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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Repertoire books vs Pirc (Read 13756 times)
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #24 - 09/27/16 at 00:45:54
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JEH wrote on 09/26/16 at 11:49:46:
This is what might be referred to as the 150, but I prefer its newer adopted named of the Argentine.

To nitpick a bit: in general lines with Be3 and f3 are the Argentinean Attack; it was played by Argentinean players even before the Pirc received its name.
The 150-Attack replaces f3 with Nf3 and Bd3.
There are also some variations in between like 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6.


Quote:
Very dangerous and very interesting!

Certainly. And combining the two or three (playing 4.Be3 and 5.Qd2 and see first what Black does) is even more dangerous!

Bibs wrote on 09/26/16 at 12:26:51:
One more thing, James (Vigus) called the f3 system the Argentine(an), iirc. His suggested nomenclature. Not sure of that name meself.

Yours truly suggested it to him for the reason I mentioned above. The variation starting with 4.f3 never received a proper name.

Bibs wrote on 09/26/16 at 12:26:51:
Possible, but doesn't happen.

At least yours truly started playing 4.f3 and around 1990 switched to 4.Be3 evt. later 6.f3. GM Westerinen made it happen in 1972 and Sveshnikov in 1983.
The reason for me is exactly that for instance 4.f3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 b5 tends to produce a rather positional game.
  

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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #23 - 09/26/16 at 22:48:21
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Bibs wrote on 09/26/16 at 12:26:51:
A 150 player would not really be playing with f3, IMHO. It's like going out the house to go watch footie, then deciding to go watch rugby instead, while in the car. Possible, but doesn't happen.

Grin But apart from speculating on White's indecision, more importantly both Be3 with Nf3 and Be3 with f3 are serious tries for White. I've actually had opponents below 150 (equivalent) play Be3/f3 quite competently against me, so you never know. But yeah, you'd think that requires more sophistication, especially in view of the many lines where Black castles short very late or never.

Ironically, playing the 150 attack (Be3 with Nf3) well also takes some sophistication, and I've had some of my easiest Pirc wins against Whites who play this without really knowing it.

In addition to the mentioned Hebden, Adams and Hodgson, I believe Alonso Zapata was an early proponent of it in the early-mid 90s.
  

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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #22 - 09/26/16 at 15:54:48
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Bibs wrote on 09/26/16 at 12:21:40:
There is more to the 150 than that, as I understand.


Agreed. One thing I notice is e.g. play to avoid extra pawn moves like h3 and a4. White might try to do without h3 with a scorched Earth policy so a Bg4 can be met with Ng5 and also try to do without a4, or even a3 by defending e4 with Bd3 and inviting Black to weaken their Queenside with b5-b4 having kept a retreat open with Ne2.

This seems more sophisticated than "150" level play, where I think it means 150 players (or 1800 FIDE level) just want a simple plan, like hack down the h file Grin

I think the best way to meet the 150 attack is the 160 defence, i.e. just play better than your opponent. Of course if then you find out your opponent is Mark Hebden...   Shocked Sad

  

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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #21 - 09/26/16 at 14:42:12
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Bibs wrote on 09/26/16 at 13:00:31:
I think it may have originated with people like Hebden and Adams.


I've been looking at quite a few Hebden games in this  Wink
  

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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #20 - 09/26/16 at 13:00:31
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I think it may have originated with people like Hebden and Adams. Possibly Hodgson in the mix too, dunno. About 25 years ago, or so. I'd heard of it around then, on the circuit, but there was nothing published on it yet, at that time.
Books came couple of years later. Emms' e4 rep book, a mini classic, has decent earlyish coverage.
The Barry may be of similar origin and vintage.
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #19 - 09/26/16 at 12:48:37
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Yes, I picked up the Argentine attack from this forum, which may well have been from James posting about his book.

As for the 150, well there's a big clue that it's come from somebody British Wink

I think it might be Summerscale's Killer that I first saw it called the 150, and from that repertoire it has to have Nf3 in it, which is why I'd thought myself of that as the 150 attack.

But other books, like Emm's attacking which has Be3/f3 called that the 150 attack.

What's in a name? That which we call a 150 attack by any other name would smell as sweet."
  

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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #18 - 09/26/16 at 12:26:51
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One more thing, James (Vigus) called the f3 system the Argentine(an), iirc. His suggested nomenclature. Not sure of that name meself.
The 150 is played with Be3-Qd2, or Be3-Nf3 orders. Different players, different preferences.
A 150 player would not really be playing with f3, IMHO. It's like going out the house to go watch footie, then deciding to go watch rugby instead, while in the car. Possible, but doesn't happen.
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #17 - 09/26/16 at 12:21:40
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There is more to the 150 than that, as I understand.
White has the pieces on very sensible developing squares (per a 150 grade getting the bits out), and can play positionally too. Hence, e.g. the Nc3-e2-g3 plan, and undermining an overextended black queenside, which can happen.
It can be route one, ay, but often is not.
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #16 - 09/26/16 at 11:49:46
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Thanks for all your replies. I'd missed quite a lot of the d4 repertoire books, but I think I've got a good list now. I spent the weekend organising my material and having a look through bits of it.

I've changed my plan for going through it. Originally it was going to be purely chronological, but now I think I will go through the following opening groups in chronological order:

1. Austrian    4. f4
2. Argentine  4. f3 or 4. Be3 with a later f3
3. Classical    4. Nf3
4. Byrne        4. Bg5
5. Others

There are some transpositions, but eventually the split is like this. Note I'm not calling anything the 150 Attack. I think now this is really a plan, rather than an opening, the plan being to attack a Black castled king with h4-h5, but it can be combined various set ups with e.g. f3 or Nf3 or Be3 or Bg5.

Austrian
Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep
1976,Batsford,Barden/Harding,Batsford Guide to Chess Openings,4. f4 e5
1979,Chess Player,Baker,2nd Line for White,4. f4 e5
1996,Cadogan,Gufeld,Attacking,4. f4 0-0 Be3/c5 Bb5
1998,Batsford,Baker,Startling,4. f4 0-0 Be3/c5 Bb5
2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. f4 e5
2005,Everyman,Davies,Gambiteer,4. f4 a3
2005,Chess Stars,Khalifman,According to Anand,4. f4 0-0 Bd3/c5 Bb5+Bxd7
2005,New In Chess,Lalic/Okhotnik,Carpathian Warrior,4. f4 various
2011,Everyman,Greet,Beating Unusual,4. f4 0-0 Be3/c5 dxc+Qd4
2014,Mongoose,Tamburro,For Amateurs,4. f4 e5

I was a little surprised this came out on top. I rarely get the Austrian, and only from stronger players. However a popular recommendation is with an early e5 push. I'd never considered this as a wise choice, as it's Black that gets the choice of tactical chaos or an equal ending.

Argentine
Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep
1975,Oxford University Press,Walker,Chess Openings For Juniors,4. f3 Be3
1997,Batsford,Burgess/Pedersen,Beating the Indian Defences,4. Be3 f3
2001,Everyman,Emms,Attacking,4. Be3 f3
2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. f3 Be3
2004,McKay,Kaufman,Advantage,4. Be3 f3
2006,Everyman,McDonald,Starting Out 1.e4,4. Be3 f3
2012,New in Chess,Kaufman,Repertoire in Black and White,4. Be3 f3
2013,Chess Stars,Kornev,Practical White 2,4. Be3 f3
2016,New In Chess,Moret,First,4. f3 Be3

This is what might be referred to as the 150, but I prefer its newer adopted named of the Argentine. Very dangerous and very interesting!

The old juniors book only has 1 line with 9 moves and a tiny sub line, but after that there seems to have been a late surge in recommendations, even from d4 books!

Classical
Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep
1979,Batsford,Cafferty,Chess Opening For You,4. Nf3 Be2
1983,Pergamon,Mendis,From the Opening Into the Endgame,4. Nf3 Be2
1998,Everyman,Summerscale,Killer,4. Nf3 Be3
2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. Nf3 Be2
2004,Everyman,Davies,Dynamic Reti,4. Nf3 Be3+h3
2008,Everyman,Palliser,D-pawn attacks,4. Nf3 Be3
2009,Norton,Dzindzichashvili,White Explained,4. Nf3 Be3+h3
2010,Gambit,Summerscale/Johnson,Killer Enlarged,4. Nf3 Be3

I call lines where White plants Nf3 classical, although it can arrive there at different points,e.g. 2. Nf3 for those d-pawn specials.

There are three approaches which I'm calling:

1. The Karpov        5. Be2
2. The Accelerated Be3/h3
3. The Hebden       Be3/Qd2

On Marin's DVD, he meets 1 and 2 with a c6 set up, but meets 3 with an a6 set up, so it might need different treatment. 

Byrne
Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep
1976,Batsford,Barden/Harding,Batsford Guide to Chess Openings,4. Bg5
1984,Batsford,Keene/Levy,For the Attacking Player,4. Bg5
2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. Bg5
2004,Batsford,Collins,Attacking,4. Bg5
2011,Everyman,Lakdawala,Ferocious,4. Bg5
2016,Quality,Shaw,Playing e4,4. Bg5

Dangerous and causing many a Pirc player to scurry off to a Modern move order.

Others
Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep
1986,Chess Digest,Soltis,1. e4,3. Bd3
1994,World of Chess,Barlov/Jovicic,White is Better - 1.e2-e4,3. Bd3
2016,Gambit,Collins,Simple,3. Bd3
1996,Cadogan,Gufeld,Positional,3. f3
2012,Quality,Schandorff,Playing 1.d4 - The Indian Defences,3. f3
1980,Chess Player,Thomas,Line for White,4. Bc4
1998,Cardoza,Schiller,Gambit,4. Bc4
1993,Chess Digest,Soltis,Beating the Pirc,4. g3
2009,Chess Information,Chernin/Alburt,Pirc Alert!,4. g3
1992,Chess Digest,Schiller,Winning with 1. e4,Grand Prix
2005,New In Chess,Lalic/Okhotnik,Carpathian Warrior,Spike
2009,Everyman,Palliser,Dangerous Weapons,4. Be3 g4

I've had all sorts of stuff thrown at me over the years. This is a decent summary. g3 has been used by the strong players. Going for an anti-Sicilian is more popular than this list might indicate, especially since so many books offer the Grand Prix as their anti-Sicilian choice.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #15 - 09/24/16 at 10:26:09
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Straggler wrote on 09/24/16 at 10:09:57:
JEH wrote on 09/24/16 at 09:05:37:
According to Kramnik, having a classical line vs the KID, I expect would avoid the issue.

He does avoid it in the first series, but in the second (which I don't have) he goes 1.Nf3 g6 2.e4 d6 3.d4 Bg7 4.c3 and then Bd3.


Thanks. I class that as a Modern but it can be reached from a 3. Bd3 Pirc, however in the Pirc move order I prefer to avoid the g6 set up doing an early d5. But then without g6, is it really a Pirc  Huh 


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #14 - 09/24/16 at 10:09:57
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JEH wrote on 09/24/16 at 09:05:37:
According to Kramnik, having a classical line vs the KID, I expect would avoid the issue.

He does avoid it in the first series, but in the second (which I don't have) he goes 1.Nf3 g6 2.e4 d6 3.d4 Bg7 4.c3 and then Bd3.
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #13 - 09/24/16 at 09:30:32
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RdC wrote on 09/24/16 at 09:14:31:
UK practice is usually to combine Be3/g5 with f3 or Nf3. European authors and players seem more likely to play it with f4.


From my experience, it also seems UK practice is to go for side lines a lot, and outside there is a lot more main lines.

When I started playing the Pirc, I prepped for the Austrian a lot, and never got it  Huh There were lots of Karpov classicals, which were of a time, and it's still good now!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #12 - 09/24/16 at 09:22:19
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RdC wrote on 09/24/16 at 09:14:31:
Even 150 Attacks get different interpretations.


Yes, I'd made my own very rough grouping, putting what I call the 150 attack (Nf3 with Be3) in with the Nf3s.

It seems, at least from Emms book, that what the 150 attack is, is open to interpreation. It might also refer to f3 with Be3, and an h-file hack.

I refer to Be3 with a later f3 as the Argentine Attack, and its ongoing popularity may make it the same terror the Yugoslav is for Dragon players  Shocked
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #11 - 09/24/16 at 09:16:03
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Wojo's Weapons doesn't allow the Pirc. I believe BPaulsen has said somewhere that he will, with 4.Bd3, but you might have to wait a while for that!
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #10 - 09/24/16 at 09:14:31
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JEH wrote on 09/23/16 at 14:46:38:
It was interesting to see how many Austrian attacks there were, but played in different ways.


Even 150 Attacks get different interpretations. UK practice is usually to combine Be3/g5 with f3 or Nf3. European authors and players seem more likely to play it with f4. In the case of Be3 lines, that's also a sideline of the Austrian.
  
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