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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5 (Read 4522 times)
Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #22 - yesterday at 06:59:32
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In my own analyses I had Leela analysing on both sides and basically each time Leela found defences for Black against its own attacks as White.

Many times the lines were not intuitive and were obviously unhuman moves, but to squeeze the most out of White's attack, it takes a very skillful White player to maximise White's position. But even then it seems to me that Black (with help of computer analysis of course) can defend and counterattack when the opportunity comes.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #21 - 10/08/19 at 07:56:27
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Leela is quite good at defending the positions too I think - it definitely finds some of the thematic exchange/pawn sacrifices.

With many of the 7.. o-o lines you're right - white has to know quite a bit, and with 9 Qh5 over a huge number of lines too.

9 Bg5 is a bit of a worry in that black seems to only have about one viable way to play, and the position is somewhat under control.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #20 - 10/07/19 at 18:48:27
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I would like to see how games would be if Leela were given Black in 7...0-0. I often see Leela as White here. Maybe it can defend properly against its own attacks.

Also in a OTB tournament game with standard time control, I doubt most White players can replicate the precise moves required to try to attack. Both sides need precaution in 7...0-0. If White makes small mistakes, Black could take the initiative quickly.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #19 - 10/07/19 at 09:02:28
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Its a hard opening to write a book about!

Watson did one a bit back, main line vs 9 Qh5 shortly more or less refuted & various of his ideas vs 9 Bg5 with it. Berg 'lost' his main lines vs 9 Bg5 and a huge dent in his one vs the 9 Qh5 stuff. Awfully good books from excellent authors.

The truth is probably that it is a bit of a nasty struggle vs very accurate play.

LC0 seems quite balanced overall to me really about these positions. It loves space advantages and slow, controlled attacks so naturally very keen on some of the positions white can get.

Its one reason I'd be a little bit wary of those correspondence draws - I've a feeling that Leela and friends will handle these positions as white much better than SF etc. Might prove wrong if tested with an tournament of course!
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #18 - 10/07/19 at 06:57:28
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It would be very helpful if someone published a book on 7...0-0 for Black. Leela is very much for White in this line, and perhaps Black players are not prepared for the brutal attacks. I admit that at times it requires a precise defence.

But somehow I cannot imagine that 8...Cbc6, which throughout the 1970s up to the late 1990s was the main line of the whole French Defence, being refuted.
  
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Syzygy
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #17 - 10/07/19 at 04:11:56
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/07/19 at 00:16:53:
Syzygy wrote on 10/06/19 at 22:41:03:
Honestly, a lot of these correspondence games are freely available online through Lichess's Opening Explorer tool. Here is a link to the recent correspondence game with 9. Bg5:

https://www.iccf.com/game?id=934223


How and where do you know to search these games. I usually get my games only from Big Database 2019, so I usually miss correspondence games.


You can play around analyzing with Lichess's analysis tools, or search directly in the ICCF archives.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/07/19 at 00:16:53:
Syzygy wrote on 10/06/19 at 22:41:03:
Now that I think about it, in the main lines with 13...Qf7, the plan with Qe2 and g4 might be the most dangerous continuation. Of course, all of this discussion of 9. Qh5 is beside the point if 9. Bg5 becomes a refutation of the whole line. At least, Miedema and Aagard seem to think so.


I think that 9. Ag5 is critical, but I do not agree with their assessment. What do French experts tend to think about 7...0-0 now (including both 8...Cbc6 and 8...f5 and others). From what I see, no one really discussed this. They usually talk about the Poisoned Pawn or the old lines that are now popular, like 4...b6 and the Armenian.


I am not sure where you are going to find expert opinions, but correspondence games are usually quite close to the "truth" of an opening variation. In the past couple of years White has had an obscenely high plus score with 9. Bg5.

I am sure Aagard is aware of these recent developments, and agree with his assessment that Black needs to play 8...f5. Even then, the "main line" of 8...Nbc6 has been the main line for a reason: I wouldn't expect Black to be able to equalize with 8...f5 either.

Edit: Looking at the 2018 ICCF archives, it seems that that three correspondence games have reached the endgame with 15. Ba3 Qf5.

In one correspondence game, White played non-critically. Black was able to play ...a5, build a fortress, and hold the draw.

In two correspondence games, White played a brutally direct plan with f4, g4, and h4 and won the game. In one of these games, both players were rated above 2300.

  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #16 - 10/07/19 at 00:16:53
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Syzygy wrote on 10/06/19 at 22:41:03:
Honestly, a lot of these correspondence games are freely available online through Lichess's Opening Explorer tool. Here is a link to the recent correspondence game with 9. Bg5:

https://www.iccf.com/game?id=934223


How and where do you know to search these games. I usually get my games only from Big Database 2019, so I usually miss correspondence games.

Syzygy wrote on 10/06/19 at 22:41:03:
Now that I think about it, in the main lines with 13...Qf7, the plan with Qe2 and g4 might be the most dangerous continuation. Of course, all of this discussion of 9. Qh5 is beside the point if 9. Bg5 becomes a refutation of the whole line. At least, Miedema and Aagard seem to think so.


I think that 9. Ag5 is critical, but I do not agree with their assessment. What do French experts tend to think about 7...0-0 now (including both 8...Cbc6 and 8...f5 and others). From what I see, no one really discussed this. They usually talk about the Poisoned Pawn or the old lines that are now popular, like 4...b6 and the Armenian.
  
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Syzygy
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #15 - 10/06/19 at 22:41:03
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Honestly, a lot of these correspondence games are freely available online through Lichess's Opening Explorer tool. Here is a link to the recent correspondence game with 9. Bg5:

https://www.iccf.com/game?id=934223

Now that I think about it, in the main lines with 13...Qf7, the plan with Qe2 and g4 might be the most dangerous continuation. Of course, all of this discussion of 9. Qh5 is beside the point if 9. Bg5 becomes a refutation of the whole line. At least, Miedema and Aagard seem to think so.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #14 - 10/06/19 at 21:45:34
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Syzygy wrote on 10/06/19 at 20:08:45:
In the line with 9. Qh5, recent correspondence games seem to show that Black is holding after:

13...Qf7 14. Ng5 Qe8 15. h4 Bd7 16. Nh3 Ne7 17. Nf4 h6 18. a4 a5

13...Bd7 14. h4 Rf5 15. h5 gxh5 16. Rxh5 Rxh5 17. Qxh5 Qc8

but after 13...b5 14. h4 Rf5 15. Qh3! h6 16. g4!, Black is in a lot of trouble.

Anyways, the first two lines do not seem to be very fun for Black to play either.

After 9. Bg5, in light of 11...Qa4 12. f4 c4 13. Bxg6 fxg6 14. f5!!, the main attempt at a defense seems to be 11...c4.

After 12. Bxg6 fxg6 13. a4, 13...Rf7 was tried in a recent correspondence game in which Black lost badly.

13...Qc7 is more resilient, when after 14. Bc1 Qf7, Black can hope to trade queens and set up a fortress in the endgame with ...a5. However, I have come to believe that 15. Ng3, preventing the trade of queens, is more dangerous. 15...Ne7 allows 16. a5, and after a continuation like:

15...Bd7 16. h4 b6 17. f3, the threat of h5 is always looming. For instance, 17...h6 18. Ba3 and no matter where Black puts the rook, there are dangerous consequences.





How did you get access to these correspondence games, was it through ChessBase corr 2019 or ICCF.

It would be interesting to know what French experts think of these lines, especially Berg himself and others, such as Paco Vallejo or Psakhis. There is not very much literature on this line after Berg's book.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #13 - 10/06/19 at 21:01:56
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Well, if you look and it in depth and still like it then play it, but put a lot of work in first Smiley It very definitely isn't responsible for white not playing Qh5.
  
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #12 - 10/06/19 at 20:08:45
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In the line with 9. Qh5, recent correspondence games seem to show that Black is holding after:

13...Qf7 14. Ng5 Qe8 15. h4 Bd7 16. Nh3 Ne7 17. Nf4 h6 18. a4 a5

13...Bd7 14. h4 Rf5 15. h5 gxh5 16. Rxh5 Rxh5 17. Qxh5 Qc8

but after 13...b5 14. h4 Rf5 15. Qh3! h6 16. g4!, Black is in a lot of trouble.

Anyways, the first two lines do not seem to be very fun for Black to play either.

After 9. Bg5, in light of 11...Qa4 12. f4 c4 13. Bxg6 fxg6 14. f5!!, the main attempt at a defense seems to be 11...c4.

After 12. Bxg6 fxg6 13. a4, 13...Rf7 was tried in a recent correspondence game in which Black lost badly.

13...Qc7 is more resilient, when after 14. Bc1 Qf7, Black can hope to trade queens and set up a fortress in the endgame with ...a5. However, I have come to believe that 15. Ng3, preventing the trade of queens, is more dangerous. 15...Ne7 allows 16. a5, and after a continuation like:

15...Bd7 16. h4 b6 17. f3, the threat of h5 is always looming. For instance, 17...h6 18. Ba3 and no matter where Black puts the rook, there are dangerous consequences.



  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #11 - 10/06/19 at 18:49:15
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Last time I saw this line in the past few years, Black drew with 19...Rf7 in correspondence games. As of right now I do not know what the state of theory here is.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #10 - 10/06/19 at 09:59:49
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I just found Watson's update (Sept 2015) - his summary says it nicely really: "In general, it seems that Black has more problems in this line than he can possibly be happy with, but we'll see how theory and practice develop."

The position after 19.. Kf7 gives white a mass of dangerous options and he's mostly playing for two results at the same time.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #9 - 10/05/19 at 23:21:24
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Last year there were some correspondence games where all were draws in 13...b5 by Berg and White played Negi's 15. Cg5 there. I think that Watson had already also did an update on this line. I recall it being very long analysis, but basically Black was fine if I remember.

Which lines do you think Black struggles in in Watson's updates.

Regarding 9. Ag5, I had analysed this for months and came up with some interesting replies. Although whether Black players in the 7...0-0 line have found them as well, who knows..
  
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MartinC
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Re: Winawer: 7...0-0 8. Ad3 Cbc6 with 13. Dg4 b5
Reply #8 - 10/05/19 at 21:45:52
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That's slightly odd reasoning Smiley 9 Bg5 is getting a lot of attention as its really very dangerous to start with and more especially because the main recommendations previously felt solid enough - in Berg's QChess book etc - have got more or less buried.

9 Bg5 also permits many fewer viable responses than 9 Qh5, which must be a strong attraction in practical terms.

None of that is that relevant to the evaluation of this specific line after 9 Qh5. It truly isn't fun to play with black.
  
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