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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C09 : 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy (Read 12050 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: C09 : 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #17 - 11/06/23 at 14:12:02
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I went ahead and bought Miedema's ebook. I think he did a very good job. It looks like Black has several good systems after 3Nd2 c5 4exd exd 4Nf3. I'm going through them to see which I prefer.

Visually and according to Stockfish, Black is very close to equality in several lines. The issue then is subjective. At one point Miedema says something like this - White can play this (vs. IQP) for a long time. However, on most occassions, he likes Black's play with the isolated queen pawn.

In the main lines, Black places his king knight on e7. Black has two move orders. They often transpose, but a careful player of the White pieces can send them down distinct paths.  Marin (Modern-chess) chose 6...cxd. Miedema discusses both moves, but recommends 6...Bd6 instead. As Miedema published more recently, he has the last (published) word. However, I think both moves remain viable.

Miedema also promotes less well known systems where Black places his knights classically on f6 and c6.

The ForwardChess eBook works very well. I'm able to access it from my main laptop. When it is turned off and recharging, I can access it from an older laptop. When waiting in an office, I can bring it up on an 8 inch tablet!

Despite the fact that Miedema's book is probably all one needs as Black, I went ahead and bought two ebooks on sale at Modern-Chess. They can be viewed on line, or dowloaded as PGN files. Catellanos is a proponent of 3Nd2. Marin (like Miedema) is a proponent of 3Nd2 c5 4exd exd for Black.

It should be noted that some positions can arise from the Alapin Sicilian. There will be subtle differences based on White's having played c3 early, but I suspect these favor Black.
« Last Edit: 11/06/23 at 20:05:55 by FreeRepublic »  
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Nernstian59
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Re: C09 : 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #16 - 10/22/23 at 20:38:25
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FreeRepublic wrote on 10/19/23 at 15:29:16:
I'll suggest another 11th move for Black, ...Nd6.

Playing the French by Aagaard and Ntirlis has brief coverage of 11...Nd6. The move is described as a recommendation by Eingorn. Ntirlis says he likes the placement of the knight on d6, where it covers the important c4- and e4-squares. He adds that his analysis hasn't found an edge for White here, though no details are given.  He stops with 11...Nd6.

Although Ntirlis notes that 4...exd5 was his favorite way to meet the Tarrasch for many years, he and Aagaard join the multitude of other authors in recommending 4...Qxd5. According to Ntirlis' analysis, 10.Nd4 instead of 10.Nb3 in the 4...exd5 line leads to a small White edge.  Thus, the two authors don't endorse 4...exd5. The line is included in their book because it offers useful ideas to those playing the French from the Black side.
  
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Re: C09 : 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #15 - 10/20/23 at 06:15:27
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FreeRepublic wrote on 10/19/23 at 21:35:55:
Miedema provides three chapters (out of 12) on this, according to the ForwardChess website.

Two actually, Chapter 6 deals with 10.Nb3, 11...Nd6 and chapter 7 with 10.Re1. Chpater 5 offers 7...Qxd7
  

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Re: C09 : 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #14 - 10/19/23 at 21:35:55
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FreeRepublic wrote on 10/19/23 at 15:29:16:
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Ngf3 Nf6


I recall that this was covered, among other lines, by Pedersen in his book on the Tarrasch French. I don't have my copy with me now.

Miedema provides three chapters (out of 12) on this, according to the ForwardChess website.
  
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Re: C09 : 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #13 - 10/19/23 at 15:29:16
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/27/21 at 20:32:15:
So what should we think of the following?

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Ngf3 Nf6 6. Bb5 Bd7 7. Bd7 Nbd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dc5 Nc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 Qd7 12. f3 Nd6 13. Nc5 Qc7 or 13...Qc8


I'll suggest another 11th move for Black, ...Nd6.

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. ed5 ed5 5. Ngf3 Nf6 6. Bb5 Bd7 7.
Bd7 Nbd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dc5 Nc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 Nd6!? with Black castling the next move.

* * * * * * * *
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*

Perhaps Black can claim equality now. Still, once one has equalized, then what? You have an entire game to play. I can see someone familiarizing himself with this middle game and considering his opening preparation against the Tarrasch complete.

A possible continuation would be. 12. Qf3 O-O 13. Nf5 Nf5 14. Qf5 a5 or Re8.

I admit in advance that this is easier to play at home with the help of an engine, than over-the-board. Yet it does not look as though White has much.
  
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Re: C09 : 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #12 - 06/28/21 at 10:45:09
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Not sure what Tarrasch preferred instead, but to my mind the surest way to get an IQP as White against the French would be to play an Exchange Variation and follow up with 4.c4.
  
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Re: C09 : 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #11 - 06/27/21 at 23:53:37
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/27/21 at 20:32:15:
Tarrasch vs. Tarrasch

"He who fears an isolated queen pawn should give up chess," Siegbert Tarrasch.

So what should we think of the following?

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Ngf3 Nf6 6. Bb5 Bd7 7. Bd7 Nbd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dc5 Nc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 Qd7 12. f3 Nd6 13. Nc5 Qc7 or 13...Qc8


I read somewhere that later in his career Tarrasch changed his mind and no longer recommended "his" line 3.Nd2 against the French - precisely because Black would be able to get an IQP position and he would rather play with the IQP than against it.
  

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Re: C09 : 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #10 - 06/27/21 at 20:32:15
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Tarrasch vs. Tarrasch

"He who fears an isolated queen pawn should give up chess," Siegbert Tarrasch.

So what should we think of the following?

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Ngf3 Nf6 6. Bb5 Bd7 7. Bd7 Nbd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dc5 Nc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 Qd7 12. f3 Nd6 13. Nc5 Qc7 or 13...Qc8
  
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #9 - 02/18/17 at 20:38:00
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P. S. There is also a DVD by Sokolov, Sokolov Explains, where parts 2–4 are all directly or indirectly about IQP positions. A lot of the material is the same as in his book, but it's more narrowly focused, largely on the Tarrasch Queen's Gambit, the central pawn break, and symmetrical positions with d4 against d5 (i.e. after a piece exchange on d5 in an IQP position).
  

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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #8 - 02/18/17 at 19:51:39
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Both the Baburin and Sokolov books on the IQP look excellent, everybody raves about them. Haven't studied them in depth myself yet. I've relied on Silman's material on this in Reassess Your Chess 3rd ed., which is quite good but not enough for my current level (and his coverage of IQP positions in the totally rewritten 4th edition is even shallower).

I have done very well with the French Tarrasch as White. Many Black players seem poorly prepared for it, whichever line they play (I'm speaking of opponents everywhere from 1600 to 2300). I don't know the theory that well myself either...

Stylistically, compared to the IQP stuff I'm more happy to see 3...Nf6 played, especially when followed up with 11...Qc7 or 11...Qb6 in the traditional main line. This is supposed to be Black's sharpest and most combative way of playing, but with the bad bishop and the e6 pawn in the way of his pieces, he needs to know some concrete ideas to avoid ending up in a bind early on. But then I "always" prefer strategically complex middlegames to more simplified or technical positions, so I may not be a typical 3.Nd2 player.

As Black I've done well with 3.Nd2 c5 intending the IQP line 4.exd5 exd5 5.Ngf3 Nf6 while allowing (and, to be honest, hoping for) the "Universal System" with 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7, but the number of games is too small to read anything into this. I'm sure some painful IQP losses are just around the corner here if I don't study up on it or switch lines.
  

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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #7 - 02/18/17 at 17:40:24
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No, I mean they go for it but are not particularly good at it. Sometimes after a while they look a little in over their heads, or surprised that it's not as easy as they thought.
« Last Edit: 02/19/17 at 16:46:45 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #6 - 02/18/17 at 17:22:38
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Thank you all for your suggestions !

ReneDescartes wrote on 02/17/17 at 17:07:05:
In my experience, a lot of White players think of the French devotee as preferring closed positions and don't expect it. I think they are, strange as it may sound, a little intimidated. They know this has the rich history of a fundamental main line and they know they're not too booked on it--they are used to the 3...Nf6,3...Be7, and 3...c5 4.exd5 Qxd5 positions recommended by all just-French repertoire books to date. But with my modest talent I'm not exactly playing grandmasters all the time.


That feels strange to me. True, I always see french players around me going for the 3..Nf6 line, since they want to keep the 'french-like structure' in every occasion (Steinitz, advance). But I would expect the white player of the Tarrasch being a more positional oriented player, more at ease against an isolani.
But for me, the french is a fresh opening. Roll Eyes
  
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #5 - 02/18/17 at 16:33:14
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Speaking of old Korchnoi days, that 6...cd reminds me of another of his Candidates matches (vs. Hübner).
  
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #4 - 02/18/17 at 09:22:58
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As mentioned in the quote, the Karpov-Korchnoi match contains a lot of good strategic material for this line.

In terms of modern experts, Short, Ponkratov, Ivanchuk and Zvjaginsev seem the main players to follow, although various other Russian GMs have tried it in one-off games. For instance, Short recently played 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.exd5 exd5 6.Bb5 cxd4 against Howell and Safarli, for a win and draw:





Not that I analysed either game, but this could work against players overly dependent on the computer.
  

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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #3 - 02/17/17 at 23:08:07
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I sometimes play the French but always go Nf6. I'm 2020 FIDE and curious to know what strength of players are going exd5.
« Last Edit: 03/02/17 at 08:44:19 by GMTonyKosten »  
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