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Normal Topic What constitutes a cook of an endgame study? (Read 2022 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: What constitutes a cook of an endgame study?
Reply #6 - 06/28/17 at 21:30:05
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+1 to what Stigma said. The Selezniev position is not cooked. I think the OP does not know the difference between an idea and a move.

RE the Krabbe position. I forgot that I knew this one already, and was having a devil of a time trying to solve it. But after CarriedbyGg mentioned "illegal moves" it came back to my head instantly.
  
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CarriedbyGg
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Re: What constitutes a cook of an endgame study?
Reply #5 - 06/28/17 at 15:41:28
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Of course they do not, because they do not accept illegal moves Smiley
(exception: Gusti broke the engine at the World Championship)
  
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brabo
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Re: What constitutes a cook of an endgame study?
Reply #4 - 06/28/17 at 14:06:34
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This one was made in 1972 by Tim Krabbe.
Mate in 3. Cooked or not as the engines don't find a mate in 3.

I have seen this one more than 20 years ago but it still brings a smile.
  
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Stigma
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Re: What constitutes a cook of an endgame study?
Reply #3 - 06/28/17 at 12:54:50
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If underpromoting to a rook instead of a queen is considered a cook, wouldn't that make a lot of studies that involve promotion as a sacrifice at some point cooked?

I tend to agree that this sort of dual is "no big deal". I don't want to have to throw out lots of beautiful studies due to a small detail like this.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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George Jempty
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Re: What constitutes a cook of an endgame study?
Reply #2 - 06/28/17 at 12:02:26
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Maybe all that I write below is wrong; I've found a relevant section in the PDF you linked me too, right on the second or third pages, where it is written: "Promotion duals are only relevant in case
of thematic studies (underpromotion studies)"

OK I will check that!  But I've definitely concluded it is cooked; see my latest comment on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/6jv83w/isnt_this_famous_endgame_study_fr...

If you don't want to read all the comments in that thread, the study is the one listed in the "castling" section of the following wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endgame_study#Castling  I believe it's a fairly famous study too, at least I first encountered it as a pre-teen in one of my endgame books some forty-plus years ago.

I re-discovered the study about a week ago when somebody posted a link to the wikipedia article on reddit, and when I saw it, it occurred to me there could be a second solution, based on under-promoting to a rook, and I confirmed this using Komodo; see here: http://i.imgur.com/D8CPlbH.png

Looks like Wikipedia page may need to change a different example for a study involving castling (the article probably needs a definition of "cook" -- it is used once, but never defined.

Thanks again!
  
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brabo
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Re: What constitutes a cook of an endgame study?
Reply #1 - 06/28/17 at 11:42:13
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I advise you to read http://www.arves.org/arves/index.php/en/latestnews/a-minor-dual-is-not-a-big-dea...

There also existed a website with a long list of cooked studies but I am not able to find it back immediately. Anyway you should check the database of http://www.arves.org/arves/index.php/en/latestnews/harold-van-der-heijden-databa... or the smaller online database http://www.arves.org/arves/index.php/en/endgamestudies/chess-endgame-study-datab... to know if your cook is already discovered.
  
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George Jempty
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What constitutes a cook of an endgame study?
06/28/17 at 10:20:33
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What constitutes a cook of a formal endgame study?  Specifically, if there is an alternative, albeit inferior (more moves to mate) solution, isn't it still cooked?  This is my understanding but please dis-abuse me if I'm wrong  Wink

I asked this on reddit about a particular study that I think is cooked, but everybody seems distracted by the fact that it involves an under-promotion.  What it boils down to is a K+R vs K in the original solution, vs a K + 2R's v K+R (still a mate, albeit a few moves longer) in the alternative solution.

I'll be happy to share it here if I am indeed correct that any alternative solution constitutes a cook -- then my next question will be, has anybody else previously found this particular cook.  If not it will be my first ever contribution to endgame "theory" (or whatever it's called in the context of endgame studies), which will be a satisfying addition to my two or three contributions to opening theory, not bad I think for a mere class/expert (the latter at correspondence anyway) player.

Thanks for everybody's consideration!
  
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