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Poll closed Question: Who will win the 2016 World Championship?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Magnus +3    
  7 (11.5%)
Sergey +3    
  0 (0.0%)
Magnus +1-3 (regulation)    
  44 (72.1%)
Sergey +1-3 (regulation)    
  4 (6.6%)
Tie. Magnus wins the tiebreak    
  4 (6.6%)
Tie. Sergey wins the tiebreak    
  2 (3.3%)
The match goes unfinished...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 61
« Created by: Smyslov_Fan on: 11/08/16 at 08:35:54 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 2016 World Championship Match (Read 105655 times)
ReneDescartes
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #103 - 11/28/16 at 20:03:50
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Guess so. Well no one regarded the Anand-Gelfand or Kramnik-Topalov results as illegitimate. That's partly because the historically better player won. But an Armageddon game might be sufficiently troubling that the tiebreak format would change in the future, even if Carlsen wins it.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #102 - 11/28/16 at 19:55:02
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Yeah, he must prefer his chances in the tiebreak.  Think he has played more rapid events recently than Karjakin has, so he may figure that's the way to go. 

Not to dredge up the old debate, but its one of the downsides of the quick-game tiebreak format; the better blitz player may not press in the classical games because he's happy to head to the tiebreak and take his chances there.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #101 - 11/28/16 at 19:22:38
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So, I guess Carlsen thought that he had better chances of winning the match by resting and preparing for the rapid games?  Any other explanation for today's game?
  
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Knight
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #100 - 11/28/16 at 10:19:27
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Try looking on YouTube live you might be surprised on what they have to offer.
  
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barnaby
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #99 - 11/27/16 at 18:36:00
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Bad scheduling to have this last game fall on a Monday.

Another in a series of poor marketing choices made by the group running this clown show.

I predict the last game will be a draw and the title will be decided by some Armageddon silliness, rendering all the previous good chess between the two as moot and inconsequential.


  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #98 - 11/27/16 at 13:58:48
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I saw Gelfand on Tal Baron's YouTube channel make some fascinating comments. He said (1) Karjakin is still in the driver's seat psychologically, (2) Karjakin did a better job than Carlsen of assessing his own strengths and weaknesses, and (3) Karjakin concluded that he is weaker than Carlsen in sharp positions but not otherwise. Baron also described Karjakin's style, saying the moves surprise him, yet after the fact are seen to maintain maximum flexibility. Gelfand agreed with this description and pointed out Carlsen's amazing ability to see devastating "invisible" moves in complex positions, giving examples from his own games.
« Last Edit: 11/27/16 at 19:25:40 by ReneDescartes »  
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Keano
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #97 - 11/27/16 at 13:44:18
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Well. All down to the last game now.
  
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Keano
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #96 - 11/26/16 at 12:19:23
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I am sure Karjakin would have seen it if he hadn't of went into a 30 min think in an innocuous position earlier. He was in time recovery mode.

Carlsen saw it over the board immediately after he allowed it apparently.

Its a case of putting it all in the past now...
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #95 - 11/25/16 at 20:31:00
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Wesley So seems to suggest that White may even be ever so slightly better after 20...Nxf2+, but maybe it's just hyperbole: https://en.chessbase.com/post/newsblog-wcc-carlsen-karjakin-2016-11-24. 

Edit: This interview seems to clear things up a bit, both players suffered from some blindness it looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YHlLyiU8ps.
  
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Keano
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #94 - 11/25/16 at 19:36:29
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20...Nxf2+ was a forced draw - the attempt to play on is a losing attempt. Carlsen admitted he simply missed it.

Over-all a poor game by both players. Carlsen can be happy with the result, but Karjakin can take comfort in the fact a vintage Carlsen performance still seems very far way...
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #93 - 11/25/16 at 17:46:40
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Gustafsson and Svidler were talking about 20...Nxf2+ but concentrated on 21.Kg1 Nh3+ 22.Kg2 Nhf4+ 23.gf Nxf4 24.Rxf4 ef 25.Nc2, which seems like a better square to me; at least the knight could re-route to f3 from there.  Also 24...Qxf4 seems to be a decent option as well.

I suppose that this is a plausible explanation for not playing 20...Nxf2+, but to my very weak amateur eyes it just looks better for Black.  I haven't fired up the engine to check any lines, but Black has a small material advantage (Rook and 2 pawns vs. 2 Knights) and, more importantly, a fluid pawn structure with almost no weaknesses.  It's hard for me to imagine how White would make progress: perhaps putting the knights on f3 and d3, then Queen on g4 or h5, Rook on g1, and king on h1?  The knights would put pressure on e5 then, but it's incredibly slow and I don't know how White would progress from there. 

The little voice of Nimzovitch in my head really didn't like 20...d5 (or the whole plan leading up to it), as it seemed to me that then only White could be better once queens came off of the board.  I'll be interested to see some good analysis of this game in the future, as it may be showing some gaps in my chess understanding.
« Last Edit: 11/25/16 at 19:09:49 by ErictheRed »  
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RoleyPoley
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #92 - 11/25/16 at 16:12:10
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/25/16 at 05:46:42:
I really can't comment on the psychology of the struggle as I'm not one of the players, and I think that speculating too much about that kind of thing is purely speculation.  I don't know how someone can say that Karjakin is playing the man and not the board, at least not to any larger degree than happens in any match of these stakes.  Karjakin is just playing very good chess. 

I also don't think that it was his strategy to draw as many games as possible in order to get under Carlsen's skin; that seems kind of silly to me.  I think that his match strategy was to play as best as he could, and that's what he's done.  It's not at all inconceivable that Carlsen could have won one or even both of games 3 and 4, in which case I think that we'd be having an entirely differently sort of conversation around here. 

I seriously doubt that it was at all in Karjakin's match strategy to risk defeat and defend such awful positions as those in order to "get under Carlsen's skin," but he played very well and Carlsen clearly became frustrated. 

Also, I can't fathom why Karjakin didn't force a draw in today's game: wasn't 20...Nxf2! obvious and forcing?  Did I miss something?  I didn't see the post mortem, but this seemed to force a draw very easily...clearly the match is taking its toll on both players.  Beautiful chess by Carlsen once the queens came off, though, reminiscent of My System to me.


There was a lot of talk on twitter of the ...Nxf2! move, Rowson wondered whether the following line for white  may have put Karjakin off. I havent looked at it on the board.

Jonathan Rowson ‏@Jonathan_Rowson  17h17 hours ago
It's possible Sergey saw 20...Nxf2+ but felt 21.Kg1 Nh3+ 22.Kg2 Nhf4+ 23.gf Nxf4 24Rxf4 ef 25Nf1 might be better for White?
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

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ReneDescartes
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #91 - 11/25/16 at 14:54:08
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As Black in a match it's not at all unusual to play variations that do not generate particularly great winning chances. The Slav with ...Bg6, the Lasker variation (though Anand won).  I do not mean that Karjakin has not been trying to  win or get better positions in the middlegame, just that he, like Kramnik, has been an extremely effective defender as Black and that really stiff resistance can induce uncertainty and distress, as Alekhine noted of Capablanca before their match.

Of course Karjakin has been trying to win, not draw, with White, but not at the cost of taking many risks.

Magnus does seem to have regained more control of his nerves, and if he comes from behind after this victory to win it will add another dimension to his reputation. But Karjakin has been wonderful.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #90 - 11/25/16 at 08:11:04
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Of course the goal is always to play the best you can, but there is choice of how much risk are you willing to take to play for a win (both with opening choice and with decisions later on in the game). I think Karjakin planned before the match to take very few risks whenever a choice came up, hoping that Carlsen would go too far. But of course I'm just an amateur and I only know these people from the media, so there's that...

According to a Reddit comment, this exchange happened after the game yesterday:
Norwegian TV to Karjakin: "Are you disappointed?"
Karjakin: "No."
Norwegian TV: "Why not?!"
Karjakin: "I only think about chess and not about stupid questions."

Smiley
  
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chk
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #89 - 11/25/16 at 06:55:29
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I think nerves will play a big part now. None of the players seem to be like an "iceman" (liked the epithet above) anymore..
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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