kylemeister wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:12:17:


I know, which is why (as I said earlier) Schandorff recommends it. But it tends to puzzle club players who have never seen anything but 3.Nc3.

RdC wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:22:11:


IIrc Bagirov had written a book on the Pirc in the 1970's; he opined - and that was the consensus - that Black should not castle and then was more than OK.



Haygarth,M (2200) - Mestel,A (2270) [B07]
BCFch Clacton on Sea (11), 16.08.1974



1-0

Due to this loss Mestel had to share first price.

I'd prefer 6.Qc1. The queen is clumsy there, but so is Qb6.

Straggler wrote on 09/28/16 at 21:22:03:


Not sure what you mean ...3. f3 has the idea of leaving the c-pawn unblocked; I recall Kasparov playing it ...

Bibs wrote on 09/28/16 at 14:01:10:

Sorry, can't remember. Maybe it was about the Petrov? A couple of weeks after Van Delft had recommended 5.Nc3 he won a crushing game as Black in this variation.

JEH wrote on 09/28/16 at 14:38:29:

That would be quite accurate 

Hi MnB. I remember some discussion of the van Delft repertoire at some point prior. Sounded interesting, but I could never find it anywhere. Where is/was that btw? Thanks!

There is also to the war of information, as 4. f3, 4. f4 and 4. Nf3 give away something about White's intentions, but 4. Be3 and 4. Bg5 retain options whilst Black is trying to hold off from various moves to see how to react.

MNb wrote on 09/27/16 at 00:45:54:


Ahah! I thought I read it on this forum 

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1158115943

JEH wrote on 09/26/16 at 11:49:46:

To nitpick a bit: in general lines with Be3 and f3 are the Argentinean Attack; it was played by Argentinean players even before the Pirc received its name.
The 150-Attack replaces f3 with Nf3 and Bd3.
There are also some variations in between like 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6.


Quote:

Certainly. And combining the two or three (playing 4.Be3 and 5.Qd2 and see first what Black does) is even more dangerous!

Bibs wrote on 09/26/16 at 12:26:51:

Yours truly suggested it to him for the reason I mentioned above. The variation starting with 4.f3 never received a proper name.

Bibs wrote on 09/26/16 at 12:26:51:

At least yours truly started playing 4.f3 and around 1990 switched to 4.Be3 evt. later 6.f3. GM Westerinen made it happen in 1972 and Sveshnikov in 1983.
The reason for me is exactly that for instance 4.f3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 b5 tends to produce a rather positional game.

Bibs wrote on 09/26/16 at 12:21:40:


Agreed. One thing I notice is e.g. play to avoid extra pawn moves like h3 and a4. White might try to do without h3 with a scorched Earth policy so a Bg4 can be met with Ng5 and also try to do without a4, or even a3 by defending e4 with Bd3 and inviting Black to weaken their Queenside with b5-b4 having kept a retreat open with Ne2.

This seems more sophisticated than "150" level play, where I think it means 150 players (or 1800 FIDE level) just want a simple plan, like hack down the h file

I think the best way to meet the 150 attack is the 160 defence, i.e. just play better than your opponent. Of course if then you find out your opponent is Mark Hebden...     

I think it may have originated with people like Hebden and Adams. Possibly Hodgson in the mix too, dunno. About 25 years ago, or so. I'd heard of it around then, on the circuit, but there was nothing published on it yet, at that time. 
Books came couple of years later. Emms' e4 rep book, a mini classic, has decent earlyish coverage. 
The Barry may be of similar origin and vintage.

One more thing, James (Vigus) called the f3 system the Argentine(an), iirc. His suggested nomenclature. Not sure of that name meself.
The 150 is played with Be3-Qd2, or Be3-Nf3 orders. Different players, different preferences.
A 150 player would not really be playing with f3, IMHO. It's like going out the house to go watch footie, then deciding to go watch rugby instead, while in the car. Possible, but doesn't happen.

Thanks for all your replies. I'd missed quite a lot of the d4 repertoire books, but I think I've got a good list now. I spent the weekend organising my material and having a look through bits of it. 

I've changed my plan for going through it. Originally it was going to be purely chronological, but now I think I will go through the following opening groups in chronological order:

1. Austrian    4. f4
2. Argentine  4. f3 or 4. Be3 with a later f3
3. Classical    4. Nf3
4. Byrne        4. Bg5
5. Others

There are some transpositions, but eventually the split is like this. Note I'm not calling anything the 150 Attack. I think now this is really a plan, rather than an opening, the plan being to attack a Black castled king with h4-h5, but it can be combined various set ups with e.g. f3 or Nf3 or Be3 or Bg5.

Austrian

Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep 1976,Batsford,Barden/Harding,Batsford Guide to Chess Openings,4. f4 e5 1979,Chess Player,Baker,2nd Line for White,4. f4 e5 1996,Cadogan,Gufeld,Attacking,4. f4 0-0 Be3/c5 Bb5 1998,Batsford,Baker,Startling,4. f4 0-0 Be3/c5 Bb5 2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. f4 e5 2005,Everyman,Davies,Gambiteer,4. f4 a3 2005,Chess Stars,Khalifman,According to Anand,4. f4 0-0 Bd3/c5 Bb5+Bxd7 2005,New In Chess,Lalic/Okhotnik,Carpathian Warrior,4. f4 various 2011,Everyman,Greet,Beating Unusual,4. f4 0-0 Be3/c5 dxc+Qd4 2014,Mongoose,Tamburro,For Amateurs,4. f4 e5

I was a little surprised this came out on top. I rarely get the Austrian, and only from stronger players. However a popular recommendation is with an early e5 push. I'd never considered this as a wise choice, as it's Black that gets the choice of tactical chaos or an equal ending. 

Argentine

Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep 1975,Oxford University Press,Walker,Chess Openings For Juniors,4. f3 Be3 1997,Batsford,Burgess/Pedersen,Beating the Indian Defences,4. Be3 f3 2001,Everyman,Emms,Attacking,4. Be3 f3 2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. f3 Be3 2004,McKay,Kaufman,Advantage,4. Be3 f3 2006,Everyman,McDonald,Starting Out 1.e4,4. Be3 f3 2012,New in Chess,Kaufman,Repertoire in Black and White,4. Be3 f3 2013,Chess Stars,Kornev,Practical White 2,4. Be3 f3 2016,New In Chess,Moret,First,4. f3 Be3

This is what might be referred to as the 150, but I prefer its newer adopted named of the Argentine. Very dangerous and very interesting!

The old juniors book only has 1 line with 9 moves and a tiny sub line, but after that there seems to have been a late surge in recommendations, even from d4 books!

Classical

Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep 1979,Batsford,Cafferty,Chess Opening For You,4. Nf3 Be2 1983,Pergamon,Mendis,From the Opening Into the Endgame,4. Nf3 Be2 1998,Everyman,Summerscale,Killer,4. Nf3 Be3 2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. Nf3 Be2 2004,Everyman,Davies,Dynamic Reti,4. Nf3 Be3+h3 2008,Everyman,Palliser,D-pawn attacks,4. Nf3 Be3 2009,Norton,Dzindzichashvili,White Explained,4. Nf3 Be3+h3 2010,Gambit,Summerscale/Johnson,Killer Enlarged,4. Nf3 Be3

I call lines where White plants Nf3 classical, although it can arrive there at different points,e.g. 2. Nf3 for those d-pawn specials.

There are three approaches which I'm calling:

1. The Karpov        5. Be2
2. The Accelerated Be3/h3
3. The Hebden       Be3/Qd2 

On Marin's DVD, he meets 1 and 2 with a c6 set up, but meets 3 with an a6 set up, so it might need different treatment.  

Byrne

Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep 1976,Batsford,Barden/Harding,Batsford Guide to Chess Openings,4. Bg5 1984,Batsford,Keene/Levy,For the Attacking Player,4. Bg5 2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. Bg5 2004,Batsford,Collins,Attacking,4. Bg5 2011,Everyman,Lakdawala,Ferocious,4. Bg5 2016,Quality,Shaw,Playing e4,4. Bg5

Dangerous and causing many a Pirc player to scurry off to a Modern move order.

Others

Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep 1986,Chess Digest,Soltis,1. e4,3. Bd3 1994,World of Chess,Barlov/Jovicic,White is Better - 1.e2-e4,3. Bd3 2016,Gambit,Collins,Simple,3. Bd3 1996,Cadogan,Gufeld,Positional,3. f3 2012,Quality,Schandorff,Playing 1.d4 - The Indian Defences,3. f3 1980,Chess Player,Thomas,Line for White,4. Bc4 1998,Cardoza,Schiller,Gambit,4. Bc4 1993,Chess Digest,Soltis,Beating the Pirc,4. g3 2009,Chess Information,Chernin/Alburt,Pirc Alert!,4. g3 1992,Chess Digest,Schiller,Winning with 1. e4,Grand Prix 2005,New In Chess,Lalic/Okhotnik,Carpathian Warrior,Spike 2009,Everyman,Palliser,Dangerous Weapons,4. Be3 g4

I've had all sorts of stuff thrown at me over the years. This is a decent summary. g3 has been used by the strong players. Going for an anti-Sicilian is more popular than this list might indicate, especially since so many books offer the Grand Prix as their anti-Sicilian choice.

JEH wrote on 09/24/16 at 09:05:37:

He does avoid it in the first series, but in the second (which I don't have) he goes 1.Nf3 g6 2.e4 d6 3.d4 Bg7 4.c3 and then Bd3.

RdC wrote on 09/24/16 at 09:14:31:


Yes, I'd made my own very rough grouping, putting what I call the 150 attack (Nf3 with Be3) in with the Nf3s.

It seems, at least from Emms book, that what the 150 attack is, is open to interpreation. It might also refer to f3 with Be3, and an h-file hack. 

I refer to Be3 with a later f3 as the Argentine Attack, and its ongoing popularity may make it the same terror the Yugoslav is for Dragon players 

JEH wrote on 09/23/16 at 14:46:38:


Even 150 Attacks get different interpretations. UK practice is usually to combine Be3/g5 with f3 or Nf3. European authors and players seem more likely to play it with f4. In the case of Be3 lines, that's also a sideline of the Austrian.

Thanks, I'm mainly an e4 player, so don't have much of the d4 books, but since I also go 1. d4 d6, it would be useful to see what's been recommended there. I'd expect most would want to keep it in d4 land as 1. d4 d6 2. e4 opens up more than just the Pirc, but I'd like to know of any more d4 books offering up the 2. e4 like Kornev and these. There was a time when 1. d4 d6 didn't even get a mention in the side lines   

I was aware of some d-pawn specials repertoires needing a line vs the Pirc, and I'd got these in my list, unless I've missed any.

The Argentine attack seems to be getting it's best coverage in d4 repertoire books 

RoleyPoley wrote on 09/23/16 at 17:55:56:


After a bit of book sorting, it became apparent how many repertoire books I have accumulated over the years, most largely redundant.

So I had in mind a little project to make use of them by doing a study of the Pirc by going through the various approches used against it over the years to see how that had evolved, to increase my understanding of the defence, and to get some use of some of my sad little books 

Thanks good one, and recent coverage of the Argentine Attack.

RdC wrote on 09/23/16 at 14:31:53:


Yes, I have that one, but I was more interested in repertoire book choices, rather than full coverage books like Complete Pirc, Ultimate Pirc and Pirc in Black and White unless those books suggested a repertoire choice for White.

It was interesting to see how many Austrian attacks there were, but played in different ways.

I have been collating the choices of various repertoire books vs the Pirc. I'd be grateful if you can fill any gaps.

Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep 1975,Oxford University Press,Walker,Chess Openings For Juniors,4. f3  Be3 1976,Batsford,Barden/Harding,Batsford Guide to Chess Openings,4. f4  e5 1976,Batsford,Barden/Harding,Batsford Guide to Chess Openings,4. Bg5 1979,Batsford,Cafferty,Chess Opening For You,4. Nf3 Be2 1979,Chess Player,Baker,2nd Line for White,4. f4 e5 1980,Chess Player,Thomas,Line for White,4. Bc4 1983,Pergamon,Mendis,From the Opening Into the Endgame,4. Nf3 Be2 1984,Batsford,Keene/Levy,For the Attacking Player,4. Bg5 1986,Chess Digest,Soltis,1. e4,3. Bd3 1992,Chess Digest,Schiller,Winning with 1. e4,Grand Prix 1993,Chess Digest,Soltis,Beating the Pirc,4. g3 1994,World of Chess,Barlov/Jovicic,White is Better - 1.e2-e4,3. Bd3 1996,Cadogan,Gufeld,Attacking,4. f4  0-0 Be3/c5 Bb5 1996,Cadogan,Gufeld,Positional,3. f3 1997,Batsford,Burgess/Pedersen,4. Be3 f3 1998,Batsford,Baker,Startling,4. f4  0-0 Be3/c5 Bb5 1998,Cardoza,Schiller,Gambit,4. Bc4 1998,Everyman,Summerscale,Killer,4. Nf3 Be3 2001,Everyman,Emms,Attacking,4. Be3 f3 2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. f4 e5 2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. Bg5 2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. Nf3 Be2 2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. f3 Be3 2004,McKay,Kaufman,Advantage,4. Be3 f3 2004,Batsford,Collins,Attacking,4. Bg5 2004,Everyman,Davies,Dynamic Reti,4. Nf3 Be3+h3 2005,Everyman,Davies,Gambiteer,4. f4  a3 2005,Chess Stars,Khalifman,According to Anand,4. f4  0-0 Bd3/c5 Bb5+Bxd7 2005,New In Chess,Lalic/Okhotnik,Carpathian Warrior,4. f4 various 2005,New In Chess,Lalic/Okhotnik,Carpathian Warrior,Spike 2006,Everyman,McDonald,Starting Out 1.e4,4. Be3 f3 2008,Everyman,Palliser,D-pawn attacks,4. Nf3 Be3 2009,Everyman,Palliser,Dangerous Weapons,4. Be3 g4 2009,Norton,Dzindzichashvili,White Explained,4. Nf3 Be3+h3 2009,Chess Information,Chernin/Alburt,Pirc Alert!,4. g3 2010,Gambit,Summerscale/Johnson,Killer Enlarged,4. Nf3 Be3 2011,Everyman,Lakdawala,Ferocious,4. Bg5 2011,Everyman,Greet,Beating Unusual,4. f4  0-0 Be3/c5 dxc+Qd4 2012,New in Chess,Kaufman,Repertoire in Black and White,4. Be3 f3 2012,Quality,Schandorff,Playing 1.d4 - The Indian Defences,3. f3 2013,Chess Stars,Kornev,Practical White 2,4. Be3 f3 2014,Mongoose,Tamburro,For Amateurs,4. f4  e5 2016,New In Chess,Moret,First,4. f3 Be3 2016,Gambit,Collins,Simple,3. Bd3 2016,Quality,Shaw,Playing e4,4. Bg5

Totals

Austrian     10
Be3/f3       9
Nf3            8
Bg5           6
3. Bd3        3
3. f3           2
g3              2
Bc4            2
Be3/g4       1
Grand Prix   1
Spike          1