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Normal Topic Delaying ...c5 (Read 3952 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: Delaying ...c5
Reply #7 - 12/23/16 at 00:00:20
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Monocle wrote on 12/18/16 at 18:00:51:
1. d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Bxc4 a6 6.O-O b5 7.Bd3 c5


This is a known line.  After 8.a4 b4 9.e4, it's thought to be favorable for White.  For example, Avrukh gives 9..Bb7 10.e5 Nd5 11.Nbd2 Nd7 12.Nc4 cxd4 13.Bg5 Qb8 14.Re1 h6 15.Bh4 Nc5 16.Bg3 as advantageous for White. 

Generally speaking, the problem is that 8..b4 weakens the Queenside and, in particular, the c4 square.  Unlike in the Meran, there is no Knight on c3 to kick, so Black doesn't get any compensation for playing ..b4 in the form of either a tempo or a misplaced White piece.  White gets to play e4-e5 and Nb1-d2-c4, with chances to play for Nd6.  If that happens, Black tends to be in trouble, since even if he can take the Nd6, White may end up with a strong pawn on d6. 

All that said, there are obviously other moves that both sides can try, and it's a complicated enough line.  It may well be that Black can equalize.  See, for example, Grachev-Fier, Aeroflot 2011, as a possible Black approach.  I personally don't like to play lines as Black that give White a clear and good plan to pursue, even if, with careful play, I can equalize.  But YMMV and there is certainly room to explore this line further.
« Last Edit: 12/23/16 at 14:21:39 by LeeRoth »  
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Monocle
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Re: Delaying ...c5
Reply #6 - 12/21/16 at 21:14:04
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I don't mind playing an endgame, it's the boring pawn structure that puts me off this particular one.  I guess you can't stop white from being boring.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Delaying ...c5
Reply #5 - 12/21/16 at 19:19:19
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If you want to impose an unbalanced, probably sharp game with mobile pawn majorities without an endgame or boring exchange variation, the classic choices are the Triangle system and the Benoni/Benko family. Each move order has its problems, but you can get that much. The Marshall Gambit with Carlsen's knight retreat is probably the most boring thing that can come out of those.

This whole matter isn't a problem for me personally because I studied endgames really diligently and it paid off  Wink.
  
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Monocle
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Re: Delaying ...c5
Reply #4 - 12/21/16 at 14:12:59
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Well, I'm not specifically aiming to get into the mainlines of the QGA.  Transposing into the meran semi-slav would be even better, if it was a decent line, because that's another opening that I'd play if not for certain unavoidable lines (Bg5 and the exchange slav). 

Alas, the more I look at other black defences to 1.d4, the more I feel like sticking with the QGD.

  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Delaying ...c5
Reply #3 - 12/21/16 at 13:08:59
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Ok, but White immediately goes 8.a4 b4 9.e4 anyway, and while you are not in a refuted line, it's a sideline with a completely diferent flavor from the main lines, and I don't think one that's particularly great for Black.  Yes, of course Nb1-d2-b3-c5 happens directly, but my point was that even when it happens with tempo that knight is pretty dangerous. Anyway, you can play this and it avoids the endgame, though it's not chiefly a transpo trick to enter the main lines without exposing yourself to that possibility.

« Last Edit: 12/21/16 at 14:19:57 by ReneDescartes »  
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Monocle
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Re: Delaying ...c5
Reply #2 - 12/18/16 at 18:00:51
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Doesn't white get e4 in before black plays ...c5 in a similar position in the Meran?  I'm a bit behind on the theory there, since I only have Sadler's old book on the Semi-Slav, but doesn't black also sometimes play ...b4 without even being provoked by white's a4?

Just wondering why white getting e4 in, or being able to play Nc3-b1-d2-b3, would be problematic here if not in the Meran.  Maybe white doesn't have to play Nc3 in the QGA and can just go Nbd2-b3/c4 directly? 

Also, in the Gelfand game, it looks like Karpov delays ...e6 and ...c5 a bit too long. 

Since my objective is to avoid the queen exchange line, couldn't I play ...c5 as soon as white blocks the d-file with Bd3?

e.g. 1. d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Bxc4 a6 6.O-O b5 7.Bd3 c5

« Last Edit: 12/19/16 at 13:37:31 by Monocle »  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Delaying ...c5
Reply #1 - 12/12/16 at 16:38:13
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The main problem is that the White bishop retreats not to b3 but to d3, when an early 1.a4 thrust by White, attacking the b-pawn, gains in effect. If this happens with Nc3 in and Black pushes forward with 1...b4, the White knight just goes Nc3-b1-d2-b3 with a good posting hitting the weakened squares c5 and a5 and overprotecting d4.

Furthermore, with the bishop on d3 and ...c5 not in, White's e4 is often easier to achieve and more effective than in the main lines.

Overall it's doable if you want to avoid the endgame, but not particularly great if White knows what to do.

I don't know about the current theory, but see for example Karpov-Adianto  1998 for an Nb3 plan (1/2-1/2--Karpov got a winning queenless middlegame but let the win slip) and Gelfand-Karpov (1-0) 2002 for the e4 plan.
  
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Monocle
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Delaying ...c5
12/11/16 at 16:59:43
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The main thing putting me off the QGA is the boring dxc5 endgame variation, but recently I saw some games by Evgeny Postny as black, where instead of 5... c5, he played a6/b5/Bb7/Nbd7 and only then ...c5, avoiding the queen exchange.

Is there a major drawback to playing this way, and only playing ...c5 when it doesn't lead to a queen exchange, either after black plays Nbd7, or white blocks the d-file with Nbd2 or Bd3 or moves the queen away?
  
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