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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GM repertoire - Pirc (Read 43735 times)
RdC
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #44 - 03/14/18 at 00:18:49
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:41:17:
Black definitely needs to meet it. My hope was that Marin instead would come up with some set of analysed lines where white is prevented from reaching the exact position after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6

Although then all of the following lines needed to be scrapped in the repertoire:


There's more.

After 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4, continuing with 2.  .. g6 3. Nc3 runs into the same problem.

As a consequence I've revised my assessment of 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 from "nice to be told at move 2 it's a London system" to "beware dangerous transpositions to 150 attacks".
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #43 - 03/13/18 at 22:46:29
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Good evening.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:41:17:
I would have liked for Marin to repair this specific problem in another way though (not that I am sure that is possible on the other hand).
RdC wrote on 03/13/18 at 09:39:33:
It's a standard idea for White, to play Bh6, exchange on g7 and then play e5. That's going to crop up in a number of positions and doesn't Black need some ways of meeting it?

Black definitely needs to meet it. My hope was that Marin instead would come up with some set of analysed lines where white is prevented from reaching the exact position after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6

Although then all of the following lines needed to be scrapped in the repertoire:
a) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6
b) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 Nbd7 7.Bh6
c) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6
d) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bg5 0-0 6.Qd2 c6 7.Bh6 Nbd7
e) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bf4 c6 6.Qd2 Nbd7 7.Bh6

In some ways the sheer amount of rethinking needed makes it understandable that Marin did what he did (strengthening the old line). Still seems to me like there are clear alternatives to at least a couple of these lines so maybe it is not a complete impossibility to piece an alternative set of replies open.

Have a nice night.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #42 - 03/13/18 at 09:39:33
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:41:17:
Problem is the line could quite realistically, despite the improvements, be bad.


It's a standard idea for White, to play Bh6, exchange on g7 and then play e5. That's going to crop up in a number of positions and doesn't Black need some ways of meeting it? Allowing the pawn to reach f7 could easily become unpleasant.

It's a position that can be reached from 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 as well
  
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JEH
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #41 - 03/13/18 at 06:22:24
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:41:17:
Problem is the line could quite realistically, despite the improvements, be bad.


Well the Pirc is a bed of roses, i.e watch out for the thorns!  Wink



  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #40 - 03/13/18 at 01:41:17
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Hi.

Maybe you can have that mindset and then drop it once you conclude the line is indeed bad. Don't really see the harm.

I would have liked for Marin to repair this specific problem in another way though (not that I am sure that is possible on the other hand).

Problem is the line could quite realistically, despite the improvements, be bad.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #39 - 03/12/18 at 20:32:25
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From the update (page 9):
"My original conclusion about this position on pages 210-211 was that White had a clear advantage in view of the threat of e5-e6 and his better development. After having my attention drawn to the possible transpositions, I had a closer look at the position and found it entirely viable for Black."
Interesting... It looks like 'This position is worse, so I don't recommend playing like this... Oh, wait, I must recommend it due to transpositional possibilities. So it not so bad at all' Wink
  
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JEH
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #38 - 03/12/18 at 09:55:55
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Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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JEH
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #37 - 01/21/18 at 09:06:23
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That's what I love about this forum, that it can pin point such move order details!

Note on p39, Marin says - "why I now prefer 7. ...Qc7 over 7. ...Nbd7" and "Black experiences some micro-problems"

So it's a preference issue, one being a micro bit better than the other. So for a GM (a bit of a clue the book title there  Wink), he could play Qc7 when he can, Nbd7 when he couldn't, and not be bothered.

For us lesser mortals, if you have a problem not being able to only play one line, then I don't think the Pirc is the right defence for you. You need 2, 3 or more lines against the main stuff, so you can bob and weave like a slippery duck   Cheesy
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #36 - 01/21/18 at 08:45:07
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Hi.

Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/20/18 at 18:00:10:
Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/02/18 at 08:29:25:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3



I just bought this book and I don't see a suggestion for black after 6. Nf3. Probably I missed something?

Nope. 6.Nf3 in the above sequence is not covered in the book. Troubling I would say.

When this omission was mentioned there was also an interesting supplementary observation made that got attention as well however. That was that from this out of repertoire position after 6.Nf3 white could try and steer towards something like the classical variation but then the knight development on d7 would prohibit a clean (re)entry into Marin's suggested classical line. Compare:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Qc7!? 7.a4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 e5 (Line with knight on d7 from 4.Be3 move order)
plus
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.h3 Qc7 8.Be3 e5 9.a4 exd4 (Marin's classical line - see p.62)
and also
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.h3 Nbd7 8.a4 Qc7 9.Be3 (which Marin mentions on p.39)

So not only does black have to contend with being on his own after 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 if he is not careful he may end up in a classical setup that he does not usually play. Obviously which and how good/bad options black has got picked up as a subjects here after these things became apparent.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #35 - 01/20/18 at 18:00:10
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/02/18 at 08:29:25:
[b]1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3



I just bought this book and I don't see a suggestion for black after 6. Nf3. Probably I missed something?
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #34 - 01/02/18 at 08:29:25
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Hello and welcome to the forum. Smiley

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Qc7 7.a4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 b6 10.Nd2

Is what Marin doesn't like (see Marin 2017 p.40). He only gives 10...Bb7 though.

Have a nice year all.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #33 - 01/01/18 at 14:18:18
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Hi,

with great interest I have followed your discussion. However, I would really like to know what the problem with 9. ...b6 is supposed to be. I've been playing the Pirc for quite some time now and always relied on this line.
Does anyone know where Marin sees the problems there?

Thank you!

Have a good start into the new year,

Hale-Bopp
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #32 - 12/28/17 at 10:54:02
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 12/26/17 at 18:32:59:
Thanks for the game. I'd only had a very quick look at the line. Seems I'm in good company with Ulf  Wink

It highlights the point of the waiting move, in that after Qd2, the Qb1 plan is no longer available.

It's a very subtle and tricky opening for both players  Smiley

I just thought now about how moving the f3 knight in these structures is a common plan. Usually it goes to d2 but in the position after 9...Re8 maybe 10.Ng5!? can be tried; otherwise 10.Nd2 e5 11.d5 cxd5 12.exd5 and it seems harsh to believe this is so bad for black.
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Qc7 7.a4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 Re8 10.Ng5!?
(10...b6 11.f4) I suspect is not so great for black but I guess it should be playable.
(10...e5 11.Bc4) Seems dangerous.
(10...h6!? 11.Nf3) And while it is not obvious white has got anything major from his knight manouvre, by involving the queen against the now more exposed h-pawn, he will likely win back the tempo he lost. The general idea then is that black's advanced h-pawn counts slightly against him positionally; even if a long game is likely needed for it to have a chance to be a liability at some point.

Have a nice day.
  
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JEH
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #31 - 12/26/17 at 18:32:59
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/26/17 at 18:21:00:
Using your 9...Re8 it seems like Ulf Andersson managed to achieve a result that was satisfactory (for both parties Smiley).


Thanks for the game. I'd only had a very quick look at the line. Seems I'm in good company with Ulf  Wink

It highlights the point of the waiting move, in that after Qd2, the Qb1 plan is no longer available.

It's a very subtle and tricky opening for both players  Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #30 - 12/26/17 at 18:21:00
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Hello.

JEH wrote on 12/26/17 at 13:05:30:
Inspired by the Ivanchuck waiting move 9. ..Re8! in the Accelerated Classical, how about 9. ..Re8, so after e5, e4 is immediately under threat, but Black isn't committed to e5 just yet.

It does look like a constructive move with some points behind it. To avoid going into something like the following related series of moves (not liked by Marin, see "Grandmaster Repertoire - The Pirc Defence", p.62)
(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.a4 Qc7 8.Be3 e5 9.h3 Re8 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.a5)

A practical point, whenever you've played e5 as black, would probably be to try Nxe5. For example:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.a4 Qc7 8.Be3
Granted not really the move order discussed earlier. Moving on though...
8...Nbd7 9.h3 Re8 10.a5 e5 11.dxe5 Nxe5
and we've avoided something similar to the above line.

Or you can try postponing e7-e5 for a while longer. In fact...
Using your 9...Re8 it seems like Ulf Andersson managed to achieve a result that was satisfactory (for both parties Smiley).


Have a nice day.
  
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