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Normal Topic Is the Open Spanish a good way to play for a win? (Read 6218 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Open Spanish a good way to play for a win?
Reply #8 - 03/04/21 at 00:52:33
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One could respond to the subject question with: Is the exchange variation a good way for black to play for a win? My thought is that sometimes one reaches an endgame that contains some imbalance but is about equal. At my level of play, either side can still win.

There are plenty of interesting/exciting lines in the Open Ruy. However, White can try to avoid double-edged play at every turn, while hoping to keep an edge. Does that work for him?

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Nbd2 (other lines are more double-edge) 9...Nc5 10. c3 Be7 11. Bc2 d4 12. cd4 (more of the same from white) Nd4 13. Nd4 Qd4 14. Nf3 Qd1 15. Rd1. Black has some choices.

GM Mikhalevski continues with 15...0-0 in his book. The lines are complicated. He claims equality. I found that engines favor white for some moves, before coming around to equality.

GM Marin in his more recent E-book also follows 15...0-0. However he provides a second move 15...Rd8.

A possible continuation: 16. Rd8 Kd8 17. Nd4 Bd5 18. Nf5 g6 19. Ne7 Ke7. Here GM Marin comments:

"Once again we have a position with a knight and a bishop against two white bishops. Pawns are equal and the superior mobility of Black's majority maintains equality."

If white plays 20. Be3 black can reply with 20...Ne6 which is thematic in related positions. However Marin's 20...Na4, seems to equalize on the spot.

Marin considers 15...Rd8 to be simple and adequate and 15...0-0 to be more double-edged. Take your pick.

Other openings have issues too. For example Najdorf Sicilian players have to deal with the Moscow (3Bb5ch) variation and the Alapin.

In the same way that you don't always get the Dillworth variation of the Open Ruy, you don't always get your favorite line in the Najdorf. Sometimes one may have to be satisfied with some imbalance in the endgame.

  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Open Spanish a good way to play for a win?
Reply #7 - 12/05/19 at 05:52:44
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An observation: none of the games provided on this page are wins for black! Admittedly, none of our opponents play as well as the players of the white pieces in these games.
  
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Re: Is the Open Spanish a good way to play for a win?
Reply #6 - 12/03/19 at 17:51:21
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Thanks for the posts. These long lines are indeed double-edged. Thanks for the improvements for Black.

As black, I've played the Sicilian, French, and double-king pawn openings. So my experience and research are a bit scattered!

As black in the Open Ruy Lopez, I keyed in on 9c3 Bc5 a long time ago. So it takes me a while to warm up to lines that transpose to 9c3 Be7 variations.

Players who only play double-king pawn as black would do well to play the Open Ruy IMO. They can still vary their lines. 9c3 Be7 and 9Nbd7 Be7, as suggested is one way to play. 9c3 Bc5 and 9Nbd7 Nc5 is another way.

It's good to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I don't want to play a bad line, or one that offers absolutely no prospects. That said, hardly any of my games follow theory, or my preparation, for long. Either one of us does not know theory, or one of us forgets his preparation.

As a practical matter, I find that the Open Ruy Lopez provides chances for both sides in open, often chaotic, even bizzare play. And of course, many games never even get to 5...Nxe4.

For those who prefer more orderly play, there is always 5...Be7. The open variation proves that one need not be drunk to be disorderly.
  
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Syzygy
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Re: Is the Open Spanish a good way to play for a win?
Reply #5 - 10/10/19 at 22:39:50
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I know this thread is over two years old, but is there anything wrong with the classical line played in Gao Rui - Wei Yi and Adams - Giri? Here are two other recent games:





White won both games, but Black has equality in both lines, i.e. with 24...Bd8 in the first game and 24...g5 in the second game. To me it looks like Black can equalize with precise play in this variation. Honestly, it's more inspiring than the endgame in GM 13 or the drawish lines in the Marshall Attack. Thoughts?
  
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mn
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Re: Is the Open Spanish a good way to play for a win?
Reply #4 - 06/05/17 at 11:17:47
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Thanks for the reply.

I managed to find the second line via transposition on page 203 of Mikhalevski's book by transposition (with the move order 9 Re1!? Be7 10 c3 0-0 11 Nd4! - his punctuation) and he gives the new move 11...Bh4!? leading to equality.

The first line appears to be independent indeed, but I don't see any particular problems after 10...Bg4 11 h3 Bh5.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Is the Open Spanish a good way to play for a win?
Reply #3 - 06/01/17 at 01:14:06
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Well, I'm aware of a couple of other possibilities.  I recalled that 9. c3 Be7 10. Bc2 (e.g. meeting 10...Nc5 with 11. h3 as in a Karpov-Korchnoi game, and 10...0-0 with 11. Qe2) was claimed to lead to an edge for White in ECO.  Also there is the ancient 9. c3 Be7 10. Re1 with the idea of 10...0-0 11. Nd4 inviting a piece sac.
  
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mn
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Re: Is the Open Spanish a good way to play for a win?
Reply #2 - 05/31/17 at 23:55:04
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By the way, looking through GM13, I noticed that Mikhalevski suggests meeting 9 c3 with 9...Bc5. Is there any reason why 9...Be7 isn't just going to transpose to some other line in the repertoire (e.g. 10 Be3 -> 9 Be3 Be7 10 c3; 10 Nbd2 Nc5 -> 9 Nbd2 Nc5 10 c3 Be7)?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Is the Open Spanish a good way to play for a win?
Reply #1 - 05/31/17 at 16:31:48
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I dunno; there's also ...Bg4 stuff, though as far as I know it has long been considered a little better for White.

Those two games are of course examples of a really old classical line which keeps going on ...
  
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mn
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Is the Open Spanish a good way to play for a win?
05/31/17 at 08:12:15
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I'd always been under the impression that the Open Spanish was a good way for Black to imbalance the play and go for a win. However, now that I'm actually sitting down to look at some theory from the Black side, I'm not really sure how Black can purport to play for a win in the main line [1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 0-0 Nxe4 6 d4 b5 7 Bb3 d5 8 dxe5 Be6] 9 Nbd2.

Currently trendy (and suggested in GM13) is 9...Nc5 10 c3 Be7 11 Bc2 d4, but there White can (among other things) force a two results ending with 12 Nb3 d3 13 Nxc5 and so on.

Another interesting line that was featured in some high level games is the following:





Neither of these look especially inspiring though...

Thoughts?
  
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