Latest Updates:
Poll
Poll closed Question: Who will win the 2016 World Championship?
bars   pie
*** This poll has now closed ***


Magnus +3    
  7 (11.5%)
Sergey +3    
  0 (0.0%)
Magnus +1-3 (regulation)    
  44 (72.1%)
Sergey +1-3 (regulation)    
  4 (6.6%)
Tie. Magnus wins the tiebreak    
  4 (6.6%)
Tie. Sergey wins the tiebreak    
  2 (3.3%)
The match goes unfinished...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 61
« Created by: Smyslov_Fan on: 11/08/16 at 08:35:54 »
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 12
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 2016 World Championship Match (Read 105668 times)
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #148 - 12/01/16 at 19:55:34
Post Tools
Dink Heckler wrote on 12/01/16 at 13:09:41:
Sure, Karjakin played well, but to be going home having barely thrown a single punch must be regrettable all the same; what if he never gets another chance?! Maybe if he'd thrown a few punches he would have gotten knocked out, but at least he wouldn't die wondering..


I think Carlsen deserves a lot more credit for allowing his opponents' to throw almost no punches over the course of 3 matches than he's getting. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #147 - 12/01/16 at 19:52:29
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:31:29:
Karjakin very unlucky not to win this match IMO.


I don't think that luck has much to do with it.  And frankly, I think that Karjakin was a bit "lucky" not to lose at least one of games 3 or 4, in which case the match would probably have been the comfortable win for Carlsen that many thought it would be at the start. 

I'm not disparaging Karjakin's incredible defensive performance, but thinking that it was mere luck that kept Karjakin from winning is odd.  It seems more "luck" that he was able to hold those two games than that he was eventually outplayed later; Carlsen was pressing and better in almost every game of this match. 

Frankly as I've said before, much of this talk about Karjakin's "psychological strategy" is nonsense in my opinion, and a direct result of him being able to hold games 3 and 4 in the heat of battle.  There was no psychological strategy involved, but Magnus's failure to convert those games caused him to doubt himself, or think overly negatively about himself, or caused him to overpress later, or whatever else.  We won't know the true story until someone in his camp reveals it to us, but the psychological pressure on Carlsen came from Karjakin defending well on the board, not some imagined psychological strategy.*

It may have been "luck" that Karjakin didn't find a forced drawing line in game 10, but he was entirely, convincingly, beautifully outplayed in that game; I don't know where all this luck stuff is coming from. 


*I'm aware that psychological conditioning and preparation is a part of all sports, but that has more to do with learning to deal with pressure, success, failure, how to avoid distractions, etc.  It's not "Hey, let's defend lifeless positions all match long and make Carlsen get annoyed!"
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #146 - 12/01/16 at 19:37:54
Post Tools
IsaVulpes wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:01:09:
The one thing he sure can be satisfied with are his results out of the opening, which makes this Kasparov-Tweet even more puzzling to me:
https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/804112977213476864
Truly unsure why he'd say that "lack of preparation" of all things was the cause of Carlsen's troubles..


He may mean endgame and technical preparation, as well as overall physical preparation (Magnus seemed tired at points during the match).  It's not always about the opening, and Kasparov certainly knows better than anyone how grueling a match like this can be.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #145 - 12/01/16 at 19:25:10
Post Tools
AJWZ wrote on 12/01/16 at 07:27:46:
Karjakin's psychological strategy of playing safe (also with White pieces) and waiting for Carlsen's mistakes didn't pay off. 


I really don't think that was Karjakin's "psychological strategy."  He was just playing the best chess he possibly could in accordance with the openings that he knew best.  Any sort of psychological advantage that he had during points of the match came from his excellent defensive play and ability to cash in on Magnus's mistakes when the World Champion overpressed, not any specific match strategy. 

He was just playing very good chess.  It's amazing how much pressure playing well puts on an opponent in any sport.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #144 - 12/01/16 at 19:05:04
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:31:29:
Karjakin very unlucky not to win this match IMO. But such is life.


But was "lucky" in getting the chance to win the WCh in the first place (e.g. Game no. 3).

Also, IsaVulpes commented:
"Congrats Carlsen! All's well that ends well, but I doubt he will be satisfied with either his overall play or his psychology."

But, in his shoes I would have been thrilled to come back from the dead and win this. It showed a different quality that many past champions had demonstrated. Now, nobody can argue about his mental toughness.
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
VKap
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 39
Joined: 09/28/14
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #143 - 12/01/16 at 16:35:47
Post Tools
Dink Heckler wrote on 12/01/16 at 13:09:41:
Sure, Karjakin played well, but to be going home having barely thrown a single punch must be regrettable all the same; what if he never gets another chance?! Maybe if he'd thrown a few punches he would have gotten knocked out, but at least he wouldn't die wondering...


IMO the only people who have a shot at making it through candidates are Caruana, So and Karjakin.

Everyone else cant control their nerves during candidates.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dink Heckler
God Member
*****
Offline


Love-Forty

Posts: 878
Joined: 02/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #142 - 12/01/16 at 13:09:41
Post Tools
Sure, Karjakin played well, but to be going home having barely thrown a single punch must be regrettable all the same; what if he never gets another chance?! Maybe if he'd thrown a few punches he would have gotten knocked out, but at least he wouldn't die wondering...
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IsaVulpes
Senior Member
****
Offline


No.

Posts: 345
Joined: 12/09/07
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #141 - 12/01/16 at 12:49:56
Post Tools
Scarblac wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:25:41:
And the difference between white and black is very small these days, not enough to make up for the draw odds.

I agree on that, which is why I'd strictly see it as an advantage for the champion, rather than selecting it at random.
The champion had to overcome the same hurdle before (theoretically, obviously not for Carlsen now), so him having that advantage for subsequent matches is "fair".

Making it a random decision runs the risk of deciding the match on a coin toss, which is something I'd prefer even the current tiebreak system over.

Your number issue I don't agree with - 13 I don't like if alone because it still feels like too few games, but 15 is imo a pretty nice count both amountwise and aesthetically.

Keano wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:31:29:
Karjakin very unlucky not to win this match IMO.

Why?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2915
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #140 - 12/01/16 at 12:31:29
Post Tools
Karjakin very unlucky not to win this match IMO. But such is life.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scarblac
Full Member
***
Offline


Chess Addict

Posts: 190
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/17/07
Gender: Male
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #139 - 12/01/16 at 12:25:41
Post Tools
Seirawan also proposed that on the Chessbase site, he wants 13 games with the player who has more blacks having draw odds. Without advantages for the champion, just choose at random at the start of the match.

Although it has the advantage that the outcome of the classic time control championship only depends on classic games, I feel 13 and 15 are just ugly amounts of games in a match.

And the difference between white and black is very small these days, not enough to make up for the draw odds.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IsaVulpes
Senior Member
****
Offline


No.

Posts: 345
Joined: 12/09/07
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #138 - 12/01/16 at 12:01:09
Post Tools
Congrats Carlsen! All's well that ends well, but I doubt he will be satisfied with either his overall play or his psychology.

The one thing he sure can be satisfied with are his results out of the opening, which makes this Kasparov-Tweet even more puzzling to me:
https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/804112977213476864
Truly unsure why he'd say that "lack of preparation" of all things was the cause of Carlsen's troubles..

Bibs wrote on 12/01/16 at 11:30:15:
I'd plump for 16, with tie breaks played before, like in karate. Better, draw and current champ retains, like in UFC (see 205).

If there was a going back to "draw means the current champ retain", I'd opt for an uneven amount of games (say 15) with the challenger having an extra White, to balance things out somewhat.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2073
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #137 - 12/01/16 at 11:56:39
Post Tools
RoleyPoley wrote on 12/01/16 at 10:50:56:
I agree it did pay off, but i dont agree that Carlsen is only 'mildly' better than Karjakin. Carlsen can clearly play better, it would be interesting to find out why he thinks he didnt.


Magnus is distinctly better than Karjakin at some things no doubt - winning super tournaments for instance Smiley

Their head to head before the match at classical chess was pretty close though (and very much draw dominated), so the +1,-1,=10 score in classical chess was definitely a plausible enough result a priori.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2338
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #136 - 12/01/16 at 11:30:15
Post Tools
snits wrote on 12/01/16 at 10:08:04:
Susan Polgar's suggestion for changing the format is 8 classical, 8 rapid, 8 blitz. Yuck

https://chessdailynews.com/proposed-change-to-world-championship-format/


To be fair, I've never thought her at all worth paying heed to. And that does not change now.
Noting much discussion online, there seems an overall opinion amongst elite players toward having more games. Regular games. Whether that be 16, or 20, or whatever, it does seem the case currently that one booboo is tough to recover from. Not impossible, as we saw. But tough.
I'd plump for 16, with tie breaks played before, like in karate. Better, draw and current champ retains, like in UFC (see 205).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RoleyPoley
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 741
Location: London
Joined: 12/29/13
Gender: Male
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #135 - 12/01/16 at 10:50:56
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 12/01/16 at 09:51:33:
AJWZ wrote on 12/01/16 at 07:27:46:
Well deserved win for Carlsen. Karjakin's psychological strategy of playing safe (also with White pieces) and waiting for Carlsen's mistakes didn't pay off. 


I'd argue that it quite possibly did pay off quite well - he got very close to winning the match in the end which is objectively a really good result for him.

After all, Carlsen is simply the mildly better all round player and plenty were predicting a much more comfortable Carlsen win.


I agree it did pay off, but i dont agree that Carlsen is only 'mildly' better than Karjakin. Carlsen can clearly play better, it would be interesting to find out why he thinks he didnt.
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RoleyPoley
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 741
Location: London
Joined: 12/29/13
Gender: Male
Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #134 - 12/01/16 at 10:31:59
Post Tools
AJWZ wrote on 12/01/16 at 07:27:46:
Well deserved win for Carlsen. Karjakin's psychological strategy of playing safe (also with White pieces) and waiting for Carlsen's mistakes didn't pay off. Carlsen had an initiative in the match and tried harder to win. Karjakin just didn't do enough to win the match. I'm curious how the possible 2nd match between them would go.


I can only see a second match go in Carlsen's favour. Although Karjakin played well, his play and aims were relatively limited. I can see Carlsen having gears to step up his play, i dont see Karjakin having them - and the latters match strategy is no longer a secret - where as Carlsen has much more scope to vary.

Also,  I think the games played yesterday indicated that Carlsen is much stronger in the quicker time control games, meaning Karjakin has to try harder to win in the classical games....and so isnt going to be able to rely on his defensive style for all those games unless he gets an early win.
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 12
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo