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Normal Topic Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish? (Read 3106 times)
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Re: Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish?
Reply #9 - 08/22/17 at 21:29:30
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TN wrote on 08/22/17 at 20:07:35:
1.c4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4 (2...Nf6 3.e4) can work if you're happy to transpose back into 1.d4, but want to avoid the Nimzo and any kind of Benoni. Likewise, 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 and a Grunfeld will not appear on the board Smiley

You are right,also at the most of my games I played d4 playing a catalan (at the variation of my older post  ).It was annoying for me to have positions of the reversed benoni.
Anyway black must be just ok at this variation.
I thing white has to not give more territoty so easy  if he can play the catalan etc
  
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Re: Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish?
Reply #8 - 08/22/17 at 20:07:35
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1.c4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4 (2...Nf6 3.e4) can work if you're happy to transpose back into 1.d4, but want to avoid the Nimzo and any kind of Benoni. Likewise, 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 and a Grunfeld will not appear on the board Smiley
  

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Re: Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish?
Reply #7 - 08/22/17 at 11:56:29
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I play the Englich and can say that I do not like either to play the "reversed benoni" positions (1.c4 e6 2.g3 d5 3.Bg2 d4 like positions) even if white has some  good variations.
Maybe at 1Nf3 d5 you can choose another variation and not c4,KIA for example or 2.b3.
Also you may look deeper the analysis (theory) about 4.b4 at this variation.I like this move .
Edit:Also I thing it a good idea to vary your openings and choose for example KIA or something as a second option
  
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Re: Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish?
Reply #6 - 08/21/17 at 07:45:29
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You pretty much answered your own question - the Reti is easier, but as with any move order, there is a price (1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4). As noted, the KIA is easier again as there aren't many setups where it will be a bad choice, but CarriedbyGg is right that it will be a much more effective tool if you learn to play all the different structures (d3/e4, d4/c4, d4/c3, c4, b3/Bb2) rather than sticking to one setup against everything, which could be limiting for your game in the long term.

The London might be the easiest opening of all to play, but that's another section!
  

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Re: Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish?
Reply #5 - 07/22/17 at 18:26:21
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There are a lot of people that propose nf3 as the way to go for an amateur, most notably Magnus Carlsen. The idea is to start with Nf3, g3, Bg2, 0-0 and proceed from there to

a) get your king safe (it's harder than in other openings to mate this king) and
b) get a lot of different pawn structures in the centre, because you can go d4, c4, d3/e4.

But I think you also need to have this mindset. Try different things, study different pawn structures and plans, do not be afraid of losing or something else.
Playing this on autopilot will probably be suicidal for chess improvement, like any other opening.

But if you just want to not get mated in 20 moves, this is perhaps the best opening white can go for!
  
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Re: Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish?
Reply #4 - 07/22/17 at 16:27:53
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CanadianClub wrote on 07/21/17 at 22:36:57:
In the 1.Nf3 stuff, the great problem always has been when Black plays 1...d5, the critical line is 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4. I have not found yet a good line against it.

Salut,

I guess this is a problem if the Reti is your main repertoire and you're aiming to press for a theoretical edge. But I use the Reti as many do, as a break from heavy theory or when I think it will be especially uncomfortable and/or surprising for my opponent.

However you play them, the positions after 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4 are unbalanced, not prone to early simplification and still not that theoretical - what's not to like?  Smiley But then I've been interested in Benko and Benoni structures for a long time; when I see them often my first thought is I would be happy playing either side (unless one side is already clearly better, of course).

Btw. Your description of the English/Reti sounds like something I should play - I usually enjoy and do well With dynamic pawn structures. But when I tried 1.c4 some years ago, I just got draw upon draw out of it... probably gave it up too soon.
  

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Re: Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish?
Reply #3 - 07/21/17 at 22:36:57
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I play myself 1.Nf3 sometimes (to vary from my standard 1.d4), and it's a lot easier to play 1.d4 than 1.Nf3 because when you play straightforward (put the center under control, develop as fast as you can, try to exploit the lack of space Black has, or advance your pawns to create weaknesses....) you more or less can prepare yourself for a typical middlegame that arises with a great percentage of sureness (Carlsbad structures in the QGD, for example; fixed center e4-d5-c4 vs KID, and so on) but with 1.Nf3... depending what you opponent does, it's better to play d4 at some point, or maybe not, close the center or not, allow d4 by Black or not.... Not easy.

The English is a looooot more easy to comprehend and to play than the Reti. Not as easy to 1.d4 or 1.e4 (there are more theory-battles but the ideas are more well-known usually) but at least you have a clear plan in the majority of pawn structures you get.

Another point is that in the English/Reti complex, usually the structures you get are more dynamic than in the 1.d4 complex (usually). So you have to make choices in terms of structures.

By the way, I subscribe point by point all that Eric said to you before. Pick up a repertoire book and try to follow the lines the author gives to you. Study it but don't expect more than 5 o 6 moves ahead in the Reti. Your foes will deviate soon. As you will be growing as a chess player, you will be able to change some lines because of your style or because you simple don't like them.

In the 1.Nf3 stuff, the great problem always has been when Black plays 1...d5, the critical line is 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4. I have not found yet a good line against it.

Salut,
  
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Re: Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish?
Reply #2 - 07/17/17 at 19:51:01
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Eric's whole answer is good but the line "The key is to balance the amount of theory with what you can handle and what your opponents are going to throw at you" really summed it up. How many of your opponents really do out-theory you ? Stick to a repertoire ad you'll soon become the knowledgeable one. I happen to prefer the English but there is nothing wrong with 1.Nf3. I would recommend a repertoire book and then to change individual lines if you're not happy with them. That's a better approach I would say than trying to play a "system". Mostly the people that write the repertoire books are very strong compared to us amateurs. Why not use their opinions and then supplement them with experience ?
  
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Re: Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish?
Reply #1 - 07/17/17 at 17:42:27
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1.Nf3 is perhaps easier, but I don't like your approach to openings.  There's no such thing as a one-size-fits-all approach to openings that's in any way successful, and while you don't always have to play the most critical lines and memorize a ton of theory, you still have to play good moves that put pressure on your opponent in some way.  That means that there will be some opening theory to learn/memorize, in the same way that in order to play endings well you have to learn/memorize a lot of theoretical positions and maneuvers, likewise to play middlegames well you have to familiarize yourself with all of the typical plans in a given pawn structure, etc. 

The key is to balance the amount of theory with what you can handle and what your opponents are going to throw at you.  The amount of theory in an opening doesn't matter too much if your opponents are not likely to know it, either.  In other words, your approach to openings and your repertoire will grow and change naturally as practice dictates and you become a stronger player.  But wherever you're starting from now, I'd aim to play good moves and try to reach positions that you like, not look for a "system" opening.  Perhaps 1.Nf3 is a good way for you to get to the positions you want to reach, but start from the actual lines you want to play (what against the King's Indian?  What against the QGD setup?  What against the Slav? etc) and then figure which move order makes the most sense for you.

I really think that you're underestimating the amount you might need to know to play things like 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 dc 3.e3.  I don't even mean from a purely theoretical sense, just a chess culture and how to play the middlegame sense.

I wouldn't expect any opening repertoire to be a panacea ("and I'm done!") against theory.  Usually, strong players do well with openings like the Reti because they understand a wider variety of middlegame plans than weaker players do, and in my experience, when weaker players try to play these ultra-flexible openings, they end up doing themselves a disservice because they don't understand the positions they are getting themselves into very well.  Not that that should discourage you, just understand that there's no panacea to openings and try to learn as much about chess as you can, and devote your time to the areas that you are weakest in as you go along.  But don't avoid good moves in the opening for fear that your opponent will know a bunch of theory; most of your opponents will be the same strength as you, which means that they'll be just as clueless/knowledgeable as you, and if a much stronger player beats you because they know a lot more theory, you can take solace in the thought that since they're much stronger than you, you probably would have lost the game anyway!
  
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Is The Reti Just Easier Than The Engiish?
07/17/17 at 17:01:28
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As an amateur player looking for the easiest way out of the opening, I found that the Reti might actually be easier than the English. I like a one-size fits-all approach to the opening and don't like to memorize lines at all. So I would never play something like the Nimzo-Indian because White can avoid it by playing 3.Nf3 instead of 3.Nc3. I would never play the Czech-Benoni, despite how great it is to lock the position and not have to memorize anything, because White could simply refuse to play d5. So I always looked for simplicity in the opening and a way to avoid main lines as much as possible. This meant that when I played the English I would not transpose into things like the King's Indian, Catalan or Slav under any circumstances. This was harder than I thought.

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Bb4 and 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 are just too ambitious for me. On top of simply not capturing on c3 at all, Black has all kinds of ways to play these positions leading to pawn sacs and really complicated positions that I didn't want to go into. On top of this, Sicilian players would have their experience to help them here.

1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Nc3 isn't much better. After 3...c6 4.d4 (otherwise Black either owns the center or gambits a pawn leading to a really dreary game) ed 5.Qxd5 d5 6.Nf3 Be6 I don't feel comfortable in the IQP position or the gambit lines either because I wanted to avoid complications in the opening.

1.c4 Nf6 forced 2.Nc3 because 2.Nf3 would lock me out of the Botvinnik system and other replies to non-...e5 moves. And after 2...e6 I found that I was playing one thing and against 1.c4 e6! I was playing something completely different! This is obviously not acceptable to me. I just played into the French exchange with 4.c4 here which was something.

...c6 is no different. There are so-called anti-Slav systems but setups with ...g6 practically force White back into main lines which again was not what I wanted. I think I just went into the Panov-Botvinnik against ...c6 because there were at least some sidelines that were ok to play.

And then there's 1...c5, 1...f5, 1...b6 and wow it was just too much.

But 1.Nf3 is so much easier!!

1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 e6/c6 3.b3 and I'm done! Ok I should look at games but that's all I have to do!

1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 dc 3.Na3/3.e3 and oh my I'm done again!! Anyone can play this stuff!

1.Nf3 c5 and ok so there's no free lunch here... I just play d4 as early as possible, put pieces in the center and hope nothing goes wrong.

1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4 and there are some problems... I don't like the Benoni stuff too much at all which is odd seeing as White is practically inviting it. 3.b4 is also kind of crazy too so I just bite the bullet here and play 3.e3 Nc6 4.b4. I have no idea if this is good or not. All I know is that White's play is natural regardless of what happens and that's fine with me. 4...de 5.fe Nxb4 6.d4 e5 7.Nxe5 Qh4+ 8.Kd2 is admittedly crazy. But I think it's fine. You get similar positions in the king's gambit after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef 3.Nc3. I think it's ok as long as I move the king at the right time.

1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 and play like Carlsen. Easy!!  Wink If Black delays ...f5 then simply play for d3 and e4 anyway.

1.Nf3 b6 2.g3 is just going to transpose into 1.Nf3 e6.

1.Nf3 g6... king's indian... Here I just play the reversed closed sicilian. It's the only thing I'm really uncomfortable with because I don't understand sicilian positions well.

But that's it really. But I've seen so many people talk about how easy the English is and how you just play Rb1 and b4 against everything but it seems a lot more complicated than that.
  
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