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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GM repertoire - Pirc (Read 32352 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #57 - 07/15/19 at 14:30:05
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Heya.

MW wrote on 07/14/19 at 18:47:01:
The 5....c5 line is interesting but if you are using Marin's book you need look at the 6 Bb5+ line, in particular 9 h3. After 9..cxd4 10 Qxd4 Nc6 he doesn't mention 11 Qa4 which has been played in correspondence a few times. It is tricky and the computer doesn't really understand the potential resulting endgame. Similarly in the same line I'm a little sceptical of his 12...0-0!? N recommendation....I think white can improve on his suggested line and get a good game.

This is good to know. Somehow I suspect black will be fine after 11.Qa4 with accurate play though. Just looking at the position I think black looks flexible enough to warrant not having to come under continuous pressure. Playing the next half a dozen moves or so may not be so easy though.

Edit (this is the line for those who may wonder):
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 c5 6.e5 Ng4 7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.Bxd7+ Qxd7 9.h3 cxd4 10.Qxd4 Nc6 11.Qa4

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/14/19 at 18:52:13:
Are you talking about 6...Cbd7 against the Austrian Attack ¿ On the 6. Ae3 line he gives 6...b6 which is the main line. In Davies book, he gives I think 6...Cbd7, which is less crazy. Both sides need to know what they are doing in these lines though.

6.Bd3 Nbd7 sure.
6.Be3 b6 Is mainline-ish and a pretty expected recommendation even if it has some dangers as well.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/14/19 at 18:52:13:
I remember few years ago I played 6. Ae3 b6 against an attacking player, and he basically collapsed before move 15 because he had no idea what he was doing  Cheesy

Haha. Having played 6.Be3 a bit I sympathise with the white player Grin

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/14/19 at 18:52:13:
Did you see the extra database in his 2th DWD on 5...0-0 6. Ad3 Ca6 ¿ I would prefer to play that than the weird 6...Cbd7. Those files were very interesting, I remember there was this concept where White puts his bitchop on c4, Marin gave some lines where Black springs with ...Cb4, then if a3 simply leaves it en prise and develops, since ...axb4 cxb4 attacks both White's pieces on c3 and c4.
Stigma wrote on 07/14/19 at 21:46:08:
Did you also check the included databases with analysis on the Marin DVD? I believe in many of the critical lines he has more analysis there than he presents in the short video clips. There was a backup line against 6.Bd3 in the Austrian in the database, for one thing.

Yer. Quickly. Although the games did not look so current tbh and I've only played:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Bg4
in blitz.

Have a nice day.
  
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Stigma
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #56 - 07/14/19 at 21:46:08
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 07/14/19 at 15:55:55:
I don't think any major theoretical saves were presented though and I would play these lines only against weaker opposition.

[...]

Also it felt quite crazy to have these masses of sharp lines presented in like 6-14min video clips. I would need a detailed book or computer to want to play this stuff pretty much.

Did you also check the included databases with analysis on the Marin DVD? I believe in many of the critical lines he has more analysis there than he presents in the short video clips. There was a backup line against 6.Bd3 in the Austrian in the database, for one thing.
  

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #55 - 07/14/19 at 18:52:13
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 07/14/19 at 15:55:55:
So I've now also chugged down Marin's second DVD (aggresive lines). While interesting it was also somewhat filled with lines that do not have the best reputation. I don't think any major theoretical saves were presented though and I would play these lines only against weaker opposition.


Are you talking about 6...Cbd7 against the Austrian Attack ¿ On the 6. Ae3 line he gives 6...b6 which is the main line. In Davies book, he gives I think 6...Cbd7, which is less crazy. Both sides need to know what they are doing in these lines though. I remember few years ago I played 6. Ae3 b6 against an attacking player, and he basically collapsed before move 15 because he had no idea what he was doing  Cheesy

Did you see the extra database in his 2th DWD on 5...0-0 6. Ad3 Ca6 ¿ I would prefer to play that than the weird 6...Cbd7. Those files were very interesting, I remember there was this concept where White puts his bitchop on c4, Marin gave some lines where Black springs with ...Cb4, then if a3 simply leaves it en prise and develops, since ...axb4 cxb4 attacks both White's pieces on c3 and c4.
  
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MW
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #54 - 07/14/19 at 18:47:01
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The 5....c5 line is interesting but if you are using Marin's book you need look at the 6 Bb5+ line, in particular 9 h3. After 9..cxd4 10 Qxd4 Nc6 he doesn't mention 11 Qa4 which has been played in correspondence a few times. It is tricky and the computer doesn't really understand the potential resulting endgame. Similarly in the same line I'm a little sceptical of his 12...0-0!? N recommendation....I think white can improve on his suggested line and get a good game.

Other than those two small points I think GM Marin has done an excellent job and the line seems to hold up well.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #53 - 07/14/19 at 15:55:55
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Hi.

So I've now also chugged down Marin's second DVD (aggresive lines). While interesting it was also somewhat filled with lines that do not have the best reputation. I don't think any major theoretical saves were presented though and I would play these lines only against weaker opposition.

Also it felt quite crazy to have these masses of sharp lines presented in like 6-14min video clips. I would need a detailed book or computer to want to play this stuff pretty much.

I'd say get the book and skip these DVD's unless you are interested in the presentation (which chess-wise was quite clear and interesting).

Have a nice day.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #52 - 07/13/19 at 11:52:39
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Hi.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/13/19 at 01:06:15:
I remember he also gave extra analysis files in that DWD. It was about the line 5...0-0 6. Ad3 Ca6 7. 0-0 c5 8. d5 Ag4, which is the same line that Davies recommends in his Pirc book. This setup is my favourite against Austrian Attack.

Yea. This line makes quite a bit of positional sense. If I could go back I would have played it more than I've done.

Still sad to read in the introduction that Marin gave up on my personal favourite:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Rb8
Five years ago because of 9.Qe2 though. Seems a bit needless because I don't see why this would be especially displeasing for black after the rare 9...Bg4; which also looks a bit like his more favoured 8...Bg4 incidentally.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/13/19 at 01:06:15:
In the actual DWD, he recommends 6...Cbd7, which is definitely not the main line.

Cool. Will be interesting but when I've looked at this before (briefly) I was not convinced.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/13/19 at 01:06:15:
I was expecting Marin to cover this line in his Pirc book. 5...c5 is theoretically fine for Black, but requires much memorisation and is more unintuitive compared to 5...0-0.

Yea. But now we got a nice book on 5...c5 Grin

Good day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #51 - 07/13/19 at 01:06:15
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There is big difference in 2th DWD because he recommends 5...0-0 instead of 5...c5 against Austrian Attack.

I remember he also gave extra analysis files in that DWD. It was about the line 5...0-0 6. Ad3 Ca6 7. 0-0 c5 8. d5 Ag4, which is the same line that Davies recommends in his Pirc book. This setup is my favourite against Austrian Attack. It looks like some sort Classical Modern Benoni, except against 1. e4. In the actual DWD, he recommends 6...Cbd7, which is definitely not the main line.

I was expecting Marin to cover this line in his Pirc book. 5...c5 is theoretically fine for Black, but requires much memorisation and is more unintuitive compared to 5...0-0.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #50 - 07/12/19 at 23:18:30
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Hi.

I've been watching Marin's Pirc DVDs from 2014. Started with DVD 1 (positional lines) and liked it. His 6...c6 classical stuff is impressive and almost makes me want to try it out. Without having compared I think it's basically the same stuff as covered in his GM Rep book; although for some reason having it communicated in video format made it feel much more appealing to try out Smiley

There is also some 3.f3, Fianchetto and 150-attack (Be3/Nf3/Qd2) with a6 and later b5 before Nc6. An interesting way of playing, the last one.

Now for the juicy DVD 2 (aggressive lines), where as I recall the recommendations differed a lot more from the GM rep book. I think this second one might be worth getting even if you have the book. As of now I don't really see the need to get the first one.

Have a nice night.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #49 - 03/14/18 at 19:21:35
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Yeah, you're right of course, for some reason I only thought about 3...Bg7 and not 3...d6.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #48 - 03/14/18 at 10:33:53
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mn wrote on 03/14/18 at 06:32:41:
True enough - but the Pirc transposition forces Black into early ...Bg7 lines, right?


I don't see why, can you give a line which forces this on Black?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #47 - 03/14/18 at 06:32:41
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True enough - but the Pirc transposition forces Black into early ...Bg7 lines, right?
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #46 - 03/14/18 at 05:03:15
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mn wrote on 03/14/18 at 01:38:03:
Can't you just go 3...d5 - ?


Yes, however a Pirc player could go 1. ...d6 which helps against Bf4 as you can delay Nf6 and punch the Bishop on the nose with e5, however if such a player fears a Pirc transposition, then they shouldn't be playing the Pirc  Wink

Anyone who wants to avoid the Pirc transposition could go d5.


« Last Edit: 03/14/18 at 06:25:01 by JEH »  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #45 - 03/14/18 at 01:38:03
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Can't you just go 3...d5 - ?
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #44 - 03/14/18 at 00:18:49
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:41:17:
Black definitely needs to meet it. My hope was that Marin instead would come up with some set of analysed lines where white is prevented from reaching the exact position after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6

Although then all of the following lines needed to be scrapped in the repertoire:


There's more.

After 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4, continuing with 2.  .. g6 3. Nc3 runs into the same problem.

As a consequence I've revised my assessment of 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 from "nice to be told at move 2 it's a London system" to "beware dangerous transpositions to 150 attacks".
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #43 - 03/13/18 at 22:46:29
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Good evening.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:41:17:
I would have liked for Marin to repair this specific problem in another way though (not that I am sure that is possible on the other hand).
RdC wrote on 03/13/18 at 09:39:33:
It's a standard idea for White, to play Bh6, exchange on g7 and then play e5. That's going to crop up in a number of positions and doesn't Black need some ways of meeting it?

Black definitely needs to meet it. My hope was that Marin instead would come up with some set of analysed lines where white is prevented from reaching the exact position after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6

Although then all of the following lines needed to be scrapped in the repertoire:
a) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6
b) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 Nbd7 7.Bh6
c) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6
d) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bg5 0-0 6.Qd2 c6 7.Bh6 Nbd7
e) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bf4 c6 6.Qd2 Nbd7 7.Bh6

In some ways the sheer amount of rethinking needed makes it understandable that Marin did what he did (strengthening the old line). Still seems to me like there are clear alternatives to at least a couple of these lines so maybe it is not a complete impossibility to piece an alternative set of replies open.

Have a nice night.
  
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