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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) old indian gambit (Read 8019 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #19 - 06/07/17 at 16:52:32
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mn wrote on 06/07/17 at 16:19:21:
To a certain extent that's true. I remember a game a couple of years ago where I had Black which began 1 d4 d6 2 c4 e5. My opponent probably realized the best move is 3 Nf3, but, being a Samisch player, presumably was concerned I might play 3...Nd7!? and try to move order my way into a ...Nbd7 Classical KID. He wound up choosing 3 d5, but I got a very nice position out of the opening and went on to win. I think next time, rather than automatically going 2 c4, he'll play 2 e4 Nf6 3 f3  Smiley


That's (2.e4 Nf6 3.f3) what I recommend White play in my forthcoming book.
  
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mn
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #18 - 06/07/17 at 16:19:21
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To a certain extent that's true. I remember a game a couple of years ago where I had Black which began 1 d4 d6 2 c4 e5. My opponent probably realized the best move is 3 Nf3, but, being a Samisch player, presumably was concerned I might play 3...Nd7!? and try to move order my way into a ...Nbd7 Classical KID. He wound up choosing 3 d5, but I got a very nice position out of the opening and went on to win. I think next time, rather than automatically going 2 c4, he'll play 2 e4 Nf6 3 f3  Smiley
  
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JEH
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #17 - 06/07/17 at 02:42:31
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ReneDescartes wrote on 06/07/17 at 01:58:39:
you're saying that White has been move-ordered already, which seems pretty silly after 1.d4 d6 2.c4.


You can call me   Smiley silly  Smiley but I think White players of my level have been move ordered, out of their comfort zone, with 1.d4 d6 2. c4 e5!

They should have gone 2. e4  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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ReneDescartes
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #16 - 06/07/17 at 01:58:39
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It could occur from a Hartlaub Gambit, 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 (a subvariation of the Englund). But that has a near-refutation in 4.Bg5!, so if you do call it an Englund you're saying that White has been move-ordered already, which seems pretty silly after 1.d4 d6 2.c4.

The Black knight never gets kicked, so it's not that much like a Budapest or Fajarowicz with the early (forced) Black knight sortie.

But we can call it what we want. For example, the Superman Gambit--oops, that's another variation of the Englund  Wink
  
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #15 - 06/07/17 at 01:09:13
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It would be called the Englund gambit, with the sub-optimal move c2-c4 by White.
1 d4 e5 2de Nc6 3Nf3 d6 4ed Bxd6 5.c4
Similar positions arise in the Budapest Fajarowicz gambit.  None of these will show Black doing as well as in the early queenswap line, though.
  

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ReneDescartes
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #14 - 06/06/17 at 18:06:29
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OK, I'll give it a shot.

1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Nc6!? (charitable. No grandmaster has ever played this in my databases.) 4.exd6 cashing in immediately. 4...Bxd6. The position is rather open in the center, and White can already park the Queen's knight behind the c-pawn, so classical development of the knights seems best for both sides. 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Nc3. 

Now in the following line I'm not using the engines' allegedly best moves but supposing that Black wants to stir up trouble, unbalance the game, and keep pieces on. To see if Black can force that, I'll further suppose that White wants to keep the position rational and exchange down, though there's really no reason why he should. 6...Bg4. Black would be happy with opposite-side castling or with inducing White to double his pawns on f3. 7.e3 White avoids doubled pawns. 7...Qe7 8.Be2 O-O-O 9.Nd4 exchanging down. 9...Bxe2 otherwise White gets to exchange even more pieces. 10. Qxe2 Qd7 covering c6 (not 10...Nxd4--we wouldn't be here if Black didn't want to keep queens on). 11.Nxc6  Qxc6 12.f3 Rhe8! and White cannot arrange same-side castling, though with such an open center this is hardly a typical mutual pawn-storm position and future exchanges may be in store. White retains a decent advantage in my judgment.

Of course, the fact that Black fears exchanging queens doesn't mean that White should fear a sharp middlegame a center pawn up!
« Last Edit: 06/06/17 at 22:00:03 by ReneDescartes »  
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JEH
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #13 - 06/03/17 at 03:04:41
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/02/17 at 23:11:25:
We need some analysis instead of this constant harping


Indeed, I'll have a word with the ChessPub elves

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #12 - 06/02/17 at 23:11:25
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Nickajack wrote on 06/01/17 at 22:36:07:
Yes, yes, the Q-less middlegame is highly playable for Black.

I'm trying to think out of the box, at least playing the type of game I prefer (with Qs on board) against a likely rigid opponent who has committed to 2.c4 and 3.dxe5, expecting to go into the Queen Swap variation. Take him out of his comfort zone into mine, that type of thinking.


It has some value against thhe right opponent. Wasn't it Alekhine who said that his method for winning was to get the opponent to think for himself? We need some analysis instead of this constant harping on the endgame line.

1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Nc6!? 4.exd6 Bxd6 5.c5!? ( if he really wants a Q trade ... ) 5...Bxc5 6.Qxd8+ Nxd8 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.Bg5 Bd4 9.Nb5 Bxb2 10.Rb1 Be5 -/+ just a blindfold idea variation by me.
  
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #11 - 06/02/17 at 18:10:39
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Stigma wrote on 06/02/17 at 18:00:50:
Crisan, isn't that the guy who was busted around a decade ago for having bought his way to the GM title, and therefore stripped of it by FIDE?

If I recall correctly, FIDE forced him to play a round-robin tournament against GMs as a test, and he managed one measly draw and lost the rest.


Ah, good catch.
  
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #10 - 06/02/17 at 18:00:50
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kylemeister wrote on 06/02/17 at 17:44:32:
By the way, in the queenless line, I was kind of surprised to notice a couple of cases of A. Crisan (a 2600+ GM) playing e4 soon; I would have thought that to be dubious.  Looks like Macieja won a nice game against him.

Crisan, isn't that the guy who was busted around a decade ago for having bought his way to the GM title, and therefore stripped of it by FIDE?

If I recall correctly, FIDE forced him to play a round-robin tournament against GMs as a test, and he managed one measly draw and lost the rest.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #9 - 06/02/17 at 17:44:32
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By the way, in the queenless line, I was kind of surprised to notice a couple of cases of A. Crisan (a 2600+ GM) playing e4 soon; I would have thought that to be dubious.  Looks like Macieja won a nice game against him.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #8 - 06/02/17 at 15:36:40
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Nickajack wrote on 06/01/17 at 22:36:07:
I'm trying to think out of the box, at least playing the type of game I prefer (with Qs on board) against a likely rigid opponent who has committed to 2.c4 and 3.dxe5, expecting to go into the Queen Swap variation. Take him out of his comfort zone into mine, that type of thinking.


I doubt that there are any White players who would consider that queen swap variation their comfort zone.  You're finding a problem where none exists, in my opinion.  That position is at least equal for Black (I'd go out on a limb and even say that I personally think that Black is already slightly better) starting at move three and there's plenty of scope left to outplay your opponent; what more could you possibly want from a position? 

Notice that truly strong players don't worry about this sort of thing.  They just outplay weaker players from positions with some amount of imbalance, which the one in question certainly is.  I think that Black has much more room to outplay White after 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 3.de de 4.Qxd8+ than he does after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Bxc6 dc 5.Nxe5 Qd4 6.Nf3 Qxe4+ 7.Qe2, and yet plenty of strong players play 3...a6 without worry. 

But sure, gambit a pawn if you want, it doesn't look too terrible.
  
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mn
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #7 - 06/02/17 at 01:53:11
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I understand where you're coming from. But, while trying to get a psychological advantage, you still need to make good moves...
  
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #6 - 06/01/17 at 22:36:07
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Yes, yes, the Q-less middlegame is highly playable for Black.

I'm trying to think out of the box, at least playing the type of game I prefer (with Qs on board) against a likely rigid opponent who has committed to 2.c4 and 3.dxe5, expecting to go into the Queen Swap variation. Take him out of his comfort zone into mine, that type of thinking.
  

Dubious, therefore playable Undecided
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ErictheRed
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Re: old indian gambit
Reply #5 - 05/31/17 at 14:07:17
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Center pawns are important. The queenless middlegame is the main reason that Black plays this way, why try to avoid it?
  
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