Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Options against the Panov (Read 5484 times)
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4488
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #11 - 03/14/17 at 22:47:51
Post Tools
Pantu wrote on 03/14/17 at 20:38:25:
The problem with the Semi-Tarrasch approach is that black has already taken on d4, so white is doing better in this version than the Semi-Tarrasch.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Bd3 Be7 8.O-O O-O 9.a3 is the mainline in the Semi-Tarrasch, when 9...cxd4 10.exd4 Bf6 is reasonable.

Instead 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 6.Nf3 Be7 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Bd3 O-O 9.O-O Nc6 10.Re1! (10.a3 transposes) is strong for white and scores well.


Yes, that 10. Re1 belongs to the "old main lines" I had in mind, reached via the traditional (albeit perhaps suboptimal) move order with 7...cxd4.  I've mostly seen 10. Re1 regarded as leading to +=, though I'm not aware of a recent serious treatment of it.

I'm reminded that of the possiblities after 10. Re1, one of them, 10...Nf6, has appeared in a couple of White repertoire books even in a two-tempi-down version.  (Though in one of those, the author pointed to a game Babula-Illescas 2012 which started 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 c5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. e3 Nc6 7. Bd3 Be7 8. O-O O-O 9. Re1 Nf6 10. a3 cxd4 11. exd4, and mistakenly thought it was a difference of one tempo.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pantu
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 298
Joined: 12/30/06
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #10 - 03/14/17 at 20:38:25
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/14/17 at 02:20:31:
I suppose a possible argument in favor of ...e6 and ...Be7 (potentially transposing to some old main lines of the Semi-Tarrasch) is that you can aim for it against both the Panov and the Pseudo-Panov (2. c4).


The problem with the Semi-Tarrasch approach is that black has already taken on d4, so white is doing better in this version than the Semi-Tarrasch.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Bd3 Be7 8.O-O O-O 9.a3 is the mainline in the Semi-Tarrasch, when 9...cxd4 10.exd4 Bf6 is reasonable.

Instead 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 6.Nf3 Be7 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Bd3 O-O 9.O-O Nc6 10.Re1! (10.a3 transposes) is strong for white and scores well.

I too am struggling a little to decide what to play against the Panov. The Karpov approach with Bb4 would be great but I'm not too keen on the black position after 7.Bd3, but maybe I just have to play that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #9 - 03/14/17 at 17:20:24
Post Tools
The ...e6 & Bb4 system (Karpov) leads to a fight vs. the isolani or with an equal chance to vs. hanging pawns.

I like these positions with Black and I think there is room for positional play, based on which you could outplay your opponent (if you can defend against White's attacks, that is).
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4488
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #8 - 03/14/17 at 02:20:31
Post Tools
I suppose a possible argument in favor of ...e6 and ...Be7 (potentially transposing to some old main lines of the Semi-Tarrasch) is that you can aim for it against both the Panov and the Pseudo-Panov (2. c4).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mn
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 433
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #7 - 03/14/17 at 01:03:01
Post Tools
Personally I play the ...e6/...Bb4 system. Generally it leads to an IQP position, with chances for both sides, although it's kind of questionnable the extent to which Black can play for a win in the transposition to the Nimzo-Indian (7 Bd3 dxc4 8 Bxc4 0-0 9 0-0 b6 and so on); as far as I know best play leads to a perpetual in some key lines.

You could also go for ...e6/...Be7 for an IQP position, although this does seem to play more into White's hands (with ...Bb4, the attack on c3 forces a small concession right off the bat).

5...Nc6 6 Bg5 dxc4 and 6 Nf3 g6!?, as discussed above, is also a pretty decent repertoire. Also the immediate 5...g6!? tends to lead to fairly unbalanced play, although I'm not sure it's meant to be fully sound after 6 Qb3.

Those, essentially, are your options.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4488
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #6 - 03/13/17 at 23:51:47
Post Tools
whatteaux wrote on 03/13/17 at 23:42:33:
And also, FWIW, recommended by Lakdawala in The Caro-Kann Move by Move.


...and, while we're at it, the ...c6 book by Lakdawala and Kiewra.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
whatteaux
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 72
Location: Sydney, Oz
Joined: 03/22/10
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #5 - 03/13/17 at 23:42:33
Post Tools
fling wrote on 03/13/17 at 20:50:28:
As for ...e6 and ...Bb4, isn't that the recommendation of Opening for Black according to Karpov (another source for the OP)?


And also, FWIW, recommended by Lakdawala in The Caro-Kann Move by Move.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4488
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #4 - 03/13/17 at 21:12:39
Post Tools
fling wrote on 03/13/17 at 20:50:28:
As for ...e6 and ...Bb4, isn't that the recommendation of Opening for Black according to Karpov (another source for the OP)?


I would suspect so -- offhand I recall Karpov playing it against Kamsky in the '90s, and of course it can transpose to the Karpov variation of the Nimzo.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1538
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #3 - 03/13/17 at 20:50:28
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/13/17 at 19:04:44:
I would guess that some of those sources go for ...Nc6 and ...g6, which is different from the immediate ...g6.
One could be a renegade and play e.g. ...e6 and ...Bb4* (one of the traditional main lines) ...

*or ...Be7 -- maybe that is thought to give White better chances of an edge, but I don't really know


Indeed, they go for ...Nc6 and ...g6 later. I just checked, and yes, different from Bologan who gives ...Nf6 instead and then...g6 without ...Nc6.

As for ...e6 and ...Bb4, isn't that the recommendation of Opening for Black according to Karpov (another source for the OP)?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4488
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #2 - 03/13/17 at 19:04:44
Post Tools
I would guess that some of those sources go for ...Nc6 and ...g6, which is different from the immediate ...g6.
One could be a renegade and play e.g. ...e6 and ...Bb4* (one of the traditional main lines) ...

*or ...Be7 -- maybe that is thought to give White better chances of an edge, but I don't really know
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1538
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Options against the Panov
Reply #1 - 03/13/17 at 18:50:01
Post Tools
Reverse wrote on 03/13/17 at 18:11:23:
Any suggestions for options against he panov attack where I avoid simplified positions or endings out of the opening? Wasn't there a good system by bologan at one point?


I think Bologan recommends an early ...g6. There are at least three more sources I know of that go for ...g6 (I don't remember the exact move orders, maybe they are all as what Bologan gives) rather than the endgame line that Schandorff recommends. The sources are Houska in Opening Repertoire: Caro-Kann, Huschenbeth for Chess24 and also Emms in Dangerous Weapons: Caro-Kann.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Reverse
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 212
Location: USA
Joined: 11/11/09
Gender: Male
Options against the Panov
03/13/17 at 18:11:23
Post Tools
Any suggestions for options against he panov attack where I avoid simplified positions or endings out of the opening? Wasn't there a good system by bologan at one point?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo