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Poll closed Question: Who will win the 2016 World Championship?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Magnus +3    
  7 (11.5%)
Sergey +3    
  0 (0.0%)
Magnus +1-3 (regulation)    
  44 (72.1%)
Sergey +1-3 (regulation)    
  4 (6.6%)
Tie. Magnus wins the tiebreak    
  4 (6.6%)
Tie. Sergey wins the tiebreak    
  2 (3.3%)
The match goes unfinished...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 61
« Created by: Smyslov_Fan on: 11/08/16 at 08:35:54 »
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 2016 World Championship Match (Read 56163 times)
Keano
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #178 - 12/07/16 at 20:29:08
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RoleyPoley wrote on 12/07/16 at 09:35:09:
To some degree he did.

However, if we say that Magnus won this event without being at his best, which many commentators stated throughout the match, where does that leave Karjakin's performance?


Pretty good, considering the match was a draw.
  
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chk
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #177 - 12/07/16 at 15:14:16
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Within this whole discussion re psychology and/or luck, I think there may be another element at play; not touched by anyone so far:

Carlsen, as a clear favourite before the match, could have felt more psychological pressure to prove that he was the better player. This could be an additional explanation why mostly Carlsen was creating and Karjakin was the one reacting.

Of course other plausible explanations include better opening prep or simply playing the better chess, or individual style or match strategy.

But my point really is that this could have been a very difficult match for Carlsen and most people dismiss this by stating that he was not playing his best chess or that he was a bit relaxed. On the contrary, I think he was under stress.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #176 - 12/07/16 at 09:35:09
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Gerry1970 wrote on 12/06/16 at 10:25:13:
What I took from the "unlucky" comment was that Karjakin came quite close to pulling off an upset. No one else has come that close to Carlsen in a Wch match. He played much better than people expected him to.



To some degree he did.

However, if we say that Magnus won this event without being at his best, which many commentators stated throughout the match, where does that leave Karjakin's performance?
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

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Keano
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #175 - 12/06/16 at 14:05:50
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Yes, I tend to agree with all the recent posts. Sensible stuff!
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #174 - 12/06/16 at 10:25:13
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What I took from the "unlucky" comment was that Karjakin came quite close to pulling off an upset. No one else has come that close to Carlsen in a Wch match. He played much better than people expected him to.

His clock management though in the Rapids seemed very poor I must say.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #173 - 12/06/16 at 09:36:30
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ReneDescartes wrote on 12/06/16 at 01:12:56:
This conversation over luck strikes me as very strange, one of those internet conversations that spiral uncomfortably into some little epicycle of logic.

It seems entirely reasonable to me to say, in a conversational way, that Karjakin was lucky or unlucky, Carlsen was lucky or unlucky. It's a rough but natural way of expressing a variety of impressions.

In a more formal sense, a chess player is always dependent on a certain amount of luck, since non-tablebase entities do not have complete information; it is for them, as Botvinnik wrote, a typical inexact problem. Isn't it?

And in still another sense the chess player bears total responsibility for the outcome--just like a general in war. As Bill Russell replied when Wilt Chamberlain stated that the Lakers had outplayed the Celtics despite the game's outcome, "it seems to me that's why they keep score."

If you mix these and other similar ways of looking at the matter together, you get an argument that goes in circles.

I resemble that comment! Smiley

I mostly wanted to say that if you not playing well is not unlucky, then you not playing well is not unlucky. Surely we can agree on that Smiley (ie if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander)

Then I went on to suggest a simple (approximate) way to cut through this Gordian knot, i.e., that there is no luck in chess, if you play better than your opponent, then nobody is lucky/unlucky.

(internet sophistry begins here, feel free to ignore) Of course there are very many different ways luck can be formulated in chess. What if we had a way of surely knowing that this bishop sacrifice has (taking "everything" into account) a 75% chance of a win and a 25% chance of losing while you can just trade everything down to an obvious draw? Other things (tournament situation etc) being equal, you should sac it and if you lost, you would have a good case to make that you were "unlucky." {Of course, others might say that your initial numbers were in fact wrong, in fact it was 10-90 the other way, and so on.} I think Kasparov had a Google talk where he was talking about this. Just because things go wrong, we shouldn't necessarily "find who is responsible." Maybe the wrong thing that happened was just the way things were meant to be; we built a system that works more often than not, not the perfect system.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #172 - 12/06/16 at 09:03:55
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For those not entirely sure about psychological aspect of the match, including Karjakin's strategy I was talking about, check a psychologist view on the subject:
https://chess24.com/en/read/news/a-psychologist-analyses-carlsen-karjakin

Fragments:
"Karjakin, however, demonstrated that he'd come well-prepared to the World Championship and knew perfectly what he had to do: to defend as no-one else in the world can, so that the pressure of failing to win would begin to weigh on Magnus."

"Game 8. Magnus provoked Sergey on various occasions, attempting to get the game onto "his" territory, but the Russian kept implacably following his own strategy."

"3.      Following a strategy. This is the final ability that we'd like to stress with Karjakin, since he remained faithful to the strategy adopted by himself and his team and in no circumstances deviated from it. They managed to grasp the ways in which they could triumph in the match, both on account of Karjakin's potential and the possible weakness of Magnus. That ability to set out a plan and follow it, without getting distracted by other factors, is truly noteworthy, and came very close to unsettling the World Champion enough to achieve victory."

"It may turn out that emotional and mental control is one area in which Magnus can still improve."

"Karjakin, in turn, demonstrated a certain lack of ambition in some moments of the match, when he could have made the World Champion suffer more. It's possible that in the near future this match might be repeated, and in that case Sergey will have to play with more energy in key moments in order to be able to get the better of his opponent."

I fully agree with the Author.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #171 - 12/06/16 at 01:12:56
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This conversation over luck strikes me as very strange, one of those internet conversations that spiral uncomfortably into some little epicycle of logic.

It seems entirely reasonable to me to say, in a conversational way, that Karjakin was lucky or unlucky, Carlsen was lucky or unlucky. It's a rough but natural way of expressing a variety of impressions.

In a more formal sense, a chess player is always dependent on a certain amount of luck, since non-tablebase entities do not have complete information; it is for them, as Botvinnik wrote, a typical inexact problem. Isn't it?

And in still another sense the chess player bears total responsibility for the outcome--just like a general in war. As Bill Russell replied when Wilt Chamberlain stated that the Lakers had outplayed the Celtics despite the game's outcome, "it seems to me that's why they keep score."

If you mix these and other similar ways of looking at the matter together, you get an argument that goes in circles.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #170 - 12/06/16 at 00:45:58
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/05/16 at 23:17:42:
That doesn't seem to be a very popular opinion; most seem to think that Carlsen played the best chess throughout.


We must have been following different streams. Are you including rapid? I am talking about the main match.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #169 - 12/05/16 at 23:17:42
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Keano wrote on 12/05/16 at 19:25:29:
In general you are bang on. My point is that Karjakin played the best chess...


That doesn't seem to be a very popular opinion; most seem to think that Carlsen played the best chess throughout.
  
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Keano
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #168 - 12/05/16 at 19:25:29
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gwnn wrote on 12/04/16 at 23:18:17:
Didn't you just say that Carlsen was lucky that Karjakin didn't convert in game 9?

"The game he won he allowed Black a forced draw after about 15 moves. That was a critical moment of the whole match. Karjakin for whatever reason uncharecteristically didnt see it, or simply trusted Carlsen too much."

Karjakin mucked up so he lost. He isn't unlucky but rather worse at chess than the counterfactual Karjakin who would have seen the perpetual. I don't see what luck has to do with any of it. The same goes for Carlsen. He wasn't unlucky to lose 8. He made what he thought were calculated risks in pressing for a win and he clearly miscalculated. Not unlucky.


In general you are bang on. My point is that Karjakin played the best chess, as it happened it was only good enough for a 6-6 draw. That can easily happen.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #167 - 12/05/16 at 09:42:55
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gwnn wrote on 12/04/16 at 23:18:17:
Didn't you just say that Carlsen was lucky that Karjakin didn't convert in game 9?

"The game he won he allowed Black a forced draw after about 15 moves. That was a critical moment of the whole match. Karjakin for whatever reason uncharecteristically didnt see it, or simply trusted Carlsen too much."

Karjakin mucked up so he lost. He isn't unlucky but rather worse at chess than the counterfactual Karjakin who would have seen the perpetual. I don't see what luck has to do with any of it. The same goes for Carlsen. He wasn't unlucky to lose 8. He made what he thought were calculated risks in pressing for a win and he clearly miscalculated. Not unlucky.


No-one plays perfect chess everymove, therefore as everyone will make weaker moves during the game, perhaps the element of luck comes into play with regards to when those moves are played?
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #166 - 12/04/16 at 23:18:17
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Didn't you just say that Carlsen was lucky that Karjakin didn't convert in game 9?

"The game he won he allowed Black a forced draw after about 15 moves. That was a critical moment of the whole match. Karjakin for whatever reason uncharecteristically didnt see it, or simply trusted Carlsen too much."

Karjakin mucked up so he lost. He isn't unlucky but rather worse at chess than the counterfactual Karjakin who would have seen the perpetual. I don't see what luck has to do with any of it. The same goes for Carlsen. He wasn't unlucky to lose 8. He made what he thought were calculated risks in pressing for a win and he clearly miscalculated. Not unlucky.
  
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Keano
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #165 - 12/04/16 at 11:07:56
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/02/16 at 21:41:37:
So Karjakin got "lucky" that Carlsen overall didn't play his best, bonus "lucky" that he managed to weasel out in Games 3 and 4 rather than being down 1-3 before the match really started, bonus bonus "lucky" that despite losing almost every single opening battle nothing beyond that happened in the games, bonus bonus bonus "lucky" that Carlsen pushed too much for a win in a position that really didn't call for it, essentially serving him a win on a silver platter ..
.. But he was unlucky not to win the title, because he missed a forced draw in Game 10.

This is a strange interpretation of the proceedings in my eyes?

If anything IMO Karjakin got "lucky" to even land in the position that allowed him that match point in Game10 (and 9), but that too is of course a gross oversimplification of events and considerably downtalking his defensive effort in the games.


Thats a very strange analysis. We should judge the match on its merits. Saying Karjakin was lucky because Carlsen didnt play well is not really logical.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #164 - 12/02/16 at 21:41:37
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So Karjakin got "lucky" that Carlsen overall didn't play his best, bonus "lucky" that he managed to weasel out in Games 3 and 4 rather than being down 1-3 before the match really started, bonus bonus "lucky" that despite losing almost every single opening battle nothing beyond that happened in the games, bonus bonus bonus "lucky" that Carlsen pushed too much for a win in a position that really didn't call for it, essentially serving him a win on a silver platter ..
.. But he was unlucky not to win the title, because he missed a forced draw in Game 10.

This is a strange interpretation of the proceedings in my eyes?

If anything IMO Karjakin got "lucky" to even land in the position that allowed him that match point in Game10 (and 9), but that too is of course a gross oversimplification of events and considerably downtalking his defensive effort in the games.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #163 - 12/02/16 at 20:07:43
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/02/16 at 19:57:29:
I'd be curious to hear your definition of luck, then. 


more like definition of unlucky - "to have something in hand which you lose through random atypical events" just made that up, give me a bit and I will come up with something better  Wink
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #162 - 12/02/16 at 19:57:29
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Keano wrote on 12/02/16 at 19:32:27:
To respond to various here, I said Karjakin was unlucky not to win the match. I stand by that.


I'd be curious to hear your definition of luck, then.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #161 - 12/02/16 at 19:32:27
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To respond to various here, I said Karjakin was unlucky not to win the match. I stand by that. Did he deserve to win it? Obviously not as it didnt happen  Smiley

That said my opinion, and that of various experts also it seems, is that Magnus really did get out of jail in this one. He was one down and making little impression. The game he won he allowed Black a forced draw after about 15 moves. That was a critical moment of the whole match. Karjakin for whatever reason uncharecteristically didnt see it, or simply trusted Carlsen too much.

Over-all though, objectively a draw was a fair result to the match in the end.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #160 - 12/02/16 at 16:32:18
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VKap wrote on 12/02/16 at 16:12:26:
I suspect he will be a big favorite next time. Caruana, So and maybe even Anand IMO will be the only other potential challengers... and Maybe Kramnik.

Everyone else has big problems with nerves.

Even if you think that eg Giri has "big problems with nerves" (for reasons I can't quite follow), it seems rather overeager to me to call that they'd still be there in 2 years time.
Don't think we can call anything at all at this point. MVL climbed up to World #2 this year and wasn't even part of the Candidates; maybe Nepo continues his delayed burst into the Top10 and will be the premier challenger in 2018; maybe the chinese set up a grand new training camp and Ding Liren becomes a real contender, etc etc

The only thing I am reasonably comfortable saying would be that Topalov won't play much of a role in the next cycle, and perhaps with Aronian one can indeed say at this point that he's had his count of tries, but everything else looks very much like unfounded guesswork to me?

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/02/16 at 16:28:33:
Probably including MVL. His name is not mentioned at all during the interview and Nils probably does not know NRK somehow knows he was also a second.

Thanks!
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #159 - 12/02/16 at 16:28:33
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Hi.

IsaVulpes wrote on 12/02/16 at 16:02:56:
Are these "2 extra" including MVL, who is also mentioned in the article? Or MVL and 2 more beyond that?

Probably including MVL. His name is not mentioned at all during the interview and Nils probably does not know NRK somehow knows he was also a second.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #158 - 12/02/16 at 16:12:26
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Scarblac wrote on 12/02/16 at 14:12:11:
Yes, but had Karjakin won game 9, or had game 10 been only a minor advantage for Carlsen and a draw or so, would we then say that the best player had won?


The better player is the one that wins the match.

Karjakin did well, and put Magnus in a situation he never expected to be in.

I suspect he will be a big favorite next time. Caruana, So and maybe even Anand IMO will be the only other potential challengers... and Maybe Kramnik.

Everyone else has big problems with nerves.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #157 - 12/02/16 at 16:02:56
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/02/16 at 15:32:13:
Laurent Fressinet and Nils Grandelius uncovered as Magnus' seconds.
Bossed by Peter Heine Nielsen ofc Smiley.

Also when directly questioned he says that there were more seconds. The phrase he uses is "Ett par stycken till", which is swedish obviously and translates normally into "two more people" or more rarely into "a small amount of more people".

Are these "2 extra" including MVL, who is also mentioned in the article? Or MVL and 2 more beyond that?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #156 - 12/02/16 at 15:32:13
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Hi.

Laurent Fressinet and Nils Grandelius uncovered as Magnus' seconds. (Edit: Maxime Vachier Lagrave as well! Smiley)
Bossed by Peter Heine Nielsen ofc Smiley.

Norsk rikskringkasting (NRK) link:
https://www.nrk.no/sport/dette-er-carlsens-hemmelige-hjelpere-1.13253569
Or google:
Carlsens hemmelige hjelpere

Notice the dozens of softdrink bottles. A sure indicator of hard work and unhealthy habits by the seconds. Basically what Nils says in the interview is that their seconding work went quite well and that they arguably did a better job than team K. Also when directly questioned he says that there were more seconds. The phrase he uses is "Ett par stycken till", which is swedish obviously and translates normally into "two more people" or more rarely into "a small amount of more people".

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #155 - 12/02/16 at 14:12:11
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Yes, but had Karjakin won game 9, or had game 10 been only a minor advantage for Carlsen and a draw or so, would we then say that the best player had won?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #154 - 12/02/16 at 13:50:45
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All in all, it seems to be that Karjakin exceeded expectations. But it hard to make the case that Karjakin deserved to win. Carlsen was not at his best, but he still played better than Karjakin overall. In the end the better player won.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #153 - 12/02/16 at 12:54:28
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That was a good read indeed. Would like to reproduce here one small part that made me laugh:

"Where the million dollar preparation from Team K went remains an enigma. Maybe a whole series of unlucky candidates are going to find this out in March 2018."

oh those unlucky candidates!  Cheesy
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #152 - 12/02/16 at 02:48:30
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Pantu wrote on 12/01/16 at 20:24:30:
ErictheRed wrote on 12/01/16 at 19:52:29:
Keano wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:31:29:
Karjakin very unlucky not to win this match IMO.


I don't think that luck has much to do with it.  And frankly, I think that Karjakin was a bit "lucky" not to lose at least one of games 3 or 4, in which case the match would probably have been the comfortable win for Carlsen that many thought it would be at the start. 

I'm not disparaging Karjakin's incredible defensive performance, but thinking that it was mere luck that kept Karjakin from winning is odd.  It seems more "luck" that he was able to hold those two games than that he was eventually outplayed later; Carlsen was pressing and better in almost every game of this match. 

Frankly as I've said before, much of this talk about Karjakin's "psychological strategy" is nonsense in my opinion, and a direct result of him being able to hold games 3 and 4 in the heat of battle.  There was no psychological strategy involved, but Magnus's failure to convert those games caused him to doubt himself, or think overly negatively about himself, or caused him to overpress later, or whatever else.  We won't know the true story until someone in his camp reveals it to us, but the psychological pressure on Carlsen came from Karjakin defending well on the board, not some imagined psychological strategy.*

It may have been "luck" that Karjakin didn't find a forced drawing line in game 10, but he was entirely, convincingly, beautifully outplayed in that game; I don't know where all this luck stuff is coming from. 


*I'm aware that psychological conditioning and preparation is a part of all sports, but that has more to do with learning to deal with pressure, success, failure, how to avoid distractions, etc.  It's not "Hey, let's defend lifeless positions all match long and make Carlsen get annoyed!"


GM Tisdall for one agrees with you (his previous reports are worth reading as well): http://mattogpatt.no/2016/12/01/happy-birthday-magnus/


Excellent article that I hadn't seen, and I agree with it wholeheartedly!  I'm just going to start linking that instead of responding to people about this match psychology stuff.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #151 - 12/01/16 at 21:57:32
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/01/16 at 19:25:10:
AJZ wrote on 12/01/16 at 07:27:46:
Karjakin's psychological strategy of playing safe (also with White pieces) and waiting for Carlsen's mistakes didn't pay off. 


I really don't think that was Karjakin's "psychological strategy."  He was just playing the best chess he possibly could in accordance with the openings that he knew best.  Any sort of psychological advantage that he had during points of the match came from his excellent defensive play and ability to cash in on Magnus's mistakes when the World Champion overpressed, not any specific match strategy. 

He was just playing very good chess.  It's amazing how much pressure playing well puts on an opponent in any sport.


My theory is that Karjakin's strategy was playing safe (safe is mildly put!) and provoke Carlsen to play overambitious which once paid off. But because Karjakin lost in tiebreaks the whole strategy turned up to be wrong.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #150 - 12/01/16 at 20:39:43
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With regards the tiebreak, I'm slightly in two minds. The "Champion retains the title in the event of a draw in classical games" is fair IMO: the onus is on the challenger to win the match. Fuel to this fire is that in the three tiebreakers held so far the champion* has won all three.  When the challenger topples the champion it's usually over before the last game, and somehow I want a decisive victory.  Making a draw + winning on tiebreaks is not enough to *become* world champion.

As to the tiebreaks: this was introduced mainly due to the impossibility of making Kramnik and Topalov agree on who was the defending champion and the rules were kept going forward. However it was precisely around then that the live video streaming became viable and we have been able to see** the Anand-Gelfand and Carlsen-Karjakin tiebreaks in real time with video**.  This is a huge boon for us fans: Kasparov and Karpov deciding things this way in Seville and everyone finding out the result a day later is not the same (never mind those Botvinnik matches).

So I think the rapid + blitz tiebreak (N.B. all tiebreaks have been decided in the rapid) is a good match for modern times.

*I'm taking Kramnik as the defending champion as he had won a match for the title.

**If you coughed up for Agon. Chess24 covering was sufficient for me, and I think I'd prefer Svidler commenting over anyone else.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #149 - 12/01/16 at 20:24:30
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/01/16 at 19:52:29:
Keano wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:31:29:
Karjakin very unlucky not to win this match IMO.


I don't think that luck has much to do with it.  And frankly, I think that Karjakin was a bit "lucky" not to lose at least one of games 3 or 4, in which case the match would probably have been the comfortable win for Carlsen that many thought it would be at the start. 

I'm not disparaging Karjakin's incredible defensive performance, but thinking that it was mere luck that kept Karjakin from winning is odd.  It seems more "luck" that he was able to hold those two games than that he was eventually outplayed later; Carlsen was pressing and better in almost every game of this match. 

Frankly as I've said before, much of this talk about Karjakin's "psychological strategy" is nonsense in my opinion, and a direct result of him being able to hold games 3 and 4 in the heat of battle.  There was no psychological strategy involved, but Magnus's failure to convert those games caused him to doubt himself, or think overly negatively about himself, or caused him to overpress later, or whatever else.  We won't know the true story until someone in his camp reveals it to us, but the psychological pressure on Carlsen came from Karjakin defending well on the board, not some imagined psychological strategy.*

It may have been "luck" that Karjakin didn't find a forced drawing line in game 10, but he was entirely, convincingly, beautifully outplayed in that game; I don't know where all this luck stuff is coming from. 


*I'm aware that psychological conditioning and preparation is a part of all sports, but that has more to do with learning to deal with pressure, success, failure, how to avoid distractions, etc.  It's not "Hey, let's defend lifeless positions all match long and make Carlsen get annoyed!"


GM Tisdall for one agrees with you (his previous reports are worth reading as well): http://mattogpatt.no/2016/12/01/happy-birthday-magnus/
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #148 - 12/01/16 at 19:55:34
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Dink Heckler wrote on 12/01/16 at 13:09:41:
Sure, Karjakin played well, but to be going home having barely thrown a single punch must be regrettable all the same; what if he never gets another chance?! Maybe if he'd thrown a few punches he would have gotten knocked out, but at least he wouldn't die wondering..


I think Carlsen deserves a lot more credit for allowing his opponents' to throw almost no punches over the course of 3 matches than he's getting. 
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #147 - 12/01/16 at 19:52:29
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Keano wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:31:29:
Karjakin very unlucky not to win this match IMO.


I don't think that luck has much to do with it.  And frankly, I think that Karjakin was a bit "lucky" not to lose at least one of games 3 or 4, in which case the match would probably have been the comfortable win for Carlsen that many thought it would be at the start. 

I'm not disparaging Karjakin's incredible defensive performance, but thinking that it was mere luck that kept Karjakin from winning is odd.  It seems more "luck" that he was able to hold those two games than that he was eventually outplayed later; Carlsen was pressing and better in almost every game of this match. 

Frankly as I've said before, much of this talk about Karjakin's "psychological strategy" is nonsense in my opinion, and a direct result of him being able to hold games 3 and 4 in the heat of battle.  There was no psychological strategy involved, but Magnus's failure to convert those games caused him to doubt himself, or think overly negatively about himself, or caused him to overpress later, or whatever else.  We won't know the true story until someone in his camp reveals it to us, but the psychological pressure on Carlsen came from Karjakin defending well on the board, not some imagined psychological strategy.*

It may have been "luck" that Karjakin didn't find a forced drawing line in game 10, but he was entirely, convincingly, beautifully outplayed in that game; I don't know where all this luck stuff is coming from. 


*I'm aware that psychological conditioning and preparation is a part of all sports, but that has more to do with learning to deal with pressure, success, failure, how to avoid distractions, etc.  It's not "Hey, let's defend lifeless positions all match long and make Carlsen get annoyed!"
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #146 - 12/01/16 at 19:37:54
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:01:09:
The one thing he sure can be satisfied with are his results out of the opening, which makes this Kasparov-Tweet even more puzzling to me:
https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/804112977213476864
Truly unsure why he'd say that "lack of preparation" of all things was the cause of Carlsen's troubles..


He may mean endgame and technical preparation, as well as overall physical preparation (Magnus seemed tired at points during the match).  It's not always about the opening, and Kasparov certainly knows better than anyone how grueling a match like this can be.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #145 - 12/01/16 at 19:25:10
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AJZ wrote on 12/01/16 at 07:27:46:
Karjakin's psychological strategy of playing safe (also with White pieces) and waiting for Carlsen's mistakes didn't pay off. 


I really don't think that was Karjakin's "psychological strategy."  He was just playing the best chess he possibly could in accordance with the openings that he knew best.  Any sort of psychological advantage that he had during points of the match came from his excellent defensive play and ability to cash in on Magnus's mistakes when the World Champion overpressed, not any specific match strategy. 

He was just playing very good chess.  It's amazing how much pressure playing well puts on an opponent in any sport.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #144 - 12/01/16 at 19:05:04
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Keano wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:31:29:
Karjakin very unlucky not to win this match IMO. But such is life.


But was "lucky" in getting the chance to win the WCh in the first place (e.g. Game no. 3).

Also, IsaVulpes commented:
"Congrats Carlsen! All's well that ends well, but I doubt he will be satisfied with either his overall play or his psychology."

But, in his shoes I would have been thrilled to come back from the dead and win this. It showed a different quality that many past champions had demonstrated. Now, nobody can argue about his mental toughness.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #143 - 12/01/16 at 16:35:47
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Dink Heckler wrote on 12/01/16 at 13:09:41:
Sure, Karjakin played well, but to be going home having barely thrown a single punch must be regrettable all the same; what if he never gets another chance?! Maybe if he'd thrown a few punches he would have gotten knocked out, but at least he wouldn't die wondering...


IMO the only people who have a shot at making it through candidates are Caruana, So and Karjakin.

Everyone else cant control their nerves during candidates.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #142 - 12/01/16 at 13:09:41
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Sure, Karjakin played well, but to be going home having barely thrown a single punch must be regrettable all the same; what if he never gets another chance?! Maybe if he'd thrown a few punches he would have gotten knocked out, but at least he wouldn't die wondering...
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #141 - 12/01/16 at 12:49:56
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Scarblac wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:25:41:
And the difference between white and black is very small these days, not enough to make up for the draw odds.

I agree on that, which is why I'd strictly see it as an advantage for the champion, rather than selecting it at random.
The champion had to overcome the same hurdle before (theoretically, obviously not for Carlsen now), so him having that advantage for subsequent matches is "fair".

Making it a random decision runs the risk of deciding the match on a coin toss, which is something I'd prefer even the current tiebreak system over.

Your number issue I don't agree with - 13 I don't like if alone because it still feels like too few games, but 15 is imo a pretty nice count both amountwise and aesthetically.

Keano wrote on 12/01/16 at 12:31:29:
Karjakin very unlucky not to win this match IMO.

Why?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #140 - 12/01/16 at 12:31:29
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Karjakin very unlucky not to win this match IMO. But such is life.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #139 - 12/01/16 at 12:25:41
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Seirawan also proposed that on the Chessbase site, he wants 13 games with the player who has more blacks having draw odds. Without advantages for the champion, just choose at random at the start of the match.

Although it has the advantage that the outcome of the classic time control championship only depends on classic games, I feel 13 and 15 are just ugly amounts of games in a match.

And the difference between white and black is very small these days, not enough to make up for the draw odds.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #138 - 12/01/16 at 12:01:09
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Congrats Carlsen! All's well that ends well, but I doubt he will be satisfied with either his overall play or his psychology.

The one thing he sure can be satisfied with are his results out of the opening, which makes this Kasparov-Tweet even more puzzling to me:
https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/804112977213476864
Truly unsure why he'd say that "lack of preparation" of all things was the cause of Carlsen's troubles..

Bibs wrote on 12/01/16 at 11:30:15:
I'd plump for 16, with tie breaks played before, like in karate. Better, draw and current champ retains, like in UFC (see 205).

If there was a going back to "draw means the current champ retain", I'd opt for an uneven amount of games (say 15) with the challenger having an extra White, to balance things out somewhat.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #137 - 12/01/16 at 11:56:39
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RoleyPoley wrote on 12/01/16 at 10:50:56:
I agree it did pay off, but i dont agree that Carlsen is only 'mildly' better than Karjakin. Carlsen can clearly play better, it would be interesting to find out why he thinks he didnt.


Magnus is distinctly better than Karjakin at some things no doubt - winning super tournaments for instance Smiley

Their head to head before the match at classical chess was pretty close though (and very much draw dominated), so the +1,-1,=10 score in classical chess was definitely a plausible enough result a priori.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #136 - 12/01/16 at 11:30:15
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snits wrote on 12/01/16 at 10:08:04:
Susan Polgar's suggestion for changing the format is 8 classical, 8 rapid, 8 blitz. Yuck

https://chessdailynews.com/proposed-change-to-world-championship-format/


To be fair, I've never thought her at all worth paying heed to. And that does not change now.
Noting much discussion online, there seems an overall opinion amongst elite players toward having more games. Regular games. Whether that be 16, or 20, or whatever, it does seem the case currently that one booboo is tough to recover from. Not impossible, as we saw. But tough.
I'd plump for 16, with tie breaks played before, like in karate. Better, draw and current champ retains, like in UFC (see 205).
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #135 - 12/01/16 at 10:50:56
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MartinC wrote on 12/01/16 at 09:51:33:
AJZ wrote on 12/01/16 at 07:27:46:
Well deserved win for Carlsen. Karjakin's psychological strategy of playing safe (also with White pieces) and waiting for Carlsen's mistakes didn't pay off. 


I'd argue that it quite possibly did pay off quite well - he got very close to winning the match in the end which is objectively a really good result for him.

After all, Carlsen is simply the mildly better all round player and plenty were predicting a much more comfortable Carlsen win.


I agree it did pay off, but i dont agree that Carlsen is only 'mildly' better than Karjakin. Carlsen can clearly play better, it would be interesting to find out why he thinks he didnt.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #134 - 12/01/16 at 10:31:59
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AJZ wrote on 12/01/16 at 07:27:46:
Well deserved win for Carlsen. Karjakin's psychological strategy of playing safe (also with White pieces) and waiting for Carlsen's mistakes didn't pay off. Carlsen had an initiative in the match and tried harder to win. Karjakin just didn't do enough to win the match. I'm curious how the possible 2nd match between them would go.


I can only see a second match go in Carlsen's favour. Although Karjakin played well, his play and aims were relatively limited. I can see Carlsen having gears to step up his play, i dont see Karjakin having them - and the latters match strategy is no longer a secret - where as Carlsen has much more scope to vary.

Also,  I think the games played yesterday indicated that Carlsen is much stronger in the quicker time control games, meaning Karjakin has to try harder to win in the classical games....and so isnt going to be able to rely on his defensive style for all those games unless he gets an early win.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #133 - 12/01/16 at 10:08:04
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Susan Polgar's suggestion for changing the format is 8 classical, 8 rapid, 8 blitz. Yuck

https://chessdailynews.com/proposed-change-to-world-championship-format/
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #132 - 12/01/16 at 09:51:33
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AJZ wrote on 12/01/16 at 07:27:46:
Well deserved win for Carlsen. Karjakin's psychological strategy of playing safe (also with White pieces) and waiting for Carlsen's mistakes didn't pay off. 


I'd argue that it quite possibly did pay off quite well - he got very close to winning the match in the end which is objectively a really good result for him.

After all, Carlsen is simply the mildly better all round player and plenty were predicting a much more comfortable Carlsen win.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #131 - 12/01/16 at 08:42:25
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I think Carlsen deserves it as he pushed more and indeed almost lost the match because of pressing. Karjakin is a very impressive player especially defending difficult positions. But I am not sure how exciting it would have been if we had two Karjakin-type players competing.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #130 - 12/01/16 at 08:05:37
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In terms of match strategy (let's say the 'grand' strategy of the WCh) I think it had a lot of similarities with Anand-Gelfand.

Kudos to both, it had a lot of tension, esp. after the first 2 games.

And of course congrats to the World Champion!
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #129 - 12/01/16 at 07:27:46
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Well deserved win for Carlsen. Karjakin's psychological strategy of playing safe (also with White pieces) and waiting for Carlsen's mistakes didn't pay off. Carlsen had an initiative in the match and tried harder to win. Karjakin just didn't do enough to win the match. I'm curious how the possible 2nd match between them would go.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #128 - 12/01/16 at 01:47:45
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This was the most entertaining and enjoyable world championship match that I've seen in a long time. Kudos to both players, especially Karjakin who proved himself a serious contender when many people wondered whether he really deserved a shot at the title.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #127 - 11/30/16 at 23:56:39
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Happy birthday and congratulations Magnus!! You came from behind and finally ended Karjakin's defensive tour-de-force. It must have felt like writing a gigantic exclamation point on the outcome to lay down a mate in one, on the last move of the match, against this most elusive of defenders.
« Last Edit: 12/01/16 at 03:41:13 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #126 - 11/30/16 at 22:36:43
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Beautiful game 3 by Carlsen, hard to see how we can complain about these games as fans!  Though I'd still rather have a 24 game match and have the tiebreaks decided beforehand.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #125 - 11/30/16 at 21:37:01
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Well, after two drawn tiebreak rapid games, I will say that whoever wins this will deserve it. Carlsen has obtained a long-term advantage, however slight, in nearly every game. And Karjakin has defended with incredible self-possession up to now. Honestly, it could nearly as fairly be decided by a coin toss like Smyslov-Huebner.

On Saturday Gelfand said something beautiful--that on the day of the tiebreaks, the tension and ultimate psychological testing of the players are such that it is Destiny that is really playing.
« Last Edit: 12/01/16 at 03:42:10 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #124 - 11/30/16 at 20:12:49
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snits wrote on 11/30/16 at 19:08:58:
vidler is a fan of the play the tiebreaks before the classical games idea.


That's an interesting idea that I haven't considered before, and I'd be all for it I think!

Keano must be the most dramatic and opinionated chess player I know, and that's saying something! 

I have no problem with Carlsen playing game 12 like he did.  He's trying to win the match, and he should do everything within the rules that he thinks will maximize his chances of winning and minimize his chances of losing, whether that looks exciting or not.  It's like American football teams that purposely take a Safety because they'd rather their opponent gain only 2 points but have poor field position, instead of trying to punt from their own endzone and potentially giving up a touchdown.  Or running very pedestrian offenses to run time off of the clock at the end of a game.  It's just smart match strategy, not unsporting or anything of the sort.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #123 - 11/30/16 at 19:08:58
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Sounds like Svidler is a fan of the play the tiebreaks before the classical games idea.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #122 - 11/30/16 at 18:33:43
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Scarblac wrote on 11/30/16 at 10:39:16:
Also, the wider, non-chess playing public has no idea that some games are more boring than others, they care about the scoreline and that Carlsen walked away angrily from a press conference. The footage of that made world wide news, not any moves.

For the general public the actual chess content, the time control etc are completely irrelevant.

Excellent point. This is probably true, but a bit sad all the same. Not sure much can be done about it.

At least interesting games do matter to those who love the game, to keep us enthralled. And all these enthusiast are just as important for the future of professional chess as current, wider public interest.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #121 - 11/30/16 at 18:17:49
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IsaVulpes wrote on 11/30/16 at 08:20:15:
From what I'm seeing, the Chess WCh is the one(!) thing that still attracts the public about chess - it lands on the front page of various newspapers etc, while the rest of the year every year chess just "doesn't exist".

You're planning to throw away 140 years of history and the most prestigious title in the chess world, to kill off the one thing that the public cares about at all in chess, due to waning public interest. I don't feel like that'd go over too well?

IF there is a problem, then IMO not with the match format, but with classical time controls as a whole - which isn't really a new statement, and might very well be true!
.. But I believe there are many better ways of accomodating that than turning the WCh into a WorldCup-type diceroll.

Well, if everything is fine and there's no problem there's no need to change it, of course. I'm not arguing for change for its own sake, only if the lack of interest and/or exciting chess is seen as a problem (now or in the future).

Sure, the public cares mostly about the world championship, but that could be more because it's the world championship than because it's necessarily a match. Was there really less media interest in the few round-robin championships that have been held (San Luis 2005, Mexico City 2007 and The Hauge/Moscow 1948)? That's my preferred format (not some World Cup style diceroll), because I believe it leads to the most fighting chess. Though there is a price to be paid in terms of randomness/luck that I know many find unacceptable.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #120 - 11/30/16 at 16:11:53
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I seriously doubt if Carlsen was worried about that - Black can't enforce randomness on a chess game without taking huge objective risks, and especially not vs the way Carlsen plays.

I've seen it suggested that he might have been worried about getting into trouble over pressing which does make some sense. He did that twice in the match.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #119 - 11/30/16 at 15:14:23
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Before game 12 Carlsen had to fear that Karjakin would try to reach a position where the outcome is as random as tossing a coin.
This seems very reasonable against a stronger opponent. Carlsen would have no chance to fight back.
To avoid that scenario Carlsen had to revisit carefully his complete 1.e4 repertoire - not an easy task.

On the other hand Karjakin seems to be convinced to be able to compete with Carlsen on equal terms  in the tiebreak.
So from his point of view he had no reason to take any risks with black in game 12.

Therefore game 12 appears completely logical to me and no contestant is to blame.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #118 - 11/30/16 at 13:48:23
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I'm all for maintaining 140 years of tradition. However, the same tradition dictates that the players shall compete for a pittance or the opportunity to get their dacha upgraded. If they want to play for serious money, they need to bend to the prerogatives of the commercial age, and that means putting on a show.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #117 - 11/30/16 at 11:40:35
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Scarblac wrote on 11/30/16 at 10:35:56:
...

The rapid tiebreak should be played before the match, then there's always one side that has to avoid the tie, and as a way to get things going I like rapid games better than the cautious draws in a sideline that seem traditional now...


This has been proposed in the past and somehow I had forgotten about it. It sounded reasonable back then and also now. It is a logical, good idea!
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #116 - 11/30/16 at 10:39:16
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Also, the wider, non-chess playing public has no idea that some games are more boring than others, they care about the scoreline and that Carlsen walked away angrily from a press conference. The footage of that made world wide news, not any moves.

For the general public the actual chess content, the time control etc are completely irrelevant.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #115 - 11/30/16 at 10:35:56
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I don't see the bigger public interest for rapid chess. Lots of chess players follow classical supertournaments online, not as many follow the big rapid tournaments.

The rapid tiebreak should be played before the match, then there's always one side that has to avoid the tie, and as a way to get things going I like rapid games better than the cautious draws in a sideline that seem traditional now.

I thought this match was mostly fine, apart from Carlsen's disappointing white repertoire.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #114 - 11/30/16 at 08:20:15
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Stigma wrote on 11/30/16 at 00:21:27:
It would be ironic if the chess world conservatively clings to the classical match format even if public and commercial interest in it dwindles away.

Does it?

From what I'm seeing, the Chess WCh is the one(!) thing that still attracts the public about chess - it lands on the front page of various newspapers etc, while the rest of the year every year chess just "doesn't exist".

You're planning to throw away 140 years of history and the most prestigious title in the chess world, to kill off the one thing that the public cares about at all in chess, due to waning public interest. I don't feel like that'd go over too well?

IF there is a problem, then IMO not with the match format, but with classical time controls as a whole - which isn't really a new statement, and might very well be true!
.. But I believe there are many better ways of accomodating that than turning the WCh into a WorldCup-type diceroll.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #113 - 11/30/16 at 00:21:27
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IM Atle Grønn speculates that Magnus may have had a hidden agenda: To demonstrate that the classical, long time control world championship match is out of date and thus force changes to promote more exciting chess:

https://www.nrk.no/sport/mener-carlsen-tar-_en-northug__-_-vil-endre-sjakksporte...

I doubt this personally; he could just have been too tired to take a lot of risk in game 12. But Magnus is on record wanting a tournament format instead, and I don't think this debate is going away. It would be ironic if the chess world conservatively clings to the classical match format even if public and commercial interest in it dwindles away.

I don't see why a suitable tournament can't be used to crown the champion: Lots of sports do it that way and live just fine with the increased randomness it leads to. The candidates' tournaments are already the chess world's most exciting product.

Having said that, this match has had its share of interesting and nerve-wracking games; more than I expected from such solid and defensively skilled players. The players' individual style really matters.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #112 - 11/29/16 at 22:13:39
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ReneDescartes wrote on 11/29/16 at 19:29:21:
I disagree. I regard the outcome of Gelfand-Anand and Kramnik-Topalov as legitimate. I would greatly prefer a 24-game match with the champion retaining the title, or some kind of sudden-death classical continuation, but the rapid games are at least chess.

The sponsor and participants define the incentives. What the players do to try to win the match given those incentives is not a slap in the face to anyone, but what happens in an actual fight on this earth.

If Carlsen wins, he will have done what all the champions who have ever successfully defended their titles--Steinitz, Lasker, Petrosian, Kasparov, Karpov, Kramnik, and Anand--did before him in their careers: come from behind to win a grueling, prolonged fight.


Nice spin!

There was nothing grueling about that 12th game and there should have been.

~ 24 games.  Winner takes the entire purse, Champion keeps the crown on a tie.

If no one wants to step up to challenge, for lack of incentive for losing, then that alone speaks volumes to how little people need a chess champion anyway.




  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #111 - 11/29/16 at 21:22:43
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Not bothered with it. For me its irrelevant and I wont even be watching.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #110 - 11/29/16 at 19:29:21
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I disagree. I regard the outcome of Gelfand-Anand and Kramnik-Topalov as legitimate. I would greatly prefer a 24-game match with the champion retaining the title, or some kind of sudden-death classical continuation, but the rapid games are at least chess.

The sponsor and participants define the incentives. What the players do to try to win the match given those incentives is not a slap in the face to anyone, but what happens in an actual fight on this earth.

If Carlsen wins, he will have done what all the champions who have ever successfully defended their titles--Steinitz, Lasker, Petrosian, Kasparov, Karpov, Kramnik, and Anand--did before him in their careers: come from behind to win a grueling, prolonged fight.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #109 - 11/29/16 at 17:28:12
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LeeRoth wrote on 11/28/16 at 22:34:53:
barnaby wrote on 11/27/16 at 18:36:00:
Bad scheduling to have this last game fall on a Monday.

Another in a series of poor marketing choices made by the group running this clown show.



So true, but, as chess fans, I think we need to be rooting for Agon to succeed.  If Agon drops out because it can't make a profit off the world championship, where are we going to find an organizer/sponsor for the next one?  Huh    


Not only did I root for their success I also paid the fee to watch the games even though I ended up watching Svidler on Chess24 instead.

I have done what I could to support chess for 40+ years including enticing all of my kids to play at high levels.

Sadly, there is not much to support anymore.

The entire format of the championship is flawed.  By setting it up to have the shorter games it means there really is no reason to have the longer games anymore.  They have become fully moot.  No new ideas shown, no novelties. 

The players (like Gelfand-Anand) wait until the short time controls to try to exploit any information gap and why not?  Doing otherwise is strategically unsound.

So, for me its no longer chess so much as who gets the other player in one short time control game into one unknown position and exploits the fact that they have not yet found this line on their own engine.  Greg Shahade should feel very happy at this! (and maybe he is right).

It's more like a detective competition at this point than a chess match and as such no Chess site should be foolish enough to put any money into this.

" I think what we got on our hands is a dead shark."  ~ Alvy Singer

  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #108 - 11/29/16 at 15:40:55
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LeeRoth wrote on 11/28/16 at 22:34:53:
If Agon drops out because it can't make a profit off the world championship, where are we going to find an organizer/sponsor for the next one?  Huh    


I feel that the major chess websites (e.g. Chess24, Chess.com, others) should organize it together.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #107 - 11/29/16 at 14:40:41
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LeeRoth wrote on 11/28/16 at 22:34:53:
barnaby wrote on 11/27/16 at 18:36:00:
Bad scheduling to have this last game fall on a Monday.

Another in a series of poor marketing choices made by the group running this clown show.



So true, but, as chess fans, I think we need to be rooting for Agon to succeed.  If Agon drops out because it can't make a profit off the world championship, where are we going to find an organizer/sponsor for the next one?  Huh    


If the players aren't prepared to fight, the sponsor won't succeed; it's that simple. Serving up games like game 12 is a slap in the face of any sponsor. If the players aren't making the $$ they think they deserve, they should look at themselves first.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #106 - 11/29/16 at 12:40:18
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complete disgrace that was.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #105 - 11/28/16 at 22:34:53
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barnaby wrote on 11/27/16 at 18:36:00:
Bad scheduling to have this last game fall on a Monday.

Another in a series of poor marketing choices made by the group running this clown show.



So true, but, as chess fans, I think we need to be rooting for Agon to succeed.  If Agon drops out because it can't make a profit off the world championship, where are we going to find an organizer/sponsor for the next one?  Huh    
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #104 - 11/28/16 at 20:24:51
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It probably makes sense from a match standpoint; Magnus outrates Karjakin by more points in Rapid and Blitz than he does in Classical time controls.  Also, there's greater margin for error on his side in the 4-game Rapid match, whereas pressing too hard here could cost the entire match. 

Still, bit of a disappointment.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #103 - 11/28/16 at 20:03:50
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Guess so. Well no one regarded the Anand-Gelfand or Kramnik-Topalov results as illegitimate. That's partly because the historically better player won. But an Armageddon game might be sufficiently troubling that the tiebreak format would change in the future, even if Carlsen wins it.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #102 - 11/28/16 at 19:55:02
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Yeah, he must prefer his chances in the tiebreak.  Think he has played more rapid events recently than Karjakin has, so he may figure that's the way to go. 

Not to dredge up the old debate, but its one of the downsides of the quick-game tiebreak format; the better blitz player may not press in the classical games because he's happy to head to the tiebreak and take his chances there.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #101 - 11/28/16 at 19:22:38
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So, I guess Carlsen thought that he had better chances of winning the match by resting and preparing for the rapid games?  Any other explanation for today's game?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #100 - 11/28/16 at 10:19:27
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Try looking on YouTube live you might be surprised on what they have to offer.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #99 - 11/27/16 at 18:36:00
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Bad scheduling to have this last game fall on a Monday.

Another in a series of poor marketing choices made by the group running this clown show.

I predict the last game will be a draw and the title will be decided by some Armageddon silliness, rendering all the previous good chess between the two as moot and inconsequential.


  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #98 - 11/27/16 at 13:58:48
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I saw Gelfand on Tal Baron's YouTube channel make some fascinating comments. He said (1) Karjakin is still in the driver's seat psychologically, (2) Karjakin did a better job than Carlsen of assessing his own strengths and weaknesses, and (3) Karjakin concluded that he is weaker than Carlsen in sharp positions but not otherwise. Baron also described Karjakin's style, saying the moves surprise him, yet after the fact are seen to maintain maximum flexibility. Gelfand agreed with this description and pointed out Carlsen's amazing ability to see devastating "invisible" moves in complex positions, giving examples from his own games.
« Last Edit: 11/27/16 at 19:25:40 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #97 - 11/27/16 at 13:44:18
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Well. All down to the last game now.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #96 - 11/26/16 at 12:19:23
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I am sure Karjakin would have seen it if he hadn't of went into a 30 min think in an innocuous position earlier. He was in time recovery mode.

Carlsen saw it over the board immediately after he allowed it apparently.

Its a case of putting it all in the past now...
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #95 - 11/25/16 at 20:31:00
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Wesley So seems to suggest that White may even be ever so slightly better after 20...Nxf2+, but maybe it's just hyperbole: https://en.chessbase.com/post/newsblog-wcc-carlsen-karjakin-2016-11-24. 

Edit: This interview seems to clear things up a bit, both players suffered from some blindness it looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YHlLyiU8ps.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #94 - 11/25/16 at 19:36:29
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20...Nxf2+ was a forced draw - the attempt to play on is a losing attempt. Carlsen admitted he simply missed it.

Over-all a poor game by both players. Carlsen can be happy with the result, but Karjakin can take comfort in the fact a vintage Carlsen performance still seems very far way...
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #93 - 11/25/16 at 17:46:40
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Gustafsson and Svidler were talking about 20...Nxf2+ but concentrated on 21.Kg1 Nh3+ 22.Kg2 Nhf4+ 23.gf Nxf4 24.Rxf4 ef 25.Nc2, which seems like a better square to me; at least the knight could re-route to f3 from there.  Also 24...Qxf4 seems to be a decent option as well.

I suppose that this is a plausible explanation for not playing 20...Nxf2+, but to my very weak amateur eyes it just looks better for Black.  I haven't fired up the engine to check any lines, but Black has a small material advantage (Rook and 2 pawns vs. 2 Knights) and, more importantly, a fluid pawn structure with almost no weaknesses.  It's hard for me to imagine how White would make progress: perhaps putting the knights on f3 and d3, then Queen on g4 or h5, Rook on g1, and king on h1?  The knights would put pressure on e5 then, but it's incredibly slow and I don't know how White would progress from there. 

The little voice of Nimzovitch in my head really didn't like 20...d5 (or the whole plan leading up to it), as it seemed to me that then only White could be better once queens came off of the board.  I'll be interested to see some good analysis of this game in the future, as it may be showing some gaps in my chess understanding.
« Last Edit: 11/25/16 at 19:09:49 by ErictheRed »  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #92 - 11/25/16 at 16:12:10
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/25/16 at 05:46:42:
I really can't comment on the psychology of the struggle as I'm not one of the players, and I think that speculating too much about that kind of thing is purely speculation.  I don't know how someone can say that Karjakin is playing the man and not the board, at least not to any larger degree than happens in any match of these stakes.  Karjakin is just playing very good chess. 

I also don't think that it was his strategy to draw as many games as possible in order to get under Carlsen's skin; that seems kind of silly to me.  I think that his match strategy was to play as best as he could, and that's what he's done.  It's not at all inconceivable that Carlsen could have won one or even both of games 3 and 4, in which case I think that we'd be having an entirely differently sort of conversation around here. 

I seriously doubt that it was at all in Karjakin's match strategy to risk defeat and defend such awful positions as those in order to "get under Carlsen's skin," but he played very well and Carlsen clearly became frustrated. 

Also, I can't fathom why Karjakin didn't force a draw in today's game: wasn't 20...Nxf2! obvious and forcing?  Did I miss something?  I didn't see the post mortem, but this seemed to force a draw very easily...clearly the match is taking its toll on both players.  Beautiful chess by Carlsen once the queens came off, though, reminiscent of My System to me.


There was a lot of talk on twitter of the ...Nxf2! move, Rowson wondered whether the following line for white  may have put Karjakin off. I havent looked at it on the board.

Jonathan Rowson ‏@Jonathan_Rowson  17h17 hours ago
It's possible Sergey saw 20...Nxf2+ but felt 21.Kg1 Nh3+ 22.Kg2 Nhf4+ 23.gf Nxf4 24Rxf4 ef 25Nf1 might be better for White?
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #91 - 11/25/16 at 14:54:08
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As Black in a match it's not at all unusual to play variations that do not generate particularly great winning chances. The Slav with ...Bg6, the Lasker variation (though Anand won).  I do not mean that Karjakin has not been trying to  win or get better positions in the middlegame, just that he, like Kramnik, has been an extremely effective defender as Black and that really stiff resistance can induce uncertainty and distress, as Alekhine noted of Capablanca before their match.

Of course Karjakin has been trying to win, not draw, with White, but not at the cost of taking many risks.

Magnus does seem to have regained more control of his nerves, and if he comes from behind after this victory to win it will add another dimension to his reputation. But Karjakin has been wonderful.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #90 - 11/25/16 at 08:11:04
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Of course the goal is always to play the best you can, but there is choice of how much risk are you willing to take to play for a win (both with opening choice and with decisions later on in the game). I think Karjakin planned before the match to take very few risks whenever a choice came up, hoping that Carlsen would go too far. But of course I'm just an amateur and I only know these people from the media, so there's that...

According to a Reddit comment, this exchange happened after the game yesterday:
Norwegian TV to Karjakin: "Are you disappointed?"
Karjakin: "No."
Norwegian TV: "Why not?!"
Karjakin: "I only think about chess and not about stupid questions."

Smiley
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #89 - 11/25/16 at 06:55:29
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I think nerves will play a big part now. None of the players seem to be like an "iceman" (liked the epithet above) anymore..
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #88 - 11/25/16 at 05:46:42
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I really can't comment on the psychology of the struggle as I'm not one of the players, and I think that speculating too much about that kind of thing is purely speculation.  I don't know how someone can say that Karjakin is playing the man and not the board, at least not to any larger degree than happens in any match of these stakes.  Karjakin is just playing very good chess. 

I also don't think that it was his strategy to draw as many games as possible in order to get under Carlsen's skin; that seems kind of silly to me.  I think that his match strategy was to play as best as he could, and that's what he's done.  It's not at all inconceivable that Carlsen could have won one or even both of games 3 and 4, in which case I think that we'd be having an entirely differently sort of conversation around here. 

I seriously doubt that it was at all in Karjakin's match strategy to risk defeat and defend such awful positions as those in order to "get under Carlsen's skin," but he played very well and Carlsen clearly became frustrated. 

Also, I can't fathom why Karjakin didn't force a draw in today's game: wasn't 20...Nxf2! obvious and forcing?  Did I miss something?  I didn't see the post mortem, but this seemed to force a draw very easily...clearly the match is taking its toll on both players.  Beautiful chess by Carlsen once the queens came off, though, reminiscent of My System to me.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #87 - 11/25/16 at 02:23:13
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I wonder if this victory brings Carlsen back up to "clear favourite" status?

Was the first game in the entire match that really looked like Carlsen play, his frustration over game 3/4 should have dissipated, and in general the psychological up is on his side now.

There now being a rest day certainly doesn't help Karjakin either, mh..
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #86 - 11/24/16 at 11:29:18
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GabrielGale wrote on 11/24/16 at 09:54:36:
There is a bit of Botvinnik here in the return match with Tal ......  Wink

Carlsen just came out of the hospital and is playing with half a kidney?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #85 - 11/24/16 at 09:54:36
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I have to say, albeit very reluctantly as I am not fan of Sergey Karjakin and the strategy, but he and his team has the better match strategy, especially the psychology. Sergey is playing the man, not the board and it is proving very effective.
Magnus Carlsen has established that his team got very complacent after defeating Anand twice. They have not prepared Magnus psychologically.

There is a bit of Botvinnik here in the return match with Tal ......  Wink

Hmmmmmm! perhaps the Carlsen Camp needs to read the classic Sun Tzu's Art of War.  Wink
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #84 - 11/24/16 at 09:40:36
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Yes, Karjakin seems like the ice-man and Carlsen has been fidgeting about and pulling a lot of faces in this match.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #83 - 11/24/16 at 09:03:20
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What I find most surprising in this match is that Karjakin has apparently managed to get under Carlsen's skin _so soon_; it was obvious beforehand that a long string of draws would be Karjakin's goal, hoping to unsettle Carlsen. If Carlsen has a weakness, it's his mental state (e.g. qualifying from the Candidates by losing in the last round in a must-win situation, because Kramnik did the same). Apparently Carlsen wasn't able to prepare for that scenario sufficiently.

On the other hand, Carlsen's style has always been to go for quiet positions and then just relentlessly play them for a win when everybody else only sees draw or risk, so maybe Karjakin is just playing extremely good chess to resist all those tries, and Carlsen is just somewhat below his top level.

And Karjakin has been incredibly calm and stable so far, that's something he is better than Carlsen at.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #82 - 11/24/16 at 08:55:51
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@EricTheRed: I suppose the organisations doing the individual interviews paid for that privilege; having them after the full press conference makes the interviews worth less.

There was also a Norwegian live TV crew waiting for Magnus, and if he had talked to them, he wouldn't be in the press conference room on his own in the first place. But he ran past them in anger, so that he had to wait was his own fault.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #81 - 11/23/16 at 22:38:50
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Well, watching live after ...Ne7?? - Karjakin suddenly looks a huge favourite after Qb3 or Bxf7+... and the way Carlsen seems to be mentally and in his play, I think +2 with 3 games remaining could be goodnight Oslo and the start of the reign of a new World Champion.

Safe to say, from the poll, that very few were expecting this. The way Carlsen has played and taken risks, I think he was expecting it less than most...

Still, this game isn't over... I could have egg on my face come tomorrow!
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #80 - 11/23/16 at 16:30:31
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I realize that the procedure for the press conferences must have been agreed upon by the players, but it seems like a very bad idea to have a system where one player must wait for the other for a length of time.  Why not start with the joint press conference and then do individual interviews? 

It must be very difficult to keep up your motivation and energy once you've already become World Champion; what more do you have to achieve?  Hence Kasparov's greatness for remaining at the top so long.  Perhaps this loss will be the motivation that Carlsen needs to rekindle the fire?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #79 - 11/23/16 at 15:57:17
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I don't know. Karjakin reminds me of Lasse Viren, the great runner who was not the fastest day-in, day-out, but who was one of the great peakers who with incredible discipline would save his energy over the months and years and before the crucial occasion release it to quite consciously become stronger than the others. When Karjakin was second to Anand in the previous Candidates', I suspected he would win this one. If he wins here, he will be a worthy champion! And if he loses, a worthy challenger!

Karjakin's self-possession is magnificent. He has left Carlsen just desperate to crack his Black wall. (In Kramnik-Kasparov 2001 everyone talked about Kramnik's Berlin opening, which was indeed seminal, but it was his accuracy in worse positions once he got the Berlin endgames that won him the title. Kramnik tied Fischer-Petrosian for the greatest performance since Capablanca in Regan's Intrinsic Performance Rating analysis).

Game 3 was crucial and shook Magnus to the core. I for one regard a lot of the subsequent errors as induced. Since that game, Magnus' nerves have been deteriorating before our eyes. Karjakin is literally driving Carlsen out of his mind: https://twitter.com/Jason_AW/status/800806689314406400?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw (This is already cruel, but I am presuming here that Carlsen's mental health is fundamentally sound. If not, may God forgive me).

I am not saying that Magnus will lose, but that Karjakin is in no way inferior to the champion as a force of nature--he just has his own, different, set of weapons, including both talent and character.
« Last Edit: 11/23/16 at 19:14:11 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #78 - 11/23/16 at 13:49:33
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/23/16 at 08:49:58:
If Karajakin wins, will he be (relatively) the weakest World Champion ever (if you don't count those FIDE KO winners)? He has been hovering around 10th in the rating list for a long time now, although, to be fair, a victory here will almost certainly alter that.


I dare to say that todays 2700+ players play better chess than the first worldchampions.
But in relative strenth you are right.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #77 - 11/23/16 at 10:55:29
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/23/16 at 08:49:58:
If Karajakin wins, will he be (relatively) the weakest World Champion ever (if you don't count those FIDE KO winners)?


The Sonas site has Botvinnik dropping out of the top ten briefly during Tal's reign as World Champion.

http://www.chessmetrics.com/cm/CM2/SingleMonth.asp?Params=199510SSSSS3S015154196...

It also has Petrosian dropping to tenth shortly before the 1968 Olympiad where he regained his top 5 status.

http://www.chessmetrics.com/cm/CM2/SingleMonth.asp?Params=199510SSSSS3S100509196...
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #76 - 11/23/16 at 08:49:58
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If Karajakin wins, will he be (relatively) the weakest World Champion ever (if you don't count those FIDE KO winners)? He has been hovering around 10th in the rating list for a long time now, although, to be fair, a victory here will almost certainly alter that.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #75 - 11/22/16 at 23:05:52
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Karjakin is looking good with just 4 games to go.  But anything can still happen.  There's been plenty of times where the world champion's been down a point and come back to tie/win the match.  Thinking primarily about the incredible last round wins by Kasparov v. Karpov and Kramnik v. Leko, but Kramnik also came back vs. Topalov to force a tiebreaker, and, iirc, Anand broke back after Gelfand was the first to score in their match.  Not saying the same thing will or won't happen here; all we can do is wait and see how the rest goes! 
      
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #74 - 11/22/16 at 22:43:46
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Keano wrote on 11/22/16 at 00:56:39:
Cannot believe the lack of objectivity and risk in Carlsens play today.
It has been coming though, doent look himself.
                   


Yes, I have to agree, some of his moves were almost shocking, as though he thought his opponent was so weak he would blunder, or as if it was a last round game where he had to win at all costs just to get a prize.
His play has been way below his usual level, in my opinion.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #73 - 11/22/16 at 21:47:43
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Keano wrote on 11/22/16 at 19:23:15:
If Carlsen regains his composure and stops the reckless stuff, he is easily capable of getting +1 against Karjakin in a 4 game.


I would argue about the *easily* part! He is capable of such feat though, we have agreement there.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #72 - 11/22/16 at 19:23:15
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I would put Karjakin favourite now, but not by much.

If Carlsen regains his composure and stops the reckless stuff he is easily capable of getting +1 against Karjakin in a 4 game mini-match, which will bring us to the horror of a play-off.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #71 - 11/22/16 at 19:07:53
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It suddenly gets very interesting (more so than some of the chess itself has been so far)... someone mentioned earlier that everything that Karjakin does well, Carlsen does even better.

We now have the corollary to that; everything that Carlsen relies on, Karjakin is possibly (debatably, at least) the next best in the world at doing - defending and grinding. So, given that Carlsen is unlikely to suddenly whip up a Tal-like storm on the board, and Karjakin so far has proved adept at blunting slightly promising positions... there's a chance that a lot of respondees to this poll might start to look a little daft!  Grin

Will be interesting to see if Carlsen continues his policy of taking risks and overpressing like in game 8... he kind of needs to now!
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #70 - 11/22/16 at 18:52:52
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MartinC wrote on 11/22/16 at 16:40:29:
... we all know just how uniquely awful it feels to lose to someone who is doing 'nothing' by beating yourself...


how true (x2)
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #69 - 11/22/16 at 17:17:36
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GabrielGale wrote on 11/22/16 at 02:41:56:
This is just an opinion, so don't flame me: IMHO, Sergey Karjakin did not win the game today but Magnus lost the game.


This is only partially true: when Magnus overpressed, Sergey first defended reasonably well with both sides being short on time (despite playing 37.-Qd3? instead of 37.-Qa4!) then correctly evaluated 48.-Nd3 when 48.-Nxe4 would be a forced draw.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #68 - 11/22/16 at 16:40:29
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You can understand it though - we all know just how uniquely awful it feels to lose to someone who is doing 'nothing' by beating yourself, so the prospect of losing an entire world championship like that? Yikes.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #67 - 11/22/16 at 15:31:29
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Just some extra drama for the spectators, this sort of thing has become the norm in sport, hasn't it?  Or more likely it's always been this way.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #66 - 11/22/16 at 13:02:21
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Keano wrote on 11/22/16 at 12:39:49:
I would be also, in fact the whole press conference thing I find a joke and could do without it completely.

But the point is its there and he is contractually obliged to honour the requests of the sponsors and organizers. Anand had to suffer it after some painful losses. If he didnt agree with it then he shouldnt have signed the contract. As it is he made no friends at all. It wasnt just simply not turning up but his behaviour and lack of class, he behaved like a spoiled brat to be frank.


Agreed. Very poor behavior. Minimally he should have excused himself before walking off. It was just so rude. It will be interesting to see how he develops in this regard down the road. And also how he recovers, if he does, in his play in the next few games.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #65 - 11/22/16 at 12:44:50
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I was surprised he was even expected to be there; usually for these press conference talk somethings indeed only the winner arrives and it's just both players in case of a draw.

It certainly still looked rather rude, but I do think this rule is.. stupid, to put it mildly.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #64 - 11/22/16 at 12:39:49
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Gerry1970 wrote on 11/22/16 at 12:35:50:
I agree that it is somewhat savage to have these joint conferences in an individual sport. In football for example the center-half,the captain, might be interviewed but he knows that it was really the goalkeeper that screwed up. The interview won't necessarily be harping on about his individual mistakes. For a chess player there is no escape.

I would be fine with seeing separate conferences.



I would be also, in fact the whole press conference thing I find a joke and could do without it completely.

But the point is its there and he is contractually obliged to honour the requests of the sponsors and organizers. Anand had to suffer it after some painful losses. If he didnt agree with it then he shouldnt have signed the contract. As it is he made no friends at all. It wasnt just simply not turning up but his behaviour and lack of class, he behaved like a spoiled brat to be frank.


  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #63 - 11/22/16 at 12:35:50
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ReneDescartes wrote on 11/22/16 at 12:09:38:
It looked to me like he was on the verge of tears and wasn't willing to weep or lose his composure in public. Insisting on the institution of the press conference becomes a sadistic ritual after such a devastating game. Like being asked "how does feel now that you've been fired and your wife has left you on the same day?" A human being needs privacy in such situations. Sportsmanship concerns one's bearing with respect to the opponent, not the press or the sponsor or the public slavering for some juicy suffering on a  post-game reality show. Let him pay the fine-it's worth it to keep grief private.

He said or did nothing rude to Karjakin, and nothing to indicate he wanted to deny or belittle or take revenge off the board for what had happened. There's a big difference between this and what a Korchnoi or a Nakamura does.


I agree that it is somewhat savage to have these joint conferences in an individual sport. In football for example the center-half,the captain, might be interviewed but he knows that it was really the goalkeeper that screwed up. The interview won't necessarily be harping on about his individual mistakes. For a chess player there is no escape.

I would be fine with seeing separate conferences.

  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #62 - 11/22/16 at 12:24:10
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Gerry1970 wrote on 11/22/16 at 11:43:40:
Surely the two should arrive to the press conference at the same time? I understand it is very poor behavior on his part. But hardly nice to have to sit there and wait for the other player. Seems poor on the part of the organizers. Interviews on the side could happen afterwards.


The reason Magnus was waiting is that he skipped the other interviews with the reporters also - he didnt even acknowledge the Norwegian reporter. As even his fellow countryman Jon Ludwig Hammer pointed out - 2 wrongs dont make a right.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #61 - 11/22/16 at 12:09:38
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It looked to me like he was on the verge of tears and wasn't willing to weep or lose his composure in public. Insisting on the institution of the press conference becomes a sadistic ritual after such a devastating game. Like being asked "how does it feel now that you've been fired and your wife has left you on the same day?" A human being needs privacy in such situations. Sportsmanship concerns one's bearing with respect to the opponent, not the press or the sponsor or the public slavering for some juicy suffering on a  post-game reality show. Let him pay the fine--it's worth it to keep grief private.

He said or did nothing rude to Karjakin, and nothing to indicate he wanted to deny or belittle or take revenge off the board for what had happened. There's a big difference between this and what a Korchnoi or a Nakamura does.
« Last Edit: 11/22/16 at 15:33:22 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #60 - 11/22/16 at 11:43:40
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Surely the two should arrive to the press conference at the same time? I understand it is very poor behavior on his part. But hardly nice to have to sit there and wait for the other player. Seems poor on the part of the organizers. Interviews on the side could happen afterwards.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #59 - 11/22/16 at 11:00:39
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Agree with Keano. Sore loser, ask yourself this: would Karjakin have skipped the press conference if he had lost this game? I don't think so. On the official commentary they said Magnus would be docked a % of his prize winnings for not staying.

Fyi, Karjakin was being interviewed by one of the studio interviewers. In the official commentary, it shows the same girl ask Magnus if he would give a brief interview, he storms past her not saying anything, pretty rude. That's the person Karjakin was giving an interview with before he got to the press conference.

Can view Magnus' poor sportsmanship here if you haven't seen it yet: youtube.com/watch?v=WR-4_ouXUV4
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #58 - 11/22/16 at 09:50:05
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Magnus lost a lot of friends by his lack of sportsmanship after the game.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #57 - 11/22/16 at 03:23:59
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If he can find that extra well of strength that Karpov (vs.Korchnoi 1978), Kasparov, and Kramnik had, he will prove himself great in an even deeper way than he already has.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #56 - 11/22/16 at 03:14:06
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RoleyPoley wrote on 11/21/16 at 17:14:13:
Are Karjakin's defensive abilities really that remarkable? Has Carlsen had that much of an attack going in these games?


My amateur eye thinks yes, he found two very impressive draws when I surely thought that Magnus would pull in the full point.  Of course I can't really judge.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #55 - 11/22/16 at 02:41:56
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GabrielGale wrote on 11/21/16 at 10:59:42:
The nearer we get to game 11 and 12, and the fact that Sergey Karjakin has been preparing for months and yet the openings have been abysmal leads me to suspect that he has a "bomb" to unleash but is now drawing the games until game 11 when he has White.
As someone suggested, the nearer to the end and it remain scoreless, the more a shock "win" will prove to be the winner. This reminds  of football where the score is 0-0 and an 79th/85th min goal will prove the winner.
It is not pretty but chess is a game and fame and money is at stake.
Somewhat similar to Grischuk's and Andreikin's strategy at the recent World Cups.
Greece's Euro Football Team Champs win?


Correcting myself: looks like the "bomb" is not required.
Will change my tune, and say that Sergey will now hunker down, "park the bus" as they say in football, and inch on "hands and knees" to the finishing line and become World Champion.

This is just an opinion, so don't flame me: IMHO, Sergey Karjakin did not win the game today but Magnus lost the game.

Someone said somewhere that it comes in threes: first, there was Brexit; second, there was Trump; now looks like there is Sergey (and Putin).

I am not giving up total hope for a Magnus resurgence, but is it very difficult against Sergey, was much easier against Anand. I think Sergey's win against Peter Svidler is a forerunner of what can occur. Again that was Peter's match to lose.

Life goes on, it is just a game but I am afraid of what will occur just beyond the 64 squares especially in Russia and in Fide in particular. No reform.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #54 - 11/22/16 at 00:56:39
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Cannot believe the lack of objectivity and risk in Carlsens play today.

It has been coming though, doent look himself.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #53 - 11/22/16 at 00:55:00
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Karjakin is the new champion!

Or so I learned from the (premium-member, I believe) chat on chess24.  Also Carlsen is now a nobody, it seems.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #52 - 11/22/16 at 00:38:21
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Three years ago I made a weird prediction in another thread. gwnn wrote on 11/22/13 at 09:11:00:
It could be Karjakin maybe? He shows none of the consistency Carlsen does but there were already some very nice games between the two (I see the overall h2h is +3/=11/-1 for Carlsen, last win for Karjakin in 2006 when neither was at the top). The squeeze from Wijk aan Zee 2013 is more the exception rather than the rule. No doubt about the fact that he needs a qualitative jump to be a serious contender over 12 games but he just has that extra something that makes him my favourite [to be Carlsen's Karpov].

But I still can't believe what happened today? Magnus played like he had a gun to his head not to ever settle for a draw? I know, if they draw people complain, if they overpress, people complain more. But still, what was this?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #51 - 11/22/16 at 00:11:36
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Carlsen's lapses have been becoming more frequent. Now he has lost; now he will be tested as never before.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #50 - 11/21/16 at 20:00:20
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ReneDescartes wrote on 11/21/16 at 19:28:36:
What's remarkable is Karjakin's success at drawing every game as Black. Carlsen's hunting ground is outthinking the world elite from equal positions. Not this time, not so far. In fact, Karjakin's play looks a lot like Carlsen's.

Maybe Karjakin used the training time to toughen himself in such positions rather than to build an armada of novelties. It seems it was a good decision. I mean, if Carlsen plays the Trompowsky and the Colle-Zuckertort, what good would a lot of novelties in main lines do?


But dont the equal positions Carlsen usually gets have more opportunity for play in them? Was this really the way he was playing against Anand?
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #49 - 11/21/16 at 19:42:58
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Hmm, will they reach total symmetry in the next couple of moves?  Pretty exciting!    Grin
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #48 - 11/21/16 at 19:28:36
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What's remarkable is Karjakin's success at drawing every game as Black. Carlsen's hunting ground is outthinking the world elite from equal positions. Not this time, not so far. In fact, Karjakin's play looks a lot like Carlsen's.

Maybe Karjakin used the training time to toughen himself in such positions rather than to build an armada of novelties. It seems it was a good decision. I mean, if Carlsen plays the Trompowsky and the Colle-Zuckertort, what good would a lot of novelties in main lines do?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #47 - 11/21/16 at 17:14:13
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Gerry1970 wrote on 11/21/16 at 11:32:45:
It's a new sensation for Carlsen. This is the first title fight where he is not having his own way. Karjakin's defensive abilities are impressive. Will Carlsen get frustrated?



Are Karjakin's defensive abilities really that remarkable? Has Carlsen had that much of an attack going in these games?
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #46 - 11/21/16 at 11:32:45
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It's a new sensation for Carlsen. This is the first title fight where he is not having his own way. Karjakin's defensive abilities are impressive. Will Carlsen get frustrated?

I must say he is very expressive. Some of the photos etc. you see display how unhappy he is at some moments. He doesn't seem to mind letting that show. An interesting character for sure.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #45 - 11/21/16 at 11:17:03
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It seems unlikely that he has a single "bomb" that he has so far chosen not to play, because he can't predict the opening. Sometimes people wait for years before they get to play their carefully prepared novelty, and Magnus seems very able to vary his responses.

I don't doubt that he has strong novelties prepared, but so far Carlsen's seem to come earlier.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #44 - 11/21/16 at 10:59:42
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The nearer we get to game 11 and 12, and the fact that Sergey Karjakin has been preparing for months and yet the openings have been abysmal leads me to suspect that he has a "bomb" to unleash but is now drawing the games until game 11 when he has White.
As someone suggested, the nearer to the end and it remain scoreless, the more a shock "win" will prove to be the winner. This reminds  of football where the score is 0-0 and an 79th/85th min goal will prove the winner.
It is not pretty but chess is a game and fame and money is at stake.
Somewhat similar to Grischuk's and Andreikin's strategy at the recent World Cups.
Greece's Euro Football Team Champs win?
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #43 - 11/21/16 at 10:09:39
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/21/16 at 04:05:10:
I took game 7 differently, just an easy draw for Magnus and a squandered opportunity with White by Karjakin.  Magnus was probably fairly happy with the game.


With the result perhaps but he was comfortably equal before 18 .. Rc8. Even chances to at least try and squeeze Karjakin.  Obviously he didn't have any after that.

So there was a non trivial miscalulation thrown in, which can't please him.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #42 - 11/21/16 at 08:57:39
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This was another disappointing (quick draw). Are they still feeling the effects of those two marathon matches (games 3 &4) ?

Game 3 was by far the best of the 7, but it's getting tense now with so few games left.

I also think having such a defensive player in Sergey, doesn't help the excitement of a World Championship match.

We've seen in other sports, that if you choose to be  defensive, then it can turn out extremely boring.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #41 - 11/21/16 at 07:41:15
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I think Karjakin's preparation with White has been terrible. Hes been preparing for 5 months ish? How can this lame Anti-Marshall be the best he came up with? I thought he's suppose to have this huge team working for him. Whomever masterminded his White match strategy, needs to get the boot. This should have been a 1.d4 White match strategy from the beginning. Carlsen's Nimzo and QGD are both crackable, it's the Grünfeld that might have caused some headaches, even so, hes theoretically only got to beat it once. Personally, I think he might have been able to get him in the 3.f3 Anti-Grünfeld. It's a shame he can't tag Anand in to play his White games for him. On the flip side, if Anand had Karjakin's defensive attributes, maybe he wins the title back in Sochi 2014.

Anyway, really disappointed with Karjakin's White game. If he loses the match he can't have any complaints, its been so poor you could call it unprofessional. /rant over
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #40 - 11/21/16 at 04:05:10
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ReneDescartes wrote on 11/21/16 at 00:47:08:
Now Carlsen ended down a pawn in game 7. Each one a little worse...


I took game 7 differently, just an easy draw for Magnus and a squandered opportunity with White by Karjakin.  Magnus was probably fairly happy with the game.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #39 - 11/21/16 at 00:47:08
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Now Carlsen ended down a pawn in game 7. Each one a little worse...
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #38 - 11/20/16 at 16:33:32
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The more draws there are, the more catastrophic a loss becomes, which leads to more conservative play and more draws. I think Magnus is reeling from the fact that Karjakin's taking everything he can throw at him. Game 5 was a further deterioration of Magnus's nerves.

Maybe over the rest day he will gather himself.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #37 - 11/20/16 at 14:04:18
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Karjakin has also had his chances in fairness.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #36 - 11/18/16 at 09:51:10
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It seems like that is what he is bent on doing, regardless of whether its strictly the plan or not Smiley

I seem to remember that he did lots of it during the world cup he won too, so maybe its just his style nowadays.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #35 - 11/17/16 at 22:52:16
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/17/16 at 16:16:52:
Gerry1970 wrote on 11/17/16 at 09:40:08:
Rowson had an funny comment about sad positions.


Which was...?

https://twitter.com/Jonathan_Rowson/status/798642076246228992

This was interesting/funny too:
https://twitter.com/Jonathan_Rowson/status/798641634716110850

But can it really be the matchplan to get into slightly worse endgames against Magnus every game, to both hurt his confidence and lull him into a false sense of confidence until he overpresses?
That.. just doesn't sound like a sane idea.
E: Although who knows, so far it looks like it might be working out today
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #34 - 11/17/16 at 16:16:52
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Gerry1970 wrote on 11/17/16 at 09:40:08:
Rowson had an funny comment about sad positions.


Which was...?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #33 - 11/17/16 at 09:40:08
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Yes amazing, so many GMs on commentaries and twitter thought he was in an awful position. Rowson had an funny comment about sad positions.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #32 - 11/16/16 at 14:52:04
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Or maybe he just enjoys this kind of suffering? Who knows Smiley

Astonishingly resilient to defend three positions like that out of four, but he'll presumably hope to avoid quite so much work for the rest of the match.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #31 - 11/16/16 at 12:27:44
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Thought Karjakin had an edge out of the opening in that Spanish. Bxh6 he just missed the ...Qc6 move and was carried away with ...Nxe4 lines I suppose.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #30 - 11/15/16 at 15:34:05
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What a brilliant game that was. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #29 - 11/15/16 at 09:54:46
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Haven't read it all but it seems Yasser Seirwan has nice comments on the game at chessbase.com.

He mentioned Re2 also and thought one idea might be when a R trade happens it would be on e2, not e1. But he did not see this as a big deal.

ErictheRed wrote on 11/15/16 at 02:57:09:
Who can explain today's 10.Re2!? to me?  Is this a new idea?  I know little about the Berlin and its sidelines.


  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #28 - 11/15/16 at 05:58:21
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I believe it was invented (even if not in this exact position) by MVL while playing around on the Play Magnus app. Chess.com has some more information in their Round 3 report:https://www.chess.com/news/view/carlsen-can-t-airlift-karjakin-s-berlin-in-round.... Of course Carlsen, ever the jokester, said that the rook "slipped" on e2 Grin
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #27 - 11/15/16 at 04:23:12
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The "point" as guessed by Svidler/Hansen (both of which also didn't know the move) is that it invites 10. ..b6 for b6-a5-Ba6 type plans against a potential Qd3 & c2-c4, after which Magnus plays 11.Re1, "claiming" that the pawn on b6 is actually weaker than on b7 (because black would like to go a6 in many positions, c6 is less of an option, and in some variations the Rook on a8 now gets hit by the white Queen).

I would heavily surmise the move is less about getting an objective advantage, and more about getting a comparably unknown position that he spent more time preparing than Karjakin did (much like his choice of the Trompowsky in the first game), to eat some time off the clock and put him under pressure as soon as possible (which is likely.. difficult.. in most lines of the Re1 Berlin).
I don't believe this has much of a future as a refutation to the Berlin :H and even doubt we'll see it again in this match.

It's not a novelty (c24 Database eg gives 2 games played with it in 2016, by Kasimdzhanov and Vallejo Pons), but unsure who "invented it" (The chat claimed Giri at some point, but that might just have been a random name drop), and it certainly qualifies as rare and fresh enough with Svidler not knowing it.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #26 - 11/15/16 at 02:57:09
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Who can explain today's 10.Re2!? to me?  Is this a new idea?  I know little about the Berlin and its sidelines.

  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #25 - 11/15/16 at 02:13:51
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I wonder what Carlsen missed when he went for Rb7.. very strange end to a very interesting game.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #24 - 11/12/16 at 17:15:39
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I was on ICC for game 1. There were some masters, IMs and a couple of GMs there. The feed was pretty close to being in real time.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #23 - 11/12/16 at 14:53:35
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Michael Ayton wrote on 11/11/16 at 19:28:37:
Chess 24 is just giving me (in the UK) error messages. Any other sites?


I'm in the UK too, but didnt have any problems with Chess 24. Did you eventually get onto it?
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #22 - 11/12/16 at 14:32:58
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In previous years Chessbase used to feature a highlights video by Danny King for free after the game. Don't see that anymore. Surely that cannot be blocked?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #21 - 11/11/16 at 20:17:55
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According to twitter the pay site has crashed anyway and is down, so dont waste money on that.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #20 - 11/11/16 at 20:06:24
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Thanks -- working for me too now.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #19 - 11/11/16 at 19:48:32
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chess24 working for me but no live video stream, just live commentary
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #18 - 11/11/16 at 19:28:37
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Chess 24 is just giving me (in the UK) error messages. Any other sites?
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #17 - 11/11/16 at 19:14:02
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On Chess 24 now but I don't know if it delayed by an hour. Just started commentary ca. 15 minutes ago.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #16 - 11/11/16 at 19:07:10
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so we have no live stream? thats poor.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #15 - 11/11/16 at 14:45:16
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Do you have to pay on WorldChess?
I thought you only had to get through the free registering process; with the payment being for the VR-Stuff?!
At least that's how it was for the last WCh

Chess24 most definitely is free and doesn't even require you to register.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #14 - 11/11/16 at 13:03:01
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Gerry1970 wrote on 11/11/16 at 10:43:49:
Hello:
If you don't want to register and pay for the official site are there any other options to watch with commentary. Chess24 I think but you probably have to pay their too?
Thanks.


No, i think Chess 24's commentary for the big tournaments is free.
  

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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #13 - 11/11/16 at 10:43:49
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Hello:
If you don't want to register and pay for the official site are there any other options to watch with commentary. Chess24 I think but you probably have to pay their too?
Thanks.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #12 - 11/10/16 at 12:30:12
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12 games is nothing. Ridiculous.
  
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Re: 2016 World Championship Match
Reply #11 - 11/10/16 at 10:37:00