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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Kiel Trap: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4 (Read 12561 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: Kiel Trap: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4
Reply #8 - 07/23/17 at 17:56:29
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MNb wrote on 07/23/17 at 17:23:48:
I don't see why Black would be better off after 7.b5 Nab8 8.Nf3 a6  than after 7.Nf3 g6 8.b5 Nab8 etc.

I just thought that 7.b5?! equalizes, as does 7.Nf3 g6 8.b5?!. There are harder tasks to solve if White doesn't give the opponent such a target.

About your proposed main line: I must admit that I didn't have the move 9.Bg5 on my radar. Is the extra move h7-h6 a weakness after 9...h6 10.Be3 c5? It is possible, yet the difference to 9.Be3 c5 isn't obvious.

Edit: Now I notice that in your line "b", White could have played 15.Bxh6! (instead of 15.d5) 15...exd4 16.Bxg7 Kxg7 17.Nxd4 with a significant advantage. So the provokation of h7-h6 can make sense. Adding the moves 0-0 and Be2 doesn't hurt much either. Altogether I like your line "b". Perhaps Black could even keep the extra pawn: 14...Kh7 (instead of 14...e5), e.g. 15.Rfb1 Na6 16.h4 Nc7 17.h5 g5. Or is this too risky?
« Last Edit: 07/23/17 at 21:42:59 by Stefan Buecker »  
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MNb
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Re: Kiel Trap: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4
Reply #7 - 07/23/17 at 17:23:48
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I don't see why Black would be better off after 7.b5 Nab8 8.Nf3 a6  than after 7.Nf3 g6 8.b5 Nab8 etc. (I think rather the opposite) but soit. In the main line White's play can be improved by 9.Bg5 (iso 9.Be2 and 9.c5) O-O (c5 10.Nd5!) 10.Be2 (10.Nd5 Re8) and now I propose three lines:

a) 10...c5 11.Nd5 still looks good for White.
b) 10...h6 11.Be3 c5 12.O-O cxb4 13.axb4 Nxb4 14.Qd2 e5 15.d5 e4 16.Nd4 Nc5 17.Rfb1 Nd3 18.Nxe4 Nxe4 19.Qxd3 Re8 is the adventurous continuation.
c) 10...c6 11.O-O Nc7 12.Qb3 Nf6 13.Rfd1 Ne6 14.Be3 is the silicon continuation.

White remains somewhat better at least. My preference for now (because without doubt this isn't the last word) is line b.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Kiel Trap: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4
Reply #6 - 07/23/17 at 15:42:13
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MNb wrote on 07/22/17 at 21:02:47:
I'm not so fond of 8...a6 because of 9.Bd3 axb5 10.cxb5 as White's space advantage looks pretty stabile.

To me this resulting pawn structure with three White pawn islands does not look very menacing. If I think about it as an OTB / non-corr player, my raw assessment would run along the lines: "If White really wants to achieve something, he has to push his kingside pawns - can he really be successful with the split pawns on the queenside?" In short, I'd be optimistic. The engine says +0.15. It's a game of chess.

However, what we perhaps agree about: after 6.b4 Nd7!?, the move 7.Nf3 can be regarded as a main line. The analysis below is just a first attempt. Let's see whether the folks on this forum can refute it.

I guess few otb-players would consider the weakening move 9.c5!?, but it is a dangerous continuation and I struggled for a while how to reply. 11...Bg4 looks counter-intuitive at first, but it seems to be the accurate move, to delay the attack Be3-h6 as long as possible. 


  
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MNb
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Re: Kiel Trap: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4
Reply #5 - 07/22/17 at 21:02:47
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I'm not so fond of 8...a6 because of 9.Bd3 axb5 10.cxb5 as White's space advantage looks pretty stabile. What's more, 7.Nf3 g6 8.b5 avoids this. So 7.b5 Nab8 8.Nf3 g6 9.Nc3 Bg7 and Black can still decide how to attack White's pawn front. White has an obvious lead in development (I remember being worried about it) and some space advantage, But now 10.Bd3 can be perfectly met with c5. Against some other setups  even ...e5 is still in the cards.
I can't wait until July 31th. I'm far from convinced yet, but think it would be splendid. As long as Black has counterplay I don't mind an edge for White in such lines.
  

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Re: Kiel Trap: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4
Reply #4 - 07/22/17 at 00:23:27
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Many thanks for sharing your games. The first game against De Jong appears particularly important. I am glad that you played 5.a3 N4a6! which I happen to prefer over N4c6 myself. Counterplay with c5 (or b5) makes sense here, at least to me. Surprisingly I find only 72 games with 5...N4a6 in the database, versus 254 with N4c6.

Just a few remarks on De Jong - MNb.
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4
Most critical. Yet eventually we'll have to return to 4.Nf3. Playing for "two results" with 4...Bf5 must be sound, but it wouldn't help to make the variation popular. That said, I don't believe in Khalifman's antidote (in volume 3 of his Anand series, p. 325) 5.Nh4!?. It's a loss of a tempo after 5...Bd7 followed by e6 and c5 - nothing to worry about.
4...Nb4 5.a3
Géza Maróczy was the first to recommend this reply in Paul Morphy (1909): "Auf [4...] Sb4 antwortet Weiß am besten durch 5.a3. Fehlerhaft wäre es, mit 5.Da4+ auf Figurengewinn zu spielen, [...]" Funny how the Hungarian's comment, written in 1908, preceded the stem game of the system.
5...N4a6 6.b4
One of the most successful continuations: 85% out of 10 games. Alternatives are 6.Nc3 (23 games, 91%), 6.Nf3 (27 games, 74%) and 6.Be3 (10 games, 80%).
6...Nd7!

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I like this move. It could well represent the "solution" against 6.b4.
7.b5?!
Black's idea of c7-c5 is illustrated by 7.Nf3 g6 8.Be2 Bg7, for example: (a) 9.Nc3 c5! 10.bxc5 Ndxc5 11.0-0 0-0 12.Be3 b6 13.Rc1 Ne6 and Black can be satisfied with his position.
(b) 9.Ra2 c6 10.Nc3 Nc7 11.0-0 a5 12.Qb3 0-0 13.Bf4 b5!, about =.
7..Nab8 8.Nf3 c5
The immediate 8...a6 was more precise, about =.
9.Bb2
White had several other options, e.g. 9.bxc6 Nxc6! 10.d5 Nce5 +=.
9...cxd4 10.Bxd4

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10...f6
Preparing a move that Stockfish plays at once: 10...e5!, about =.
For much of the remaining game, White had an edge.

MNb wrote on 07/21/17 at 02:11:52:
1. Every single book on the Scandinavian either dismissed it or neglected it.
2. The one exception is an obscure Swedish monograph from 1967 written by a certain Bo Jonsson.
3. Polugaevsky once said that no opening is better than one with a bad reputation enriched with new ideas.
4. About 10 years before a new idea occurred to me for the Scandinavian Marshall Gambit: if White prevents ...e5 then play ...c5.
5. I couldn't find a refutation of this idea when analyzing it with Fritz 3 (or was it 2 ?) so I assumed my opponents couldn't either.

Your first point is still true today. In 123 volumes of NIC yearbook, there are 53 articles on the Scandinavian Defence, but just five of them cover 2...Nf6, and none of those would help someone facing 4...Nb4.

I'll post more thoughts over the next days. Other duties interfere from 26-30th of July though.
« Last Edit: 07/22/17 at 08:11:25 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Kiel Trap: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4
Reply #3 - 07/21/17 at 23:22:28
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Hello.

So where does black go after 5.a3 exactly... 5...N4c6?

Have a nice day.
  
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MNb
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Re: Kiel Trap: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4
Reply #2 - 07/21/17 at 17:08:42
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14...Qg5 is worth looking at.
  

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Re: Kiel Trap: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4
Reply #1 - 07/21/17 at 02:11:52
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Unfortunately Thursday evening is not the best evening for me to look at analyses. But I promised to post four of my games. Unfortunately I noticed that my memory once again has deceived me; it were only three games, me scoring 2½. Still I will post that fourth game as well, just because fond memories. But let me first provide some context.
In the second half of the 1990's it became clear that silicon power would have a major impact on opening theory. Players learning to use it to their advantage had a huge though temporary advantage. I wasn't exactly the first one, but also far from the last ones. What's more, the big shots focused on mainstream stuff. I realized it could be used for any opening. One of my choices was the Kieler Gambit, for several reasons.

1. Every single book on the Scandinavian either dismissed it or neglected it.
2. The one exception is an obscure Swedish monograph from 1967 written by a certain Bo Jonsson.
3. Polugaevsky once said that no opening is better than one with a bad reputation enriched with new ideas.
4. About 10 years before a new idea occurred to me for the Scandinavian Marshall Gambit: if White prevents ...e5 then play ...c5.
5. I couldn't find a refutation of this idea when analyzing it with Fritz 3 (or was it 2 ?) so I assumed my opponents couldn't either.

De Jong - MNb, corr NBC II-671



½ - ½
This was the last game of the group and the draw secured my promotion.

One of the three wins was the off-topical

Muller - MNb, corr NBC II-671



0-1. I still like the final position, with the king completely safe in front of White's passed pawn. Finally the two wins:

Wilterdink - MNb, corr NBC  I-521


0-1 Ironically ...Nb4 is quite a threat.

Van Egdom - MNb, corr NBC I-523


I gave it up after losing games with 4.Nf3 Bf5 5.Be2 and especially 5.Bd3. Moreover I always have been suspecting that De Jong spoiled a serious opening advantage, so I felt that I had tried my luck long enough. But perhaps it deserves a resurrection - that would be splendid.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Stefan Buecker
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Kiel Trap: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4
07/20/17 at 23:23:25
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A thread to discuss the so-called "Kiel Trap" (in German: Kieler Falle). Let's see whether 5.a3 is a clear refutation, or not.

To add a historical perspective, here is the stem game of the system. The "Handbuch" (8th ed., p. 825) refers to Schweizerische Schachzeitung 1910, a pretty rare source. There is a more detailed version in Wiener Schachzeitung 1912, p. 289, with comments borrowed from W. Therkatz (Krefelder Zeitung, 21 January 1911). Therkatz inform us that White is "Pastor A. Rhode, Schildberg", and Black "Leutnant zur See [= midshipman] von Zitzewitz, Kiel". Thus, two Germans participating in a Swiss correspondence tournament.

  
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