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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6) (Read 13934 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #19 - 10/06/23 at 01:00:16
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In the preceding line White can play 21Re3!?:

(1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Bd3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ne2 cxd4 8. cxd4 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. O-O Bd6 11. Nf3 O-O 12. Bf4 Bxf4 13. Nxf4 Ne4 14. Qc1 Ng5 15. Nxg5 Qxg5 16. Bxh7+ Kxh7 17. Nxe6 Qf5 18. Nxf8+ Qxf8 19. Re1 Bd7 20. Qg5 Qd6)

21. Re3!? Rf8 22. Rd1 Rf5 23. Qh4ch Qh6 24. Qxh6 Kxh6, or 23...Kg8 24. Rh3 Qf6 25.Qf6 Rf6 26. Rb3 Na5 27. Ra3 Nc6 28. h4 Kf7 29. f3 Rh6 30. g3 Ke7 31. Kf2 Kd6. In either case, Black has just enough counterplay.
« Last Edit: 10/06/23 at 13:23:50 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #18 - 10/05/23 at 19:50:28
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WSS wrote on 08/12/17 at 12:11:34:
The 3…Nf6 line has been a perennial favorite receiving recommendations from John Watson in PTF4 and Emanuel Berg in GM16.  I was curious why it has slipped to third in popularity and is scoring the most poorly (aside from the Guimard)?


Most authors seem to be going for 3...c5 4exd Qxd5 nowdays. It's probably best, but not so familiar to me. So I took another look at 3...Nf6, which I've analyzed and played on and off (when playing the French).

The line that bothers me the most, and had me discouraged, can be found in the old game Kharchenko,B (2494)-Volkov,S (2623) Taganrog RUS 2014.

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Bd3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ne2 cxd4 8. cxd4 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. O-O Bd6 11. Nf3 O-O. Black develops naturally but allows the trade of black-squared bishops. 12. Bf4 Bxf4 13. Nxf4 Ne4. 
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White has several good moves but 14Qc1 has been played most often and scores best.
14. Qc1! Ng5!? 15. Ng5 Qg5 16. Bh7! Kh7 17. Ne6 Qf5 18. Nf8 Qf8. White has a rook and two pawns for two minor pieces. Also, Black's king is more vulnerable. White is somewhat better.

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19. Re1!? Bd7 20. Qg5 Qd6 21. Rad1 Rf8 22. Rd3 Rf5!? (staying active) 23. Qh4 Kg8. 
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White played 24.a3 and Black took the initiative with 24...Rf4 in the game Kharchenko,B (2494)-Volkov,S (2623) 0-1 RUS 2014.
Instead, play might have continued 24. Rh3 Qb4 with equal chances.
« Last Edit: 10/05/23 at 21:59:09 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #17 - 02/02/18 at 07:55:07
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As a Tarrasch player from the White side, I'd say the line I like to see the least is 3...c5 4 exd5 Qxd5  - it's hard to achieve much as White if Black's careful, and you might even find yourself worse in some ending way down the road. In fact, the last time I faced an opponent I knew would play this way, I dodged it with 4 c3. 

In the standard main line with 3...Nf6 and 11...Qc7, 12 h3 looked like a nice little move last I checked, which admittedly was around a year ago - has this been neutralized yet? Also, I think 11...0-0 is very reliable if a draw is an okay result.



  
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #16 - 02/02/18 at 06:38:45
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Coming on board late, but I'm just getting back into chess after a couple of years, so I'm just seeing this. 

WSS says that Berg's and Watson's recommendations in the Nf6 variation look good. Do you know how that compares to Simon Williams' lines in his Killer French DVD and/or Attacking Chess book? I don't have the Berg and Watson books to compare and see if they all recommend the same stuff.

  

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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #15 - 08/26/17 at 21:16:23
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TN wrote on 08/22/17 at 19:52:33:
The reason 3...c5 is more trendy is because it's a better line according to engine analysis. In the position after 11...Qc7 you note, I haven't found a way for White to achieve even a symbolic advantage (though Black must remember a few concrete moves, of course). Conversely, in the 3...Nf6 main line, White has a few different approaches (12.g3, 12.Bg5, even 12.Nc3) and White's play seems more straightforward in all of them, though my knowledge there is not deep enough to say with any confidence if White can claim a true advantage. In CHOPIN the overall assessment is 'equal, but a touch more comfortable for White'.

First of all, thanks for your response TN!  I was busy with some other projects this week so I didn't get a chance to respond earlier.

I understand your point of view since the 3...c5 tabyia is relatively safe for Black given that he has no structural weaknesses and his main challenges are his lagging development, somewhat unsafe king and slightly less space.  However, I would have a slightly different view that White's play in this position is easier and reasonably comfortable and Black has not quite equalized as yet.  White will use his lead in development and mobility to probe at Black's position hoping to create a weakness to exploit.  Certainly it is the kind of position that a stronger player can hope to outplay a weaker opponent.

Admittedly the 3...Nf6 line has greater risk for Black but he is also pressing harder and I would say there is a higher risk/reward potential in the position.  I'm not trying to say that it is a "better" position for Black - I am merely asserting that it is more dynamic and, on balance, not a worse alternative for Black than the more popular 3...c5 line.
  
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #14 - 08/22/17 at 19:52:33
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The reason 3...c5 is more trendy is because it's a better line according to engine analysis. In the position after 11...Qc7 you note, I haven't found a way for White to achieve even a symbolic advantage (though Black must remember a few concrete moves, of course). Conversely, in the 3...Nf6 main line, White has a few different approaches (12.g3, 12.Bg5, even 12.Nc3) and White's play seems more straightforward in all of them, though my knowledge there is not deep enough to say with any confidence if White can claim a true advantage. In CHOPIN the overall assessment is 'equal, but a touch more comfortable for White'.
  

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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #13 - 08/15/17 at 13:55:11
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Lauri Torni wrote on 08/15/17 at 09:08:06:
3.-Nf6 is positionally rather fragile. I think this is the reason for the popularity of 3.-c5 at high level (- c5 is also my choice). 


Yes, the variations lead to quite different types of positions.  Let's look at two tabyias which represent a main line of each variation:





In the 3...c5 line, White is ahead in development, his king is safer and he can quickly develop some threats against Black's uncastled king.  Although Black lags in development, one pair of knights has been exchanged, his pawn structure is sound and he has an extra central pawn so his long term prospects are good if he can mobilize while neutralizing White's attacking chances.

In contrast, in the 3...Nf6 line, both players are similarly mobilized although White has succeeded in castling and his king is safer.  Obviously Black's pawn structure is weaker with 3 pawn islands to 2 for White and his backward e-pawn (although he does possess 2 center pawns to 1 for White.) . Generally speaking, Black must play more dynamically in order to take advantage of his attacking chances in the middlegame since passive play would ultimately favor White's better pawn structure.  Indeed, the thematic exchange sacrifice ...Rxf3 is often an important resource for Black utilizing the half-open f-file.

Both positions have their merits and disadvantages for Black.  At the risk of over generalizing, the 3...c5 tabiya should appeal to solid, positional players who don't mind defending and are looking to outplay their opponent over the long term.  I would also assume it appeals at the highest levels where solid technique is the norm and a draw is an acceptable outcome as Black.  On the flip side, the 3...Nf6 line requires more dynamic, fighting  play by Black (it sort of reminds me of playing the Black side of the King's Indian Defense where I feel the need to generate pressure against White without allowing him to drift into an advantageous endgame.)

Just a few comments to stimulate discussion!  Wink

By the way, in my sample of 2400+ players, Black scored the following in each tabiya:

3...c5 tabiya Black scored 5W - 17 D - 10L
3...Nf6 tabiya Black scored 2W - 3D - 3L
« Last Edit: 08/15/17 at 23:55:04 by WSS »  
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #12 - 08/15/17 at 13:12:30
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I think both experiences can occur even when facing the same group of players. In my experience it depends a lot on the event.

When I play in 1 game a day FIDE rated tournaments my opponents (most likely rated 1900-2300) will usually prepare for me fairly well, thus giving the impression of them being well versed in theory. On the other hand playing in local leagues, where opponents aren't known in advance, has a completely different feel. In such cases I've had many strong players start to think deeply well within theory. For example a 2100 level player thought for 15-20 minutes after 4.Nf3 against his Nimzo Indian.

Some of the difference may be related to the type of players who play in tournaments, compared to those who play evening leagues. Still, I suspect most of it is down to how much time there is for decent game preparation. Personally I also display far less theoretical knowledge in local league games Smiley
  

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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #11 - 08/15/17 at 12:52:56
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About my comment about opponents and knows less and less theory, some friends and I plays regularay in weekend tournaments in Sweden during the past years and we has noticed this trend in all our games. Maybee different in other countrys, I dont know. The point is when I was younger I met mainlines more often and was in theoretical positions for more moves regardless of type of tournament or opponent. 

However this thread was about French defence. I recently started to play French and in over the board games and I have met exchange variation in more games then I expected including vs heigher rated playes.


  
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #10 - 08/15/17 at 10:20:36
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bragesjo wrote on 08/13/17 at 19:36:01:
I can add one small thing about not knowing theory. While there are more theortical information available than ever before players  bellow elite leve know less and less concrete theory. I have met a several FM:s who has been out of book before move 7 in mainlines regardless of side.
If have only met 3 GMs but in each case I knew theory some move longer.

I've seen several comments in this general vein from you lately. I don't doubt your experience, but it's surprising because it doesn't match my experience at all: My opponents seem to know more and more theory.

I can't play something semi-offbeat and rely on surprise value anymore: Quite often my opponents are concretely prepared for my openings, and so I have to be too.

Maybe my experience is an anomaly because I play in Norway, where I often get to face ambitious, young players who took up the game during Magnus' rise to the top. And when I do travel abroad to play, I deliberately choose opens where I'm likely to face stronger opponents a lot of the time.

But even disregarding my own case, I still find your statement that people know "less and less concrete theory" hard to believe. The general chess level has improved gradually since the start of tournament chess, and this also includes opening knowledge. And nowadays people have access to all this opening information as you say. They can even pick up quite a bit of theory just by following live broadcasts of top tournaments, which have become a lot more frequent and professionally done in the last decade.

P.S.: When you know more theory than the FMs and GMs you face, the obvious conclusion is that you're a somewhat lopsided player at present, a lot stronger in the opening than in other parts of the game. I have no idea what your specific weaknesses are of course, but the time should be ripe for forgetting about openings for a while and focusing on the rest of your game.
  

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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #9 - 08/15/17 at 09:57:14
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One reason Black doesn't score so well with 3...Nf6 against the Tarrasch is many Black players wheel it out just because it often leads to fighting positions or because it's the typical "French" move that leads to central pawn chains, not because they have studied it in detail, which would be a much better reason to play it of course!

This point shouldn't apply above 2400, but maybe it does even there to some extent.

In contrast, if Black plays 3...c5, especially if he aims for the ...Qxd5 lines, it's a good bet he knows quite a bit about it. It's obvious that those lines require independent study since they are more unique and less "French-typical" thematically (though there are som similarities with the Rubinstein French and the Caro-Kann).
  

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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #8 - 08/15/17 at 09:08:06
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3.-Nf6 is positionally rather fragile. I think this is the reason for the popularity of 3.-c5 at high level (- c5 is also my choice).
  

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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #7 - 08/14/17 at 20:22:04
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/14/17 at 17:08:40:
So your overall takeaway is that Black is still OK if he follows Berg's repertoire, is that your main point? 


Actually both Berg and Watson's (PTF4) repertoires seem to be holding up in the 3...Nf6 line.  My initial interest was trying to understand why the 3...Nf6 line was underperforming / less popular based on database statistics.  I used Berg and Watson as arbitrary standards for how Black should (or could) play (understanding that both authors make choices regarding variations.)  In my opinion the 3...Nf6 line remains a good fighting alternative to the much more popular 3...c5 variation.
  
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #6 - 08/14/17 at 17:08:40
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So your overall takeaway is that Black is still OK if he follows Berg's repertoire, is that your main point?
  
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #5 - 08/14/17 at 00:46:27
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bragesjo wrote on 08/13/17 at 19:36:01:


There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. Statistics does not always show the correct evaluation of a line.
I can give an example from an other opening with equal material that several books for black recommened where all engines thinks dead equal while in practical  play white scores 61% in databases. It could be that in practical over the board games whites position is easier to handle when one is out of book.


I share your skepticism regarding the simple statistics we find in databases.  That was a motivation for me analyzing the individual games more deeply to draw my own conclusions.  In this case, the database statistics would say that Black should avoid the 3...Nf6 Tarrasch based on the overwhelming positive score for White.   However, when you look at the actual games you find a more nuanced story where Black has many opportunities (often relatively early in the game) to improve his play.
  
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