26 - 08/10/16 at 18:46:22
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I agree Stigma and then the battle ground would move to the Bf4 and g4 Botvinnik lines. However, if White does play 7.e3, Black can go into the King recommended lines or, as you suggest 7..., Bf5.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #25 - 08/10/16 at 18:46:17
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Speaking of that non-critical version of Nf3, I was a bit surprised when I recently noticed the young GM Jorden van Foreest (facing a GM opponent) not going for the theoretically "correct" ...Bf5 (annotated at http://www.schaaksite.nl/2016/07/27/toernooi-in-vaujany/, in Dutch).

However, his even younger FM brother Lucas (at a different event, a bit earlier) did choose ...Bf5 (and won against a much lower-rated opponent) ...

(By the way, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.Qc2 g6 White can play 8. e4.  That always reminds me of a game Karpov-Yusupov in which Black then chose the wrong capture.)
« Last Edit: 08/10/16 at 20:10:02 by kylemeister »  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #24 - 08/10/16 at 17:29:28
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Laramonet wrote on 08/10/16 at 15:18:03:
Sorry Lee, I'm suggesting it for Black. It seems better when white has committed to Nf3, ruling out the Bd3 and f3 option with a delayed or omitted Qc2.

But White committing to Nf3 that early isn't considered critical in any Exchange line (even if he intends to play Nf3 eventually). Therefore it isn't played much by those who know the theory.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cxd5 exd5, the main line is 5.Bf4, when White can later play either Nge2, Nf3 or a pawn rush with g4 and h4 targeting a bishop on f5. 5.Nf3 would lose that flexibility and shouldn't be dangerous in any case. Getting in ...Bf5 is often the way to punish an early Nf3, hence LeeRoth's 7...Bf5 which is a clear equalizer. In fact, even 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.Qc2 (trying to stop ...Bf5) 7...g6! 8.e3 Bf5 is considered fully equal.
  

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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #23 - 08/10/16 at 15:18:03
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Sorry Lee, I'm suggesting it for Black. It seems better when white has committed to Nf3, ruling out the Bd3 and f3 option with a delayed or omitted Qc2.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #22 - 08/10/16 at 14:29:42
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Laramonet wrote on 08/10/16 at 14:17:34:
I agree that King does not cover 8.Bd3 and that 8..., Nbd7 9.f3 is probably a good response. However, not that he makes it clear but wouldn't his suggestion work using the 3..., Be7 move order ?
That is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.e3 h6 8.Bh4 Nbd7 9.Bd3 Nh5 10.Be7 Qe711.Qc2.


It's not guaranteed to work against 3..Be7.   In your move order, for example, Black can play 7..Bf5.
  
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