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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bronstein-Larsen (Read 25763 times)
Keano
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #54 - 09/21/17 at 20:47:21
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I am going back to the drawing board and my original 6...h5 idea. I found an idea I am vaguely happy about:

6.c3 h5 7.Bc4 Nd7 8.Qb3 e6 (I was unhappy about this line before but maybe it is not the end of the world)
9.Nf3 Nb6 10.Be2 Rg8 11.O-O e5!?

I am just offering a pawn to get active play, maybe objectively its not 100% sound but I think I could play this happily over the board, I have initiative for a pawn.

  
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Keano
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #53 - 09/21/17 at 19:09:33
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First line:
15.Qb3 Bd6 16.dxc6 Qxc6 17.c4 Qb6!? but proaly you avoid the endame with something like 18.Qe3 and a5 is coming?

I looked at 15.Qb3 c5 16.a5, didnt like that either for Black

Maybe my ...Kb8 is just too slow. It looked good on the board but the engines have made a mockery of me.

At this moment I am thinking to go back and look at HgMan's original line...
« Last Edit: 09/21/17 at 20:22:40 by Keano »  
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mn
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #52 - 09/21/17 at 03:30:08
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A couple ideas:

15 Qb3!? Bd6 16 dxc6 Qxc6 17 c4!, covering g3, Rook to the b-file and/or c5/a5-a6 likely to follow.

15 dxc6 Qxc6 16 Bf3 Qc7 17 Qb3; 17...Bd6 18 Ne4, while after 17...Bd3, the computer points out the exchange sacrifice 18 a5!, when taking the Rook will ultimately lead to a disaster on b7.
  
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Keano
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #51 - 09/20/17 at 23:52:21
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mn wrote on 09/20/17 at 21:30:21:
As a practical matter, it looks like White has the much easier game, if for no other reason than his attack lands first; .eg. 14 b5 e5 15 Qb3 with a5-a6 to follow. This all looks very dangerous for Black.


14.b5 e6(!) Flexibility is the watchword.

I claim an excellent game for Black. ....Bd6Xg3 is coming and I dont see any clear attack for White.
  
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mn
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #50 - 09/20/17 at 21:30:21
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As a practical matter, it looks like White has the much easier game, if for no other reason than his attack lands first; .eg. 14 b5 e5 15 Qb3 with a5-a6 to follow. This all looks very dangerous for Black.
  
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Keano
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #49 - 09/20/17 at 20:45:14
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In this line after 13.0-0 I have a new suggestion to throw into the ring

13...Kb8! (Prophylaxis against the Bc4 move, ...e5 will come next)

Black seems to get reasonable play to me, but no doubt the engines will come up with the next refutation Smiley
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #48 - 09/20/17 at 16:51:55
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HgMan wrote on 09/18/17 at 02:08:43:
One potential line (which starts to look a little hairy):

6.c3 Bf5 7.Ne2 Nd7 8.Ng3 Bg6 9.h4 h5 10.Be2 Qa5 11.a4 O‑O‑O 12.b4 Qc7 13.O‑O e5 14.b5 Nc5 15.Bc4 f5 16.Bg5 Be7 17.Bxe7 Qxe7 18.bxc6 f4

...and then I have no idea what's going on.

Very interesting discussion. In the line above, White can also try 18.Qf3 f4 19.dxc5 fxg3 20.Qxg3 Qxc5 21.Be2. This could be a long ending, with Black's king a little more exposed than White's. For example 21...Rhg8 22.Rfd1 Rde8 23.Qh3+ Kb8 24.Qf3. The computer shows something like +1.00, eventually winning a pawn further down the road. 
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #47 - 09/19/17 at 18:49:06
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Just punning. "Silicone" is not the same as "silicon".
  
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HgMan
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #46 - 09/19/17 at 12:15:16
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/19/17 at 04:32:46:
HgMan wrote on 09/19/17 at 01:07:51:
... if our silicone friends can see it, it's safe to assume it's what to expect in correspondence chess.
Silicone friends are not usually known for giving good chess advice.


I'll stand by the statement: for better or worse, it's safe to assume that many cc players will follow the lead of their masters. Can you recommend an improvement over 15.Bc4, or are you just trolling?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #45 - 09/19/17 at 04:32:46
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HgMan wrote on 09/19/17 at 01:07:51:
... if our silicone friends can see it, it's safe to assume it's what to expect in correspondence chess.
Silicone friends are not usually known for giving good chess advice.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #44 - 09/19/17 at 02:58:05
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Any takers? 6.c3 Bf5 7.Ne2 e5!? 8.Ng3 Be6

There's a smattering of attempts with this, but nothing concrete in the databases—certainly not by top players (though a De Carbonnel tried it twice in the 1965 correspondence chess world championship final). Much as 11.0-0 above looks wrong (though, it must be said, Sanakoev's 12.Bf4 looks pretty persuasive), 7...e5 looks to be asking for trouble. And yet...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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HgMan
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #43 - 09/19/17 at 02:43:53
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Indeed: Engel lost two games with the same 11.0-0

[Event "WC10/final (7884)"]
[Site "ICCF Post"]
[Date "1978.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Sanakoev, Grigory K. (RUS)"]
[Black "Engel, Klaus Eberhard (GER"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B16"]
[EventDate "1978.??.??"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nf6 5. Nxf6+ gxf6 6. c3 Bf5 7. Ne2 Nd7 8.
Ng3 Bg6 9. h4 h5 10. Be2 Qa5 11. O-O e6 12. Bf4 O-O-O 13. b4 Qa3 14. Qb3 Qxb3
15. axb3 e5 16. Be3 a6 17. f4 exf4 18. Bxf4 Nb6 19. Bd2 Re8 20. Rf3 Bd6 21. Kf2
Nd5 22. Re1 Bxg3+ 23. Rxg3 f5 24. Rf3 Nf6 25. Bf4 Re4 26. Rc1 Rhe8 27. Bd3 R4e7
28. c4 Ne4+ 29. Kg1 Kd7 30. b5 axb5 31. cxb5 Nf6 32. bxc6+ bxc6 33. Bg5 Re1+
34. Rxe1 Rxe1+ 35. Kf2 Re6 36. Bxf6 Rxf6 37. Rf4 Kd6 38. Ke3 Bh7 39. Bc4 Ke7
40. Rf2 Rd6 41. Rd2 Rg6 42. d5 f4+ 43. Kf2 cxd5 44. Bxd5 Rg4 45. Bf3 Rxh4 46.
Kg1 Bf5 47. Rd4 Ke6 48. b4 Ke5 49. Rd5+ Ke6 50. b5 Bg4 51. b6 Bxf3 52. gxf3
1-0
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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HgMan
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #42 - 09/19/17 at 02:42:35
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Hardly topical, but I came across this game in the line we have been discussing from the 10th ICCF World Championship (1978).

6.c3 Bf5 7.Ne2 Nd7 8.Ng3 Bg6 9.h4 h5 10.Be2 Qa5 11.O-O e6 12.b4 Qc7 13.Re1 Bd6

Surely 11.0-0 looks wrong, but Black missed a few chances to exact full punishment.

[Event "WC10/final (7884)"]
[Site "ICCF Post"]
[Date "1978.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Svenningsson, Jorgen Vincent (SWE"]
[Black "Engel, Klaus Eberhard (GER"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B16"]
[EventDate "1978.??.??"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nf6 5. Nxf6+ gxf6 6. c3 Bf5 7. Ne2 Nd7 8.
Ng3 Bg6 9. h4 h5 10. Be2 Qa5 11. O-O e6 12. b4 Qc7 13. Re1 Bd6 14. Bf3 Bxg3 15.
fxg3 Qxg3 16. Re3 Qd6 17. b5 cxb5 18. a4 b4 19. cxb4 O-O-O 20. a5 Kb8 21. a6
Ne5 22. axb7 Nxf3+ 23. Rxf3 Qxd4+ 24. Qxd4 Rxd4 25. Rfa3 Rxb4 26. Rxa7 Rh7 27.
Be3 Rxb7 28. Ra8+ Kc7 29. Rc1+ Kd6 30. Rd1+ Ke5 31. Bd4+ Kf5 32. Rf1+ Kg4 33.
Bxf6 Rb4 34. Ra5 Bf5 35. Kh2 Rh6 36. Be7 Rc4 37. Ra3 f6 38. Rg3+ Kxh4 39. Rxf5
1-0
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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HgMan
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #41 - 09/19/17 at 01:07:51
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Stockfish jumped straight to 15.Bc4 and stayed there. That surprised me: you're right that it doesn't look intuitive at all. But if our silicone friends can see it, it's safe to assume it's what to expect in correspondence chess.

The line above looks pretty good for Black. The next step is to determine whether or not Black can improve and acquire greater counterplay. There seem to be a few places in that line where Black could try and get creative...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Keano
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #40 - 09/18/17 at 13:47:17
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HgMan wrote on 09/18/17 at 02:08:43:
One potential line (which starts to look a little hairy):

6.c3 Bf5 7.Ne2 Nd7 8.Ng3 Bg6 9.h4 h5 10.Be2 Qa5 11.a4 O‑O‑O 12.b4 Qc7 13.O‑O e5 14.b5 Nc5 15.Bc4 f5 16.Bg5 Be7 17.Bxe7 Qxe7 18.bxc6 f4

...and then I have no idea what's going on.


Does look hairy - looks like Black is getting his counterplay but on further inspection White may be better.

15.Bc4 is not a very intuitive move to find OTB but in correspondence you might have a an issue Smiley
  
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