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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Elshad system (Read 28825 times)
motörhead
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #28 - 09/02/19 at 08:15:08
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 08/31/19 at 23:26:30:
motörhead wrote on 08/31/19 at 20:59:22:
I came to think whether a full scale attack with b2-b4-b5 to disrupt the passive center structure of black from the left and only then marching forward with the central pawns may work.
This!

White can play like the Classical KID, b2-b4 Bayonet line. It is well known how to crack the black queenside there, so:
  1. White can play a large series of routine moves, and black misses out on the hoped-for "confusion factor".
  2. Black has far less real counterplay in the Elshad system than in the typical Mar del Plata variations, all the slow pawn moves and knight maneuvers do nothing on the kingside.
  3. Even if white mishandles it, it's easy to retain a slight edge. Controlling the center, castling kingside, and throwing forward the queenside pawns does not have much strategical risk.



Well, must be so, may be.
What puzzles me ist the fact that black refrains from doing anything in the center but simply passively controlling it with the c6 and d6 pawns - and inviting white to take measures to fix the center which would give some merits to black too (e.g. square e5 after d4-d5).

That's why I though of b2-b4-b5 to challenge that c6-pawn, to exchange it and then hit again now with d4-d5 to somehow get open lines and e.g. the square b5 for a white knight.

But black is not sentenced to passivity here. He has pawn play on the king's side. g5-g4 would hit Nf3 and as an echo too the pawn d4. The knight f8 may go to e6 or (may be better) g6. There are Qc7 an Bd7 and a possible 0-0-0; else, if black achieves in getting the king's side fixed or savely controlled, the king may walk away with first step to f8.

It was new to me to see a black one play non contact chess to this degree - and getting some chances with it anyway.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #27 - 08/31/19 at 23:26:30
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motörhead wrote on 08/31/19 at 20:59:22:
I came to think whether a full scale attack with b2-b4-b5 to disrupt the passive center structure of black from the left and only then marching forward with the central pawns may work.
This!

White can play like the Classical KID, b2-b4 Bayonet line. It is well known how to crack the black queenside there, so:
  1. White can play a large series of routine moves, and black misses out on the hoped-for "confusion factor".
  2. Black has far less real counterplay in the Elshad system than in the typical Mar del Plata variations, all the slow pawn moves and knight maneuvers do nothing on the kingside.
  3. Even if white mishandles it, it's easy to retain a slight edge. Controlling the center, castling kingside, and throwing forward the queenside pawns does not have much strategical risk.

The first point might be the most important. There was a decent blitz specialist who would play his own special Rat against everything: ...g6 ...Bg7 ...d6 ...Nh6 ...f6 ...Nf7 ...e5. I tried various attacks: Yugoslav Be3 Qd2 h4, Austrian f4 Bd3, Berserker g4 h4, etc. He was happy. Over time I realized that no matter what I did he was going to begin with the same exact sequence, so I started playing strictly on the left side (1.a4!?). He was unhappy, and started calling me "{firstname} Wing Attack {lastname}".
  
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motörhead
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #26 - 08/31/19 at 20:59:22
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What disturbs me with the book ist the fact that it consists out of so many varying up to obviously unreliable sources. Nemzev himself writes that mainly blitz- or else games were included, which are accompanied by some normal time control games. The ratings of the involved players vary ridicously in short range of time - Nemzev himself varying between some 2000 and over 2800 Embarrassed.

Especially bizarre is the special "warning" on using the system, inserted by the editor. Resembling to a superman cape with the warning " this cape doesn't enable to fly"... Shocked

I think that the book does not meet the critical points savely - if we take it from the analytical side. It is too overloaded with fine executions after white missed the right track. And than till the bitter end. Nice to see…

...but it has some real special twists in it. Black absolutely refrains from taking place in the active area of the Center (e5, d5) just Controlling it passively (with c6/d6). And I ask whether this may work. White may take c4, d4, e4 and somehow press forward with, well with what?

Browsing through the games gives the impression that d4-d5 hands over the square e5 to black. And e4-e5 or c4-c5 seem to be not so easily implemented. I came to think whether a full scale attack with b2-b4-b5 to disrupt the passive center structure of black from the left and only then marching forward with the central pawns may work.

On the other hand there are some interesting facts. Black plays this special knight-shift Nb8-d7-f8-e6/g6 (which in my eyes is more flexible concerning the square g6 then the interesting Nb8-a8-c7-e6 of Bücker's). This manouvre resembles the Spanish - but there white takes a share of the Center with e2-e4, while here black refrains from doing so - letting white show a proof of activity.  And there is a resemblance with an accelerated Hippo (i.e. with g6-g5 and Ne7-g6) and with the new trend of pushing g7-g5 somewhere in time, especially in the Sicilian…

In the end I am puzzled...
  

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tillchess
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #25 - 07/07/18 at 10:07:52
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In the book the author shows a game from Aeroflot Open 2014 (Game 66) . problem is that in 2014 there wasn't a Aeroflot Open  Embarrassed
  

1.e4h5 Smiley
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #24 - 06/15/18 at 10:06:20
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Not doubt a relatively strong player can do fairly well with it. I don't know of course if you played "Elshad" or someone else... Would you imagine Carlsen or Nakamura playing bullet chess with the Elshad?  Smiley

By the way, If I remember well, in the book the author wrote that he is writing another from White's point of view... let's see what he comes up with (and how much it takes!)
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #23 - 06/09/18 at 18:18:58
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Recently on Lichess I came across a 2200 rated player who seemed to play d6,c6,Nd7,h6,g5 in that order as black against pretty much anything, and appeared to be doing fairly well with it.  Now I know where it came from.  I have to say, I can't believe that it should work.
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #22 - 11/20/17 at 00:11:03
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grandpatzer wrote on 09/12/17 at 07:47:55:
From the book's excerpt I understand that Elshad is a first name... Anyone knows what Elshad's actual surname is?


According to what i heard on Igor Nemtsev's Youtube channel, his surname is Mamedov (stress on "e"); thus his full name is Elshad Mamedov. He is Russian speaking and Russian citizen, but not ethnic Russian. He is Talysh by origin (Talysh are an Iranian ethnic group) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talysh_people
  
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grandpatzer
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #21 - 09/12/17 at 14:16:53
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So how about that post? I am sure it's the same "Elshad" as the Elshad of the Black System... Should we take it all as a fake or with a grain of salt as some sort of a commercial escamotage?  Shocked
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #20 - 09/12/17 at 13:18:57
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Elshad might be an online alias. Or it might be simply a marketing gimmick. Look at that blog post Stefan linked in #8:
  • It is titled "The Persian Opening", but Elshad is supposedly Russian.
  • The player name is given as "Elshad", the opponents' names appear to be last names, but of course could also be aliases.
  • The annotations refer to "my debut", "my knights", etc.
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #19 - 09/12/17 at 07:47:55
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From the book's excerpt I understand that Elshad is a first name... Anyone knows what Elshad's actual surname is?
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #18 - 07/09/17 at 17:08:49
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 06/13/17 at 22:02:25:
ReneDescartes wrote on 06/12/17 at 15:59:41:
Here's a variation. After 1.d4 c6 2.c4 d5 3.Nc3 Nd7 4.e4 h6 5.f4 g5 6.fxg5 Bg7 7.Nf3 Nf8 8.Be2 hxg5! 9.Bxg5 Ne6 10.Be3 Qb6(?!), which Nemtsev describes as one of his main lines, he gives 10.Rb1 for White. This is exactly one of those pointless or unenergetic moves supplied for the opponent in cheap opening monographs that Nunn warns about .

What move does Nemtsev neglect to mention, a move obvious in this position (see diagram) where White's b-pawn is hit and where Black's stated intention is to contest the dark squares? (Hint: it's a standard developing move that further clears the back rank, effectively unpins the d4-pawn, and is thematic against a wide variety of Black king's fianchetto openings).

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

11.Qd2, of course, after which Black's best is 11...Nf6 (11...Bh6 12.O-O-O and White's position is absolutely classical, two tempi up in development with Black's kingside gone). 12.d5 Nc5 (forced); but then 13.Na5 hits both the queen and the knight pinned to it. After Black withdraws with 13...Qc7, White doubles Black's pawns and diverts a center pawn to the flank with 14.Nxc5 dxc5. White keeps his large advantage with normal moves such as 15. Bd3 in a position that is sharp primarily because Black's kingside is gone.

This is not some computer improvement--it's what exactly the stuffy correct opponent Nemtsev describes (i.e. me) would play as a reflex. What good is the time spent memorizing his opening analysis beyond this point, or for that matter after some White improvements earlier in the line?

This book isn't doing its readers any favors.

Thanks for showing this sample line. Your proposed 11.Qd2 is strong. Black should have better included 10...Nf6, e.g. 11.h3 Qb6. In that case the reply 12.Qd2? would run into 12...Ng4 13.Bg1 Bh6, and even the best line (according to the engine) 12.0-0 Qxb2 13.Rc1 Nh5 14.Rf2 Qa3 would pose practical problems. How relevant is that? Not so much, I fear, as 9. Nxg5! would have been more precise. Therefore Black should have considered 6...hxg5 (when White cannot take back with the knight) 7.Bxg5 Bg7 8.Nf3 Ngf6, intending Nf8-e6.

One of the points of the Elshad System is, apparently, to undermine the broad white center with a Ne6, a motif that resonates with me, as it resembles the Nd6 in the Vulture. Smiley After 1.d4 c6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3, there is a plausible alternative: 3...Na6!? (instead of Nd7) 4.e4 h6 5.f4 g5 6.fxg5 hxg5 7.Bxg5 Nc7, or perhaps 6...Bg7 7.Nf3 Bg4. Black's strategy would be very similar to Elshad's, with a knight heading in many lines to e6. It isn't obvious to me why the manoeuvre Nd7-f8 should be superior to Na6-c7, in my opinion the option Bc8-g4 can be useful.

Of course White could just choose another set-up without f2-f4. If there was a "moral obligation" to occupy the center with f2-f4, I'd rather play 1...c6, 2...Na6, 3...Nc7, 4...g6, 5...d5, in the spirit of the De Bruycker Defence. No need to gambit a pawn.

[The original De Bruycker Defence is c6/Na6, with the intention to react with d6 & e5 against a c4/d4/e4 center, and with d5 against a d4/e4/f4 center. In this concrete case the open c-file may give White a plus, but it would be worth debating over the board.]

Studying irregular openings can inspire new ideas. Even the Elshad System...  Wink


When I was trying out this "system" in speed games it was sometimes advantageous to abandon the ...Nf8-e6 maneuver and instead play ...Nf8-g6.  Having said that, ...Na6-c7 (c5) and then possibly to e6 seems like it should be a better option.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #17 - 06/15/17 at 20:57:45
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IsaVulpes wrote on 06/13/17 at 00:15:35:
kylemeister wrote on 06/10/17 at 05:50:16:
Trees are going to die for this?

This might be the best book review I've ever read. Thank you!


I give it Honorable Mention to Tony Miles' famous "Utter crap."
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #16 - 06/13/17 at 22:02:25
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ReneDescartes wrote on 06/12/17 at 15:59:41:
Here's a variation. After 1.d4 c6 2.c4 d5 3.Nc3 Nd7 4.e4 h6 5.f4 g5 6.fxg5 Bg7 7.Nf3 Nf8 8.Be2 hxg5! 9.Bxg5 Ne6 10.Be3 Qb6(?!), which Nemtsev describes as one of his main lines, he gives 10.Rb1 for White. This is exactly one of those pointless or unenergetic moves supplied for the opponent in cheap opening monographs that Nunn warns about .

What move does Nemtsev neglect to mention, a move obvious in this position (see diagram) where White's b-pawn is hit and where Black's stated intention is to contest the dark squares? (Hint: it's a standard developing move that further clears the back rank, effectively unpins the d4-pawn, and is thematic against a wide variety of Black king's fianchetto openings).

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

11.Qd2, of course, after which Black's best is 11...Nf6 (11...Bh6 12.O-O-O and White's position is absolutely classical, two tempi up in development with Black's kingside gone). 12.d5 Nc5 (forced); but then 13.Na5 hits both the queen and the knight pinned to it. After Black withdraws with 13...Qc7, White doubles Black's pawns and diverts a center pawn to the flank with 14.Nxc5 dxc5. White keeps his large advantage with normal moves such as 15. Bd3 in a position that is sharp primarily because Black's kingside is gone.

This is not some computer improvement--it's what exactly the stuffy correct opponent Nemtsev describes (i.e. me) would play as a reflex. What good is the time spent memorizing his opening analysis beyond this point, or for that matter after some White improvements earlier in the line?

This book isn't doing its readers any favors.

Thanks for showing this sample line. Your proposed 11.Qd2 is strong. Black should have better included 10...Nf6, e.g. 11.h3 Qb6. In that case the reply 12.Qd2? would run into 12...Ng4 13.Bg1 Bh6, and even the best line (according to the engine) 12.0-0 Qxb2 13.Rc1 Nh5 14.Rf2 Qa3 would pose practical problems. How relevant is that? Not so much, I fear, as 9. Nxg5! would have been more precise. Therefore Black should have considered 6...hxg5 (when White cannot take back with the knight) 7.Bxg5 Bg7 8.Nf3 Ngf6, intending Nf8-e6.

One of the points of the Elshad System is, apparently, to undermine the broad white center with a Ne6, a motif that resonates with me, as it resembles the Nd6 in the Vulture. Smiley After 1.d4 c6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3, there is a plausible alternative: 3...Na6!? (instead of Nd7) 4.e4 h6 5.f4 g5 6.fxg5 hxg5 7.Bxg5 Nc7, or perhaps 6...Bg7 7.Nf3 Bg4. Black's strategy would be very similar to Elshad's, with a knight heading in many lines to e6. It isn't obvious to me why the manoeuvre Nd7-f8 should be superior to Na6-c7, in my opinion the option Bc8-g4 can be useful.

Of course White could just choose another set-up without f2-f4. If there was a "moral obligation" to occupy the center with f2-f4, I'd rather play 1...c6, 2...Na6, 3...Nc7, 4...g6, 5...d5, in the spirit of the De Bruycker Defence. No need to gambit a pawn.

[The original De Bruycker Defence is c6/Na6, with the intention to react with d6 & e5 against a c4/d4/e4 center, and with d5 against a d4/e4/f4 center. In this concrete case the open c-file may give White a plus, but it would be worth debating over the board.]

Studying irregular openings can inspire new ideas. Even the Elshad System...  Wink
« Last Edit: 06/14/17 at 08:17:58 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #15 - 06/13/17 at 00:15:35
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kylemeister wrote on 06/10/17 at 05:50:16:
Trees are going to die for this?

This might be the best book review I've ever read. Thank you!
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #14 - 06/12/17 at 23:28:58
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Why is Mongoose Press agreeing to publish this? Surely it only hurts their reputation in the long run.
  
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