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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GM repertoire - Pirc (Read 36545 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #57 - 07/15/19 at 14:30:05
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Heya.

MW wrote on 07/14/19 at 18:47:01:
The 5....c5 line is interesting but if you are using Marin's book you need look at the 6 Bb5+ line, in particular 9 h3. After 9..cxd4 10 Qxd4 Nc6 he doesn't mention 11 Qa4 which has been played in correspondence a few times. It is tricky and the computer doesn't really understand the potential resulting endgame. Similarly in the same line I'm a little sceptical of his 12...0-0!? N recommendation....I think white can improve on his suggested line and get a good game.

This is good to know. Somehow I suspect black will be fine after 11.Qa4 with accurate play though. Just looking at the position I think black looks flexible enough to warrant not having to come under continuous pressure. Playing the next half a dozen moves or so may not be so easy though.

Edit (this is the line for those who may wonder):
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 c5 6.e5 Ng4 7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.Bxd7+ Qxd7 9.h3 cxd4 10.Qxd4 Nc6 11.Qa4

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/14/19 at 18:52:13:
Are you talking about 6...Cbd7 against the Austrian Attack ¿ On the 6. Ae3 line he gives 6...b6 which is the main line. In Davies book, he gives I think 6...Cbd7, which is less crazy. Both sides need to know what they are doing in these lines though.

6.Bd3 Nbd7 sure.
6.Be3 b6 Is mainline-ish and a pretty expected recommendation even if it has some dangers as well.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/14/19 at 18:52:13:
I remember few years ago I played 6. Ae3 b6 against an attacking player, and he basically collapsed before move 15 because he had no idea what he was doing  Cheesy

Haha. Having played 6.Be3 a bit I sympathise with the white player Grin

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/14/19 at 18:52:13:
Did you see the extra database in his 2th DWD on 5...0-0 6. Ad3 Ca6 ¿ I would prefer to play that than the weird 6...Cbd7. Those files were very interesting, I remember there was this concept where White puts his bitchop on c4, Marin gave some lines where Black springs with ...Cb4, then if a3 simply leaves it en prise and develops, since ...axb4 cxb4 attacks both White's pieces on c3 and c4.
Stigma wrote on 07/14/19 at 21:46:08:
Did you also check the included databases with analysis on the Marin DVD? I believe in many of the critical lines he has more analysis there than he presents in the short video clips. There was a backup line against 6.Bd3 in the Austrian in the database, for one thing.

Yer. Quickly. Although the games did not look so current tbh and I've only played:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Bg4
in blitz.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #56 - 07/14/19 at 21:46:08
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 07/14/19 at 15:55:55:
I don't think any major theoretical saves were presented though and I would play these lines only against weaker opposition.

[...]

Also it felt quite crazy to have these masses of sharp lines presented in like 6-14min video clips. I would need a detailed book or computer to want to play this stuff pretty much.

Did you also check the included databases with analysis on the Marin DVD? I believe in many of the critical lines he has more analysis there than he presents in the short video clips. There was a backup line against 6.Bd3 in the Austrian in the database, for one thing.
  

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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #55 - 07/14/19 at 18:52:13
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 07/14/19 at 15:55:55:
So I've now also chugged down Marin's second DVD (aggresive lines). While interesting it was also somewhat filled with lines that do not have the best reputation. I don't think any major theoretical saves were presented though and I would play these lines only against weaker opposition.


Are you talking about 6...Cbd7 against the Austrian Attack ¿ On the 6. Ae3 line he gives 6...b6 which is the main line. In Davies book, he gives I think 6...Cbd7, which is less crazy. Both sides need to know what they are doing in these lines though. I remember few years ago I played 6. Ae3 b6 against an attacking player, and he basically collapsed before move 15 because he had no idea what he was doing  Cheesy

Did you see the extra database in his 2th DWD on 5...0-0 6. Ad3 Ca6 ¿ I would prefer to play that than the weird 6...Cbd7. Those files were very interesting, I remember there was this concept where White puts his bitchop on c4, Marin gave some lines where Black springs with ...Cb4, then if a3 simply leaves it en prise and develops, since ...axb4 cxb4 attacks both White's pieces on c3 and c4.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #54 - 07/14/19 at 18:47:01
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The 5....c5 line is interesting but if you are using Marin's book you need look at the 6 Bb5+ line, in particular 9 h3. After 9..cxd4 10 Qxd4 Nc6 he doesn't mention 11 Qa4 which has been played in correspondence a few times. It is tricky and the computer doesn't really understand the potential resulting endgame. Similarly in the same line I'm a little sceptical of his 12...0-0!? N recommendation....I think white can improve on his suggested line and get a good game.

Other than those two small points I think GM Marin has done an excellent job and the line seems to hold up well.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #53 - 07/14/19 at 15:55:55
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Hi.

So I've now also chugged down Marin's second DVD (aggresive lines). While interesting it was also somewhat filled with lines that do not have the best reputation. I don't think any major theoretical saves were presented though and I would play these lines only against weaker opposition.

Also it felt quite crazy to have these masses of sharp lines presented in like 6-14min video clips. I would need a detailed book or computer to want to play this stuff pretty much.

I'd say get the book and skip these DVD's unless you are interested in the presentation (which chess-wise was quite clear and interesting).

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #52 - 07/13/19 at 11:52:39
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Hi.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/13/19 at 01:06:15:
I remember he also gave extra analysis files in that DWD. It was about the line 5...0-0 6. Ad3 Ca6 7. 0-0 c5 8. d5 Ag4, which is the same line that Davies recommends in his Pirc book. This setup is my favourite against Austrian Attack.

Yea. This line makes quite a bit of positional sense. If I could go back I would have played it more than I've done.

Still sad to read in the introduction that Marin gave up on my personal favourite:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Rb8
Five years ago because of 9.Qe2 though. Seems a bit needless because I don't see why this would be especially displeasing for black after the rare 9...Bg4; which also looks a bit like his more favoured 8...Bg4 incidentally.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/13/19 at 01:06:15:
In the actual DWD, he recommends 6...Cbd7, which is definitely not the main line.

Cool. Will be interesting but when I've looked at this before (briefly) I was not convinced.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 07/13/19 at 01:06:15:
I was expecting Marin to cover this line in his Pirc book. 5...c5 is theoretically fine for Black, but requires much memorisation and is more unintuitive compared to 5...0-0.

Yea. But now we got a nice book on 5...c5 Grin

Good day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #51 - 07/13/19 at 01:06:15
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There is big difference in 2th DWD because he recommends 5...0-0 instead of 5...c5 against Austrian Attack.

I remember he also gave extra analysis files in that DWD. It was about the line 5...0-0 6. Ad3 Ca6 7. 0-0 c5 8. d5 Ag4, which is the same line that Davies recommends in his Pirc book. This setup is my favourite against Austrian Attack. It looks like some sort Classical Modern Benoni, except against 1. e4. In the actual DWD, he recommends 6...Cbd7, which is definitely not the main line.

I was expecting Marin to cover this line in his Pirc book. 5...c5 is theoretically fine for Black, but requires much memorisation and is more unintuitive compared to 5...0-0.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #50 - 07/12/19 at 23:18:30
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Hi.

I've been watching Marin's Pirc DVDs from 2014. Started with DVD 1 (positional lines) and liked it. His 6...c6 classical stuff is impressive and almost makes me want to try it out. Without having compared I think it's basically the same stuff as covered in his GM Rep book; although for some reason having it communicated in video format made it feel much more appealing to try out Smiley

There is also some 3.f3, Fianchetto and 150-attack (Be3/Nf3/Qd2) with a6 and later b5 before Nc6. An interesting way of playing, the last one.

Now for the juicy DVD 2 (aggressive lines), where as I recall the recommendations differed a lot more from the GM rep book. I think this second one might be worth getting even if you have the book. As of now I don't really see the need to get the first one.

Have a nice night.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #49 - 03/14/18 at 19:21:35
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Yeah, you're right of course, for some reason I only thought about 3...Bg7 and not 3...d6.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #48 - 03/14/18 at 10:33:53
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mn wrote on 03/14/18 at 06:32:41:
True enough - but the Pirc transposition forces Black into early ...Bg7 lines, right?


I don't see why, can you give a line which forces this on Black?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #47 - 03/14/18 at 06:32:41
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True enough - but the Pirc transposition forces Black into early ...Bg7 lines, right?
  
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JEH
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #46 - 03/14/18 at 05:03:15
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mn wrote on 03/14/18 at 01:38:03:
Can't you just go 3...d5 - ?


Yes, however a Pirc player could go 1. ...d6 which helps against Bf4 as you can delay Nf6 and punch the Bishop on the nose with e5, however if such a player fears a Pirc transposition, then they shouldn't be playing the Pirc  Wink

Anyone who wants to avoid the Pirc transposition could go d5.


« Last Edit: 03/14/18 at 06:25:01 by JEH »  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #45 - 03/14/18 at 01:38:03
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Can't you just go 3...d5 - ?
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #44 - 03/14/18 at 00:18:49
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:41:17:
Black definitely needs to meet it. My hope was that Marin instead would come up with some set of analysed lines where white is prevented from reaching the exact position after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6

Although then all of the following lines needed to be scrapped in the repertoire:


There's more.

After 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4, continuing with 2.  .. g6 3. Nc3 runs into the same problem.

As a consequence I've revised my assessment of 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 from "nice to be told at move 2 it's a London system" to "beware dangerous transpositions to 150 attacks".
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #43 - 03/13/18 at 22:46:29
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Good evening.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:41:17:
I would have liked for Marin to repair this specific problem in another way though (not that I am sure that is possible on the other hand).
RdC wrote on 03/13/18 at 09:39:33:
It's a standard idea for White, to play Bh6, exchange on g7 and then play e5. That's going to crop up in a number of positions and doesn't Black need some ways of meeting it?

Black definitely needs to meet it. My hope was that Marin instead would come up with some set of analysed lines where white is prevented from reaching the exact position after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6

Although then all of the following lines needed to be scrapped in the repertoire:
a) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6
b) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 Nbd7 7.Bh6
c) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6
d) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bg5 0-0 6.Qd2 c6 7.Bh6 Nbd7
e) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bf4 c6 6.Qd2 Nbd7 7.Bh6

In some ways the sheer amount of rethinking needed makes it understandable that Marin did what he did (strengthening the old line). Still seems to me like there are clear alternatives to at least a couple of these lines so maybe it is not a complete impossibility to piece an alternative set of replies open.

Have a nice night.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #42 - 03/13/18 at 09:39:33
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:41:17:
Problem is the line could quite realistically, despite the improvements, be bad.


It's a standard idea for White, to play Bh6, exchange on g7 and then play e5. That's going to crop up in a number of positions and doesn't Black need some ways of meeting it? Allowing the pawn to reach f7 could easily become unpleasant.

It's a position that can be reached from 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 as well
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #41 - 03/13/18 at 06:22:24
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:41:17:
Problem is the line could quite realistically, despite the improvements, be bad.


Well the Pirc is a bed of roses, i.e watch out for the thorns!  Wink



  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #40 - 03/13/18 at 01:41:17
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Hi.

Maybe you can have that mindset and then drop it once you conclude the line is indeed bad. Don't really see the harm.

I would have liked for Marin to repair this specific problem in another way though (not that I am sure that is possible on the other hand).

Problem is the line could quite realistically, despite the improvements, be bad.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #39 - 03/12/18 at 20:32:25
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From the update (page 9):
"My original conclusion about this position on pages 210-211 was that White had a clear advantage in view of the threat of e5-e6 and his better development. After having my attention drawn to the possible transpositions, I had a closer look at the position and found it entirely viable for Black."
Interesting... It looks like 'This position is worse, so I don't recommend playing like this... Oh, wait, I must recommend it due to transpositional possibilities. So it not so bad at all' Wink
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #38 - 03/12/18 at 09:55:55
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Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #37 - 01/21/18 at 09:06:23
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That's what I love about this forum, that it can pin point such move order details!

Note on p39, Marin says - "why I now prefer 7. ...Qc7 over 7. ...Nbd7" and "Black experiences some micro-problems"

So it's a preference issue, one being a micro bit better than the other. So for a GM (a bit of a clue the book title there  Wink), he could play Qc7 when he can, Nbd7 when he couldn't, and not be bothered.

For us lesser mortals, if you have a problem not being able to only play one line, then I don't think the Pirc is the right defence for you. You need 2, 3 or more lines against the main stuff, so you can bob and weave like a slippery duck   Cheesy
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #36 - 01/21/18 at 08:45:07
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Hi.

Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/20/18 at 18:00:10:
Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/02/18 at 08:29:25:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3



I just bought this book and I don't see a suggestion for black after 6. Nf3. Probably I missed something?

Nope. 6.Nf3 in the above sequence is not covered in the book. Troubling I would say.

When this omission was mentioned there was also an interesting supplementary observation made that got attention as well however. That was that from this out of repertoire position after 6.Nf3 white could try and steer towards something like the classical variation but then the knight development on d7 would prohibit a clean (re)entry into Marin's suggested classical line. Compare:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Qc7!? 7.a4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 e5 (Line with knight on d7 from 4.Be3 move order)
plus
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.h3 Qc7 8.Be3 e5 9.a4 exd4 (Marin's classical line - see p.62)
and also
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.h3 Nbd7 8.a4 Qc7 9.Be3 (which Marin mentions on p.39)

So not only does black have to contend with being on his own after 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 if he is not careful he may end up in a classical setup that he does not usually play. Obviously which and how good/bad options black has got picked up as a subjects here after these things became apparent.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #35 - 01/20/18 at 18:00:10
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/02/18 at 08:29:25:
[b]1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3



I just bought this book and I don't see a suggestion for black after 6. Nf3. Probably I missed something?
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #34 - 01/02/18 at 08:29:25
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Hello and welcome to the forum. Smiley

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Qc7 7.a4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 b6 10.Nd2

Is what Marin doesn't like (see Marin 2017 p.40). He only gives 10...Bb7 though.

Have a nice year all.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #33 - 01/01/18 at 14:18:18
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Hi,

with great interest I have followed your discussion. However, I would really like to know what the problem with 9. ...b6 is supposed to be. I've been playing the Pirc for quite some time now and always relied on this line.
Does anyone know where Marin sees the problems there?

Thank you!

Have a good start into the new year,

Hale-Bopp
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #32 - 12/28/17 at 10:54:02
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 12/26/17 at 18:32:59:
Thanks for the game. I'd only had a very quick look at the line. Seems I'm in good company with Ulf  Wink

It highlights the point of the waiting move, in that after Qd2, the Qb1 plan is no longer available.

It's a very subtle and tricky opening for both players  Smiley

I just thought now about how moving the f3 knight in these structures is a common plan. Usually it goes to d2 but in the position after 9...Re8 maybe 10.Ng5!? can be tried; otherwise 10.Nd2 e5 11.d5 cxd5 12.exd5 and it seems harsh to believe this is so bad for black.
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Qc7 7.a4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 Re8 10.Ng5!?
(10...b6 11.f4) I suspect is not so great for black but I guess it should be playable.
(10...e5 11.Bc4) Seems dangerous.
(10...h6!? 11.Nf3) And while it is not obvious white has got anything major from his knight manouvre, by involving the queen against the now more exposed h-pawn, he will likely win back the tempo he lost. The general idea then is that black's advanced h-pawn counts slightly against him positionally; even if a long game is likely needed for it to have a chance to be a liability at some point.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #31 - 12/26/17 at 18:32:59
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/26/17 at 18:21:00:
Using your 9...Re8 it seems like Ulf Andersson managed to achieve a result that was satisfactory (for both parties Smiley).


Thanks for the game. I'd only had a very quick look at the line. Seems I'm in good company with Ulf  Wink

It highlights the point of the waiting move, in that after Qd2, the Qb1 plan is no longer available.

It's a very subtle and tricky opening for both players  Smiley
  

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #30 - 12/26/17 at 18:21:00
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Hello.

JEH wrote on 12/26/17 at 13:05:30:
Inspired by the Ivanchuck waiting move 9. ..Re8! in the Accelerated Classical, how about 9. ..Re8, so after e5, e4 is immediately under threat, but Black isn't committed to e5 just yet.

It does look like a constructive move with some points behind it. To avoid going into something like the following related series of moves (not liked by Marin, see "Grandmaster Repertoire - The Pirc Defence", p.62)
(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.a4 Qc7 8.Be3 e5 9.h3 Re8 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.a5)

A practical point, whenever you've played e5 as black, would probably be to try Nxe5. For example:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.a4 Qc7 8.Be3
Granted not really the move order discussed earlier. Moving on though...
8...Nbd7 9.h3 Re8 10.a5 e5 11.dxe5 Nxe5
and we've avoided something similar to the above line.

Or you can try postponing e7-e5 for a while longer. In fact...
Using your 9...Re8 it seems like Ulf Andersson managed to achieve a result that was satisfactory (for both parties Smiley).


Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #29 - 12/26/17 at 13:05:30
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pirc kid wrote on 12/23/17 at 22:34:29:
As in Chapter 1 explained, if White aims for the well known classical setup, Marin explained why to avoid this line

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.h3 Nbd7 8.a4 Qc7 9.Be3

where Marin see problems with both 9...b6 and 9...e5, and therefore wanted to avoid it in the first place.  Instead he recommends 7... Qc7 followed by quick e5 and exd4.

[snip]

Did I miss anything?


Inspired by the Ivanchuck waiting move 9. ..Re8! in the Accelerated Classical, how about 9. ..Re8, so after e5, e4 is immediately under threat, but Black isn't committed to e5 just yet.


  

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #28 - 12/25/17 at 15:17:32
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Hi.

pirc kid wrote on 12/23/17 at 22:34:29:
Did I miss anything?

Nope. This appears to be a definite move order problem related to the repertoire.

pirc kid wrote on 12/23/17 at 22:34:29:
Other 6th moves such as 6...e5 (7.de5 de5, 8.Bc4 Bg7, 9.Qd6) or 6...Bg7 (7.e5) are not that convincing.

Yes. Not so easy to play black at all after 6.Nf3.

Maybe 6...Qa5 is the only move that does not present immediate drawbacks; although I am not saying there won't be any in the future.

After 6...e5:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 e5 7.dxe5 dxe5 8.Bc4 Bg7?
Is not so good and black can play a bit tougher.
Maybe 8...h6 and white is robbed of Ng5 at least.
8...Bb4 is an idea as well when white should probably play 9.0-0(!) with good chances to put pressure on black, although not without some decent play still being needed.

If 6...Qc7 7.a4 maybe 7...e5 is now an alternative as well. Ok that there might be some questons if this Qc7+Nbd7 setup really has a future or if you are just playing moves as black.

and of course 6...Bg7 7.Be2 (or 7.Qd2, which I would probably slightly prefer even) is possible but I don't see how to steer away from Marin's line in a reasonable way.

Have a nice day.
  
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Reply #27 - 12/23/17 at 22:34:29
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As in Chapter 1 explained, if White aims for the well known classical setup, Marin explained why to avoid this line

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.h3 Nbd7 8.a4 Qc7 9.Be3

where Marin see problems with both 9...b6 and 9...e5, and therefore wanted to avoid it in the first place.  Instead he recommends 7... Qc7 followed by quick e5 and exd4.

This White setup is often reached through different move orders, often started as accelerated classical. I think Marin contradicts his repertoire against this setup with chapter 9.

In chapter 9 his chosen move order is 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 (the chapter only deals with 6.f4 and 6.g4, no mentioning of transpositions)

So if White plays now 6.Nf3 aiming for the same setup as above, the obvious problem is, that blacks knight is already on d7. If Black now goes 6...Qc7, 7.a4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0, 9.0-0 we reach the same position as above, which Marin wants to avoid.

Other 6th moves such as 6...e5 (7.de5 de5, 8.Bc4 Bg7, 9.Qd6) or 6...Bg7 (7.e5) are not that convincing.

Or I play 4.Le3 c6, 5.h3 Bg7 to solve the classical problem but have to skip Marins repertoire after 6.f4

Did I miss anything?
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #26 - 12/11/17 at 01:21:54
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Hi.

dali wrote on 12/10/17 at 17:07:44:
there's lots of analysis. it's in the book.

Quite right. Smiley

Have a nice day.
  
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Reply #25 - 12/10/17 at 17:07:44
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there's lots of analysis. it's in the book.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #24 - 12/10/17 at 12:31:42
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Hi.

TD wrote on 12/08/17 at 09:46:02:
"Nikos with a quick overview on the Mihail Marin book, Grandmaster Repertoire – Pirc Defence"

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/6300

Much appreciated these kind of things it seems. I personally think it's a nice way to promote the book.

Hopefully there will be some analysis coming later as well.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #23 - 12/08/17 at 09:46:02
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"Nikos with a quick overview on the Mihail Marin book, Grandmaster Repertoire – Pirc Defence"

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/6300
  
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Reply #22 - 11/09/17 at 06:16:31
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Reply #21 - 11/08/17 at 11:07:20
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http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1891394

I am far less impressed than Gewgaw.
  

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #20 - 11/08/17 at 09:38:39
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gewgaw wrote on 11/07/17 at 12:20:46:
Check the game Naidisch - Ponomarjov


Could someone post the game here?
  

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #19 - 11/08/17 at 08:04:07
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 11/07/17 at 15:30:31:
gewgaw wrote on 11/07/17 at 12:20:46:
looks like a refutation of the Pirc


One of them,  Grin

In fact Chesspub forum tradition dictates there needs to be posted on the forum at least one new "refutation" of the Pirc every year.

Or, some say, the Pirc will get unrefuted for ever Shocked


gewgaw wrote on 11/07/17 at 12:20:46:
http://en.chessbase.com/post/european-team-championship-2017-live

Check the game Naidisch - Ponomarjov, looks like a refutation of the Pirc. What is Marin`s set up against it?

He goes 5...Nbd7 and if 6.g4 b5 (! - Marin) 7.a3 he doesn't go 7...Bg7.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #18 - 11/07/17 at 15:30:31
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gewgaw wrote on 11/07/17 at 12:20:46:
looks like a refutation of the Pirc


One of them,  Grin
  

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #17 - 11/07/17 at 12:20:46
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http://en.chessbase.com/post/european-team-championship-2017-live

Check the game Naidisch - Ponomarjov, looks like a refutation of the Pirc. What is Marin`s set up against it?
  

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Reply #16 - 10/14/17 at 10:12:09
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Thanks for the updates!  Smiley
  
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Reply #15 - 10/13/17 at 00:24:58
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Marin recommends 8…fxe6, while also providing some analysis of 8…Bxb5 9.exf7+ Kf8 as a way of keeping the game going.

Andrew Greet on the QC blog on the Austrian Attack main line (Bb5+, e5, e6).
  
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Reply #14 - 10/11/17 at 23:41:18
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Hello.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 (5.Nf3 Bg7; 5.h3 Nbd7; 5.Qd2 Nbd7)
and
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6

Are now confirmed as being recommended in the book.
http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/6223#comment-344149

Only a few more weeks...

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #13 - 10/07/17 at 14:46:05
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Hello.

picasso911 wrote on 10/07/17 at 10:42:07:
Honestly, I'm a bit disappointed after reading the excerpt.

In the first place, his recommendations in the Austrian with 5...c5 look to me slightly irritating considering Marin's great games and results with 5...0-0/6...Na6. It seems, he primarily wants his book to be a little more different from his previous DVDs and maybe from Tiger's book as well.

Secondly, I thought he would present a bunch of his own games explaining his thought process in the middlegames and the resulting endgames. Instead, after the "naked" (certainly strong!) moves in theory, there is just an evaluation and unfortunately no more middlegame plans or motifs to remember for the reader.

The 5...c5 Austrian (and certainly the 5.a3 0-0 6.Nf3 c5 in the excerpt) is a lot about playing the right moves and sequences and is fundamentally a lot more principled way of playing compared to the strategic wizardry of 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Na6. I suppose therefore that if there is some imbalance towards concreteness over strategic considerations, in the Austrian part of the book at least, it would seem fairly ok for me. That being said I too was hoping for 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Na6. Tongue

Most interesting of all for me though is how well or unwell Marin weaves in strategy in the 4.Be3 c6 chapters. Here, even if the moves given are good ones, one can certainly make the argument that some basic strategic understanding of the positions is good for an author to convey to the reader.

Given that 4.Be3 c6 is the line chosen there is presumably also a good chance that the 6...c6 classical will be seen (otherwise for example black would have to do something clever after 4.Be3 c6 5.Be2 - although I'm not saying this should be a total impossibility). Here some strategic wisdom from Marin would be welcome. Black's task strategically is not really so easy imo.

Have a nice day.

  
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Reply #12 - 10/07/17 at 10:42:07
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Honestly, I'm a bit disappointed after reading the excerpt.

In the first place, his recommendations in the Austrian with 5...c5 look to me slightly irritating considering Marin's great games and results with 5...0-0/6...Na6. It seems, he primarily wants his book to be a little more different from his previous DVDs and maybe from Tiger's book as well.

Secondly, I thought he would present a bunch of his own games explaining his thought process in the middlegames and the resulting endgames. Instead, after the "naked" (certainly strong!) moves in theory, there is just an evaluation and unfortunately no more middlegame plans or motifs to remember for the reader.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #11 - 10/05/17 at 10:50:54
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Hello.

We have a release date. Smiley

From QC blog:
The QC publication date of “The Pirc Defence” by Mihail Marin and “Sharp Endgames” by Lund will be November 1. I know that date is a holiday in some countries, so I guess chess shops in those holidaying countries will have the books a day later.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #10 - 09/22/17 at 09:07:26
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Hi.

And it seems almost certainly also:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6

Good, good. Smiley
Nice day all.

  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #9 - 09/20/17 at 18:08:47
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So 5. ...c5 against the Austrian and different recommendations to his DVD!

  

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #8 - 09/20/17 at 15:23:52
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The excerpt for “The Pirc Defence” is available now: http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/PircDefence-excerpt.pdf
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #7 - 09/02/17 at 16:14:13
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Hello.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 08/21/17 at 16:17:36:
I hope Marin goes for 6...a6 and expands theory a bit in this variation.

Another line that could be interesting is:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 a6!? 6.0-0 Nc6
I'm not quite sure what is best, although for now I think the most difficult is...
7.Re1
(7.a4 0-0 transposes to 6...a6 while avoiding 7.Re1. This is a big point behind the move order).
(7.d5 Nb8!? Is maybe even a little bit positionally more risky than Na7 despite optically putting the knight more sensibly. Now e6 is the plan for black and if 8.Nd4 0-0 since black essentially has the positional c5+b5 threat 9.a4 seems best although now 9...e6 and if 10.dxe6 Bxe6! 11.Nxe6 fxe6 and I'm not sure this is so bad for black. Maybe white is marginally better somehow but I reckon black should be OK.)
Against other white seventh moves a6 and Nc6 should be quite decent to have played for black as well - they are very natural moves.


...When I very briefly thought this was a good time to go for a certain kind of setup with:
7...e6
Only...
8.a4! b6?! 9.a5 b5 10.e5
Very disappointingly is at least +=, meaning black has to play something less principled than 8...b6 and allow white to clamp down with a4-a5.

Instead though maybe:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 a6!? 6.0-0 Nc6 7.Re1 Bg4!?
Is a little bit stronger than usual (a6 should be useful Re1 I don't know how much), with critical line looking to me like:
8.d5 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Ne5 10.Be2 c6 and yea... It seems like a game. White has some grip, although black is quite solid and it's not obvious how white will actually put on pressure.

Also there is:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 a6!? 6.0-0 Nc6 7.Re1 0-0
With effortless transposition to the line 5...0-0 6.0-0 a6 7.Re1 Nc6. In other words I don't think black is losing much by using this move order.


Posted just to share a few thoughts basically; not that I think it's going to be in the book. Anyway. Pre-release excitement is building here Smiley.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #6 - 08/21/17 at 16:17:36
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Hi.

TN wrote on 08/21/17 at 07:08:22:
Thanks for the links! Marin already recorded a nice two-volume DVD series for ChessBase, I'm interested to see where his recommendations vary - in a book there's clearly more scope to give lines requiring a very precise follow-up. With books such as 'Playing 1.e4' and 'A Practical Repertoire for Black' published since, there's plenty of scope for further analysis!

Ah! Something to watch before the book comes out.

TN wrote on 08/21/17 at 07:08:22:
Part of me would like to see two recommendations against each main line, though I am a demanding reader!

As long as there is a well researched main option I am happy. Smiley

TN wrote on 08/21/17 at 07:08:22:
I feel the biggest nuisance is actually 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0, since White seems to hold a positional advantage in all lines. I guess a key to playing the Pirc successfully is to accept that you are objectively a little worse and be comfortable in the arising unbalanced positions. Against 4.Be3 I like the 4...c6 approach with ...Nbd7, whereas 4.f4 has looked less critical of late due to recent developments in the 4...Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 variation (though 5...c5 is also fine, of course).

The classical is a bit of a challenge indeed. With precise play from white it is basically not so easy to equalise completely in any of the black 6th move lines.

I hope Marin goes for 6...a6 and expands theory a bit in this variation. There are some great strategic lines to be figured out if black is allowed to go Nc6+e5. For example:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 a6 7.a4 Nc6 8.Be3!? e5 (8...Ng4!? ; 8...Re8!?) 9.d5 Ne7 10.Nd2 and probably 10...b6 (or maybe even 10...a5) with a long fight ahead. If this was a Gligoric KID white could be said to have reached some kind of ideal setup. In the Pirc version the c-pawn is  blocked on c2 making the strategic picture considerably more blurred.
Also in the main line:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 a6 7.Re1 something like: 7...Nc6 8.d5 Na7!? As played by Carlsen and a growing list of players 9.a4 e6!? Is also a very interesting structure (9...e5 i like considerably less although it has been seen as well).

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #5 - 08/21/17 at 07:08:22
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Thanks for the links! Marin already recorded a nice two-volume DVD series for ChessBase, I'm interested to see where his recommendations vary - in a book there's clearly more scope to give lines requiring a very precise follow-up. With books such as 'Playing 1.e4' and 'A Practical Repertoire for Black' published since, there's plenty of scope for further analysis!

I feel the biggest nuisance is actually 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0, since White seems to hold a positional advantage in all lines. I guess a key to playing the Pirc successfully is to accept that you are objectively a little worse and be comfortable in the arising unbalanced positions. Against 4.Be3 I like the 4...c6 approach with ...Nbd7, whereas 4.f4 has looked less critical of late due to recent developments in the 4...Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 variation (though 5...c5 is also fine, of course).

Part of me would like to see two recommendations against each main line, though I am a demanding reader!
  

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #4 - 08/18/17 at 07:43:56
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Hello.

GM rep Pirc is coming closer to release. Not much information on the book yet. Here is what I have seen on the QC blog.

Book probably being released in september
http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/6129#comment-341342
(see #24 for question)

Seems like 100% Pirc lines (no modern)
http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/6129#comment-341275

Have a nice day.
  
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Reply #3 - 06/20/17 at 09:27:28
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Great news!  Smiley

As Quality Chess already published a large book by Tiger Hillarp Persson based in some extent on the Pirc, I'm very curious to see Marin's (probably) different approach and recommendations.  Cheesy
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #2 - 02/07/17 at 19:41:02
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/07/17 at 15:34:29:
Hello.

Quality Chess just announced that they are releasing a GM repertoire book on the Pirc written by by GM Mihail Marin Cool (Expected release summer 2017)
http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/5829

Happy times. Grin


Amazing news.
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
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JEH
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"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #1 - 02/07/17 at 16:49:50
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Smiley

Smiley Smiley Double Woot!  Smiley Smiley

Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Confused_by_Theory
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GM repertoire - Pirc
02/07/17 at 15:34:29
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Hello.

Quality Chess just announced that they are releasing a GM repertoire book on the Pirc written by by GM Mihail Marin Cool (Expected release summer 2017)
http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/5829

Also Negi is bound to cover some white line against the Pirc with customary excellence in his upcoming 1.e4 vs. Minor Defences Cheesy (also expected for summer 2017)

Happy times. Grin
  
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