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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Making the Exchange QGD work for Black (Read 18831 times)
RdC
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #36 - 08/20/18 at 23:40:15
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FreeRepublic wrote on 08/20/18 at 22:08:50:
I've been looking at the QGD exchange variation(s). There are many variations and sidelines.



The problem is that most of them are too easy to play for White. Whilst I might like to play the sequence 1. d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Nbd7 with the aim of playing the Cambridge Springs, the reply 5. cxd5 is discouraging.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #35 - 08/20/18 at 22:08:50
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I've been looking at the QGD exchange variation(s). There are many variations and sidelines.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Qc2 Nbd7 9. Nf3 Re8 10. O-O is the main line.

GM Max Illingworth of Chess Publishing provides very good analysis of the main line with 10...Nf8. I look forward to seeing the former main line 11Rb1 in my games, but remain less confident after the newer main line move 11h3! Black's maneuvers with his queen knight, ...Nd7-f8 sometimes to g6, sometimes to e6, are elegant but slow.

Max I. also introduced 10...g6!? "to prepare ...Ne4 also deserves attention, given that I am recommending ... g6 in many positions." It's taken me a while to warm up to ...g6 in general, but am now a convert. It blunts the bishop and queen battery for starters. Max goes on to analyse 11h3, 11Rab1, and 11Rae1.

After 10...g6 11h3 Ne4 12Bf4, Max gives ...Ndf6. This demonstrates the advantage of the line; black can bring the queen knight into the game quicker than is usually the case. I think 12Bxe7 Qxe7 deserves a look also. I've had fun looking at 11h3 Nb6!? Again, black is bringing his queen knight into the game a little quicker than normal.

After
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Qc2 Nbd7 9. Nf3 Re8 10. O-O g6!? 11h3 Nb6!?, there are a maze of possible lines. They require strategic understanding and tactical alertness. In other words, I am well out of my depth. Still, neither I, nor my computer engine have found a problem so far. Take a look an tell me what you think!
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #34 - 12/05/17 at 18:12:16
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GM Max Illingworth has provided some great analysis on CP, a repertoire in itself. He has looked at many lines of course, but I followed his analysis of the main-main QGD Exchange variation, both with Ne2 and Nf3.

There is also a new book by Nigel Davies that I intend to get. I think he covers the main Exchange also.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0764G564Q/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=IFTOG1VOZL1O0&colid=3...

I think black is in fine shapes. The downside is that there is a lot of theory. The upside is that it is fascinating, and that it leads to a fighting game.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #33 - 08/17/16 at 21:19:52
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gewgaw wrote on 08/17/16 at 20:19:12:
Nevertheless we should first of all structure all useful lines Black has in the exchange system an then find the best way. Many years ago I played the exchange rate with White and had many problems, when Black played on the queenside with b7-b5 and put a knight on c4, but actually you don't see this set up in grandmaster games.


Well, the general possiblity of meeting the minority attack in that way goes way back.  (I always recall Soltis, in the first edition of his pawn structure book from the 1970s, calling it the "burn the positional bridges" defense.)
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #32 - 08/17/16 at 20:19:12
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After years of playing Indian Systems with Black, I thought about playing the QGD with Black. The Tartakower and the Lasker are according to my research in good shape, the exchange rate is indeed a problem for Black, so I tend to play 4. cd5 Nd5 like Kramnik played recently and the pawn structure reminds me to Grünfeld lines.

Nevertheless we should first of all structure all useful lines Black has in the exchange system an then find the best way. Many years ago I played the exchange rate with White and had many problems, when Black played on the queenside with b7-b5 and put a knight on c4, but actually you don't see this set up in grandmaster games.
  

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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #31 - 08/17/16 at 19:41:25
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 08/17/16 at 10:21:16:
Stigma wrote on 08/10/16 at 17:29:28:
Laramonet wrote on 08/10/16 at 15:18:03:
Sorry Lee, I'm suggesting it for Black. It seems better when white has committed to Nf3, ruling out the Bd3 and f3 option with a delayed or omitted Qc2.

But White committing to Nf3 that early isn't considered critical in any Exchange line (even if he intends to play Nf3 eventually). Therefore it isn't played much by those who know the theory.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cxd5 exd5, the main line is 5.Bf4, when White can later play either Nge2, Nf3 or a pawn rush with g4 and h4 targeting a bishop on f5. 5.Nf3 would lose that flexibility and shouldn't be dangerous in any case. Getting in ...Bf5 is often the way to punish an early Nf3, hence LeeRoth's 7...Bf5 which is a clear equalizer. In fact, even 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.Qc2 (trying to stop ...Bf5) 7...g6! 8.e3 Bf5 is considered fully equal.



Yeah, this last line you gave is mentioned by King and he suggests looking at the game Bobotsov - Petrosian 1968.


Isn't that game mandatory anyway Smiley ?
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #30 - 08/17/16 at 10:21:16
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Stigma wrote on 08/10/16 at 17:29:28:
Laramonet wrote on 08/10/16 at 15:18:03:
Sorry Lee, I'm suggesting it for Black. It seems better when white has committed to Nf3, ruling out the Bd3 and f3 option with a delayed or omitted Qc2.

But White committing to Nf3 that early isn't considered critical in any Exchange line (even if he intends to play Nf3 eventually). Therefore it isn't played much by those who know the theory.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cxd5 exd5, the main line is 5.Bf4, when White can later play either Nge2, Nf3 or a pawn rush with g4 and h4 targeting a bishop on f5. 5.Nf3 would lose that flexibility and shouldn't be dangerous in any case. Getting in ...Bf5 is often the way to punish an early Nf3, hence LeeRoth's 7...Bf5 which is a clear equalizer. In fact, even 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.Qc2 (trying to stop ...Bf5) 7...g6! 8.e3 Bf5 is considered fully equal.



Yeah, this last line you gave is mentioned by King and he suggests looking at the game Bobotsov - Petrosian 1968.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #29 - 08/17/16 at 10:15:38
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nestor wrote on 08/09/16 at 18:17:05:
King doesn't cover 8.Bd3 in his DVD, which is disappointing as it's a pretty obvious move.

However, after 8.Bd3 Nbd7, what does White play now? 9.Nf3, 9.Nge2 and 9.f3 all allow 9...Nh5 anyway (I'm not certain this is best after 9.f3 but that's for another time). 9.h3 is a move, but then 9...Ne4 is surely OK for Black. So is 8.Bd3 a real problem?


Yeah, King doesn't mention 8.Bd3 on the DVD I think, but in the additional games database, he gives the game Zhu Chen - Short 1992 which has 8.Bd3:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1252470
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #28 - 08/11/16 at 17:57:45
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Historical aside:  Kramnik's Qb1 vs. Timman was an "N" in the Informant, but such a move (hitting h7 and preparing b4) had been seen before.  In the 1970s, ECO cited a version of it from Cuellar-Incutto, Argentina 1957.  (Incidentally Van Wely played it today against Landa, in yet another version.)
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #27 - 08/11/16 at 15:30:03
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Laramonet wrote on 08/10/16 at 18:46:22:
I agree Stigma and then the battle ground would move to the Bf4 and g4 Botvinnik lines. However, if White does play 7.e3, Black can go into the King recommended lines or, as you suggest 7..., Bf5.


Wait...it's 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 that "moves the battleground to the  Botvinnik lines"--and then only if White still wants to exchange on d5. Surely you don't mean that King's  3...Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 is so good for Black that White will avoid it if Black plays 3...Nf6. The absence of Korneev's finesse after the further 8.Bd3 Nh5, which King doesn't cover and Stigma pointed out, doesn't mean Black is equal after 8...Nh5, for example, or after 8...Nbd7. I would certainly play these for White and consider myself to have an advantage; Black still has a problem piece and a problem with pawn breaks.

They're normal, not like the lines where White plays a too-early early Nf3, allowing Black successfully to trade off his light-square bishop. Those lines (the ones that Stigma just gave with ...c6, possibly ...g6, and...Bf5) are not on the same footing as the King lines but are a famous equalizer for Black--and the only reason that 3...Be7 even works to "move the battlefield."
« Last Edit: 08/11/16 at 21:21:29 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #26 - 08/10/16 at 18:46:22
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I agree Stigma and then the battle ground would move to the Bf4 and g4 Botvinnik lines. However, if White does play 7.e3, Black can go into the King recommended lines or, as you suggest 7..., Bf5.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #25 - 08/10/16 at 18:46:17
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Speaking of that non-critical version of Nf3, I was a bit surprised when I recently noticed the young GM Jorden van Foreest (facing a GM opponent) not going for the theoretically "correct" ...Bf5 (annotated at http://www.schaaksite.nl/2016/07/27/toernooi-in-vaujany/, in Dutch).

However, his even younger FM brother Lucas (at a different event, a bit earlier) did choose ...Bf5 (and won against a much lower-rated opponent) ...

(By the way, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.Qc2 g6 White can play 8. e4.  That always reminds me of a game Karpov-Yusupov in which Black then chose the wrong capture.)
« Last Edit: 08/10/16 at 20:10:02 by kylemeister »  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #24 - 08/10/16 at 17:29:28
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Laramonet wrote on 08/10/16 at 15:18:03:
Sorry Lee, I'm suggesting it for Black. It seems better when white has committed to Nf3, ruling out the Bd3 and f3 option with a delayed or omitted Qc2.

But White committing to Nf3 that early isn't considered critical in any Exchange line (even if he intends to play Nf3 eventually). Therefore it isn't played much by those who know the theory.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cxd5 exd5, the main line is 5.Bf4, when White can later play either Nge2, Nf3 or a pawn rush with g4 and h4 targeting a bishop on f5. 5.Nf3 would lose that flexibility and shouldn't be dangerous in any case. Getting in ...Bf5 is often the way to punish an early Nf3, hence LeeRoth's 7...Bf5 which is a clear equalizer. In fact, even 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.Qc2 (trying to stop ...Bf5) 7...g6! 8.e3 Bf5 is considered fully equal.
  

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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #23 - 08/10/16 at 15:18:03
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Sorry Lee, I'm suggesting it for Black. It seems better when white has committed to Nf3, ruling out the Bd3 and f3 option with a delayed or omitted Qc2.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #22 - 08/10/16 at 14:29:42
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Laramonet wrote on 08/10/16 at 14:17:34:
I agree that King does not cover 8.Bd3 and that 8..., Nbd7 9.f3 is probably a good response. However, not that he makes it clear but wouldn't his suggestion work using the 3..., Be7 move order ?
That is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.e3 h6 8.Bh4 Nbd7 9.Bd3 Nh5 10.Be7 Qe711.Qc2.


It's not guaranteed to work against 3..Be7.   In your move order, for example, Black can play 7..Bf5.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #21 - 08/10/16 at 14:17:34
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I agree that King does not cover 8.Bd3 and that 8..., Nbd7 9.f3 is probably a good response. However, not that he makes it clear but wouldn't his suggestion work using the 3..., Be7 move order ?
That is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.e3 h6 8.Bh4 Nbd7 9.Bd3 Nh5 10.Be7 Qe711.Qc2.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #20 - 08/10/16 at 01:02:51
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nestor wrote on 08/09/16 at 21:02:01:
Stigma wrote on 08/09/16 at 19:52:20:
How about 8.Bd3 Nbd7 9.Nge2 Nh5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.g4 for White? I though this option was one of the benefits White gets from foregoing an early Qc2 (in favour of Nge2). But maybe I'm mixing up some lines here.


There is some analysis of the line 6.e3 Be7 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8. Nge2 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.g4 Nhf6 11.Ng3 in the ChessPub Archives. Even that looks playable for Black, and here Black has the extra move ...h6 because of White's Bg5-h4-xe7, which should be useful provided Black can castle on the same side as White. I'd play this for either side.

There must be a very high chance of both players castling long from this position. If both castle short, both kings are weakened, but ...h6 could conceivably give White a "hook" for his attack if he can keep control.

I remember looking at the games of ...Nh5 specialists like Uwe Bönsch and Lars Bo Hansen (who has some interesting material on both ...Nh5 and other Exchange QGD lines in How Chess Games Are Won And Lost), and Black seemed to be comfortable when he had time for ...g6 to gain the g7 option for the knight on h5. The early g4 we're discussing forces the knight back to f6. But if even this is OK, I may well start playing it with Black  Smiley
  

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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #19 - 08/10/16 at 00:27:35
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ReneDescartes wrote on 08/09/16 at 21:45:16:
But if 8.Bd3 Nbd7, another approach is just 9.Nf3 when 9...Nh5 doesn't seem to have much point--it doesn't look worth it losing time like that to trade a piece; Black will have to pull the knight back to f6 soon anyway, if only to avoid a discovery with Nd2. But if Black avoids this we get a more or less normal advantage for White in the Exchange.

interesting. I suppose most Whites, especially below GM level, would try to play the same setup with ...h6 in as they would without it, i.e. typically Nge2 for me.

But I just looked this up in Kornev's A Practical White Repertoire 1, whose Exchange QGD repertoire is Nf3 based but doesn't mention this move order with ...h6. He does however give the line 6.e3 Be7 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Nf3 "This is an important finesse[...]" - avoiding Qc2 to keep another option for the queen: 8...Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.0-0 0-0 11.Qb1! "White exploits the temporary defenselessness of Black's h7-pawn and wins a tempo for the organization of his typical pawn minority attack.", following a game Kramnik-Timman, Belgrade 1995 to a +=. Obviously, with ...h6/Bh4 thrown in, this Qb1 "finesse" doesn't work nearly as well, so that could be a slight improvement for Black.
  

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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #18 - 08/09/16 at 21:45:16
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So beat Adams last year at the Gashimov Memorial with 8.Bd3 Nbd7 9.f3. Again, this plan looks logical to me because it uses the extra ...h6 business to advantage. So does Nge2 and g4, and so would queenside castling.

But if 8.Bd3 Nbd7, another approach is just 9.Nf3 when 9...Nh5 doesn't seem to have much point--it doesn't look worth it losing time like that to trade a piece; Black will have to pull the knight back to f6 soon anyway, if only to avoid a discovery with Nd2. But if Black avoids this we get a more or less normal advantage for White in the Exchange.

« Last Edit: 08/10/16 at 00:09:42 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #17 - 08/09/16 at 21:02:01
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Stigma wrote on 08/09/16 at 19:52:20:
How about 8.Bd3 Nbd7 9.Nge2 Nh5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.g4 for White? I though this option was one of the benefits White gets from foregoing an early Qc2 (in favour of Nge2). But maybe I'm mixing up some lines here.


There is some analysis of the line 6.e3 Be7 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8. Nge2 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.g4 Nhf6 11.Ng3 in the ChessPub Archives. Even that looks playable for Black, and here Black has the extra move ...h6 because of White's Bg5-h4-xe7, which should be useful provided Black can castle on the same side as White. I'd play this for either side.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #16 - 08/09/16 at 19:52:20
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nestor wrote on 08/09/16 at 18:17:05:
However, after 8.Bd3 Nbd7, what does White play now? 9.Nf3, 9.Nge2 and 9.f3 all allow 9...Nh5 anyway (I'm not certain this is best after 9.f3 but that's for another time). 9.h3 is a move, but then 9...Ne4 is surely OK for Black. So is 8.Bd3 a real problem?


How about 8.Bd3 Nbd7 9.Nge2 Nh5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.g4 for White? I though this option was one of the benefits White gets from foregoing an early Qc2 (in favour of Nge2). But maybe I'm mixing up some lines here.

I considered the ...Nh5 lines for Black a while back, and concluded they were perfectly fine if White spends time on an early Qc2, but harder to play if he doesn't. If that's correct, it's one more reason Black really wants to make the Short endgame line work.

More generally, Black has lots of interesting extra options against an early Qc2 (including an early ...h6/g5/Nh5 as tried by Aagaard, a newish line with ...h6/g6/Bg7, and ...Na6 lines). The main reason some White players go to the trouble of allowing all that, is they think the Short endgame line equalizes against Bd3, or they really dislike the positions it leads to. But maybe the Hammer/Carlsen novelty takes care of that problem now, I haven't looked at it.
  

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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #15 - 08/09/16 at 18:17:05
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King doesn't cover 8.Bd3 in his DVD, which is disappointing as it's a pretty obvious move.

However, after 8.Bd3 Nbd7, what does White play now? 9.Nf3, 9.Nge2 and 9.f3 all allow 9...Nh5 anyway (I'm not certain this is best after 9.f3 but that's for another time). 9.h3 is a move, but then 9...Ne4 is surely OK for Black. So is 8.Bd3 a real problem?
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #14 - 08/09/16 at 18:16:49
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For what it's worth, I recalled that ...Ne4 in the version without ...h6 and Bh4 is a "book" move going way back.  At least, ECO over several decades had it as leading to +=.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #13 - 08/09/16 at 17:26:26
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Someone just played this against me. I played 8.Bd3 and White messed up (in my opinion) with 8...Bg4, so I went for the f3 plan, when the inclusion of ...h6 Bh4 just helps White's bishop go where it wants to go. I doubt 8...Ne4 would be that great...just exchange everything and it looks a little awkward for Black to my amateur eyes--but then I play the French and don't mind an enemy pawn on my K4 square. Furthermore, I don't see why 8...Nd7 9.Nf3 is any worse than the same line by Kramnik with ...h6 not in. I still don't think ...h6 goes well with Nd7, not that it is refutable by theory but rather that is mildly not a good idea in the same way that loosening your king is not a good idea.

I suspect this line's main advantage is that it's a reasonable line not (yet) in books and it's not as precisely explored as its sisters without ...h6.

But maybe King has something up his sleeve...I haven't seen the DVD.

  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #12 - 08/08/16 at 01:37:14
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 07/30/16 at 08:11:19:
You could also try the line that Daniel King recommends in his recent Power Play DVD on the Queen's Gambit Declined for Black:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 Be7, with the idea of playing ...Nh5, when White either exchanges bishops on e7 or has to allow ...Nh5-xg3 if he plays Bg3. King doesn't like the old main line either and suggests this instead. Adams played this way against Navara last year. I think this line is pretty good!


This is an interesting move order.  So if 8.Bd3, what does King recommend?  Wondering if 8..Ne4 works for Black here?

I assume on 8.Qc2, the idea is 8..Nbd7 9.Bd3 Nh5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.Nge2 Nb6 and now it used to be thought that White should play 12.0-0-0 or 12.h3 and then 0-0-0, with the idea in either case of playing for f3 and e3-e4.  Would also be interested to hear what King recommends for Black against this plan. 

Thanks!
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #11 - 08/04/16 at 16:00:09
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lapusneanul wrote on 08/04/16 at 14:53:43:
kylemeister, do you know if they discuss this in the yearbook?


I haven't seen the article (in YB 115).  The game file includes two games (Berkes-Svetushkin and Cheparinov-Vitiugov) without early Qc2, and in those Black didn't play ...h6.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #10 - 08/04/16 at 14:53:43
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RdC wrote on 07/22/16 at 00:24:55:
Seeley wrote on 07/22/16 at 00:08:23:
However, to give you a starting point, a quick database search reveals that the line was repeated a month after Carlsen-Kramnik in a game Parligras (2599)-Kovalenko (2644), in which Kovalenko played 12...f5 instead of Kramnik's 12...Nb6, and even went on to win.


That idea does seem to have its points, fighting for what is the probably all important f5 square. Another idea is to defer f5 for a move or two by playing O-O-O first.



This was the normal idea against Nf3-h4 before the Carlsen/Hammer novelty. Max analyzed 12...f5 for ChessPub when he looked at the Carlsen - Kramnik game. You can check out that analysis but the conclusion is that White is better there. In the Parligras - Kovalenko game White played the very strange 13.Nf3 which is just not very good I think. Correct is 13.g3, after which I don't think Black equalizes.

Apart from this, Jan Gustafsson from chess24 has tried to fix this line as well and he couldn't find anything either. Jan is a pretty good theoretician and he was going to do a video series on this that I think won't happen anymore because of this problem. So after looking at this line for some time and listening to the opinions of strong players it seems to me that if there is a fix to this line it's far from trivial.

I think playing 12...f5 and continuing down that line is playable for Black, especially at club level where people probably haven't looked at it that much. White gets an advantage there but he has to be quite precise and know the right plan. But still, for me at least, this isn't a long term solution so that's why I wanted to see if people here have other ideas.

BobbyDigital80 wrote on 07/30/16 at 08:11:19:
You could also try the line that Daniel King recommends in his recent Power Play DVD on the Queen's Gambit Declined for Black:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 Be7, with the idea of playing ...Nh5, when White either exchanges bishops on e7 or has to allow ...Nh5-xg3 if he plays Bg3. King doesn't like the old main line either and suggests this instead. Adams played this way against Navara last year. I think this line is pretty good!


I agree. I knew about this game and Mickey has repeated this line so I think it's promising. The only thing I'm not sure of is what happens if White doesn't play and early Qc2. My understanding is that there are some problems there for Black. kylemeister, do you know if they discuss this in the yearbook?

Regardless, I'll definitely look into it and I'll come back with some analysis once I have something.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #9 - 07/30/16 at 14:40:35
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By the way, that insertion of ...h6 in the ...Nh5 line was also addressed by a Yearbook article from about a year ago.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #8 - 07/30/16 at 08:11:19
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You could also try the line that Daniel King recommends in his recent Power Play DVD on the Queen's Gambit Declined for Black:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 Be7, with the idea of playing ...Nh5, when White either exchanges bishops on e7 or has to allow ...Nh5-xg3 if he plays Bg3. King doesn't like the old main line either and suggests this instead. Adams played this way against Navara last year. I think this line is pretty good!
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #7 - 07/22/16 at 00:24:55
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Seeley wrote on 07/22/16 at 00:08:23:
However, to give you a starting point, a quick database search reveals that the line was repeated a month after Carlsen-Kramnik in a game Parligras (2599)-Kovalenko (2644), in which Kovalenko played 12...f5 instead of Kramnik's 12...Nb6, and even went on to win.


That idea does seem to have its points, fighting for what is the probably all important f5 square. Another idea is to defer f5 for a move or two by playing O-O-O first.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #6 - 07/22/16 at 00:08:23
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lapusneanul wrote on 07/20/16 at 22:52:24:
This used to be considered a clean equalizer for Black until the recent Carlsen - Kramnik game, in which White played 10.Nf3 Nbd7 11.Nh4 Be7 12.Ne2! with the idea of bringing the knight to f5 quickly, when White is just better. As far as I can tell this whole line now is under serious pressure because of this...
So I'm a bit stuck. Does anyone have any ideas, or are we just going to have to give up the good old QGD?

I'm trying to be helpful here, so please don't take this the wrong way but, alternatively, you could try doing a bit of work to see if you can find a way of making the line playable for Black to your satisfaction. I don't use this variation with either colour so I can offer no opinion as to how this might be done. However, to give you a starting point, a quick database search reveals that the line was repeated a month after Carlsen-Kramnik in a game Parligras (2599)-Kovalenko (2644), in which Kovalenko played 12...f5 instead of Kramnik's 12...Nb6, and even went on to win. If a player of Kovalenko's strength is prepared to play into this variation against another strong GM, then he presumably thinks it's OK for Black. Of course, he might be completely wrong and you might be right; only time and further practice will tell. The point I'm making is that it seems a bit radical to abandon a part of your repertoire altogether just because someone's come up with strong novelty in it. I suppose this happens relatively rarely in the QGD, but in sharper openings, such as the Grunfeld, it happens much more frequently. It's really not all that often that a whole line is put out of business by a single novelty and, in fact, this is the way that opening theory moves forward. You should see it, not as a cause for despair, but as a challenge.
So the suggestion I'd make to you is that, instead of fundamentally rejigging your opening repertoire, you might find it
1) less work
2) more rewarding in terms of your understanding of the variation and
3) more fun
to use a database, an engine and your own brain to see if you can  improve on Kramnik's surprised over-the-board response to the new idea.

(edit:line spacing corrected)
« Last Edit: 07/22/16 at 01:22:23 by Seeley »  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #5 - 07/21/16 at 03:41:02
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kylemeister wrote on 07/21/16 at 02:07:21:
There is of course 3...Be7 ...


I was considering that too, but I prefer the move order with 1...Nf6 2...e6, at least threatening to play the Nimzo, in which case you can't play this line.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #4 - 07/21/16 at 03:29:28
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MNb wrote on 07/21/16 at 01:33:51:
lapusneanul wrote on 07/20/16 at 22:52:24:
Does anyone have any ideas,

If you don't mind extra work you could take up the Nimzo Indian and play 3...d5 against 3.Nf3 and 3.g3. Then the Exchange is toothless. However you'll have to find something against 1.c4.


Yes, that is probably the best way to play. As a matter of fact I already play the Nimzo as well and do pretty much what you're suggesting. But kind of wanted to fix this variation as well so I have an extra option against 3.Nc3.

RdC wrote on 07/20/16 at 23:13:02:
lapusneanul wrote on 07/20/16 at 22:52:24:
So I'm a bit stuck. Does anyone have any ideas, or are we just going to have to give up the good old QGD?
                   



You could try the Kramnik idea of taking with the Knight on d5. That would usually transpose to lines of the semi-Tarrasch. That said, they aren't terribly good for Black, particularly if Black wants to play for win. They aren't terribly good for Black either if White wants to play for a win and knows what he's doing.

Just how bad for Black are the normal tabias? Engines don't seem scared of them, but White does well in practice by just using ideas established back in the Capablanca era.


Yeah, the semi-Tarrasch doesn't really appeal to me. Kramnik seems to be pulling it off, but I'm not really convinced that it's that nice to play. As for the normal tabiyas, I assume you mean the lines with ...0-0, ...Re8, ...Nf8-g6(e6)? I think these lines are just comfortably better for White and I wouldn't seriously consider playing them. White can choose between the Ne2, f3, e3-e4 plan or the minority attack and Black has to keep defending with no real prospects. These lines are the reason the Exchange QGD is so popular at club level. White has all the fun there.
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #3 - 07/21/16 at 02:07:21
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There is of course 3...Be7 ...
  
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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #2 - 07/21/16 at 01:33:51
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lapusneanul wrote on 07/20/16 at 22:52:24:
Does anyone have any ideas,

If you don't mind extra work you could take up the Nimzo Indian and play 3...d5 against 3.Nf3 and 3.g3. Then the Exchange is toothless. However you'll have to find something against 1.c4.
  

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Re: Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
Reply #1 - 07/20/16 at 23:13:02
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lapusneanul wrote on 07/20/16 at 22:52:24:
So I'm a bit stuck. Does anyone have any ideas, or are we just going to have to give up the good old QGD?
                   



You could try the Kramnik idea of taking with the Knight on d5. That would usually transpose to lines of the semi-Tarrasch. That said, they aren't terribly good for Black, particularly if Black wants to play for win. They aren't terribly good for Black either if White wants to play for a win and knows what he's doing.

Just how bad for Black are the normal tabias? Engines don't seem scared of them, but White does well in practice by just using ideas established back in the Capablanca era.
  
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Making the Exchange QGD work for Black
07/20/16 at 22:52:24
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I've been playing the QGD for a few years now with reasonable results. Against the exchange I typically go 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 following Cox's excellent book on the QGD. Here against 6.e3 my main weapon has been the Short Variation with 6...Bf5 where White's best chance is to go for the endgame with 7.Qf3 Bg6 8.Bxf6 Qxf6 9.Qxf6 gxf6. This used to be considered a clean equalizer for Black until the recent Carlsen - Kramnik game, in which White played 10.Nf3 Nbd7 11.Nh4 Be7 12.Ne2! with the idea of bringing the knight to f5 quickly, when White is just better. As far as I can tell this whole line now is under serious pressure because of this.

So the question is what to play instead. The other approach Black can take is to try and play an early ...Nh5, followed by ...g6, with the idea of ...Ng7 followed by ...Bf5, exchanging light-squared bishops. This works well against the lines with the queen on c2 and is also recommended by Cox, but without committing the queen to c2 early, White gets some extra options (an early g4 is one idea). So I'm a bit stuck. Does anyone have any ideas, or are we just going to have to give up the good old QGD?
  
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