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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bronstein-Larsen (Read 26427 times)
HgMan
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #69 - 09/23/17 at 20:23:57
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On further examination, here's what frightens me the most:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6+ gxf6 6.Nf3 which shouldn't cause much grief 6...Bf5 7.Bd3!? Bg6 8.0-0 Qc7 9.c4 Nd7 10.d5! There's nothing outwardly problematic here beyond the fact that Black is about to get wiped off the board in very short order. 0-0-0 11.Be3 c5 12.Be2 Kb8 13.Rc1 f5 (13...c5 is better) 14.c5 Nxc5 15.Bxc5 e4 16.Bd4 exf3 17.Bxh8 fxe2 18.Qxe2 Bd6 19.Bf6 Bxh2+ 20.Kh1 Bf4 21.Rc4! 1-0 Matulovic-Larsen(!!) (Hastings 1972). I'm coming to terms with the fact that Larsen didn't actually play B16 particularly well. His efforts are far less theoretically significant or consistent than Bronstein's. Or Turov's, for that matter.

In short, I think there are some obvious improvements that can be made to Black's play in the game above, but rather than the 6.c3 lines with a fianchetto or with 7.Ne2 as previously discussed, I find this very natural 6.Nf3 and the rapid c2-c4 try more potentially dangerous. The absence of a bishop on c4 makes Black's thematic Nd7-b6-d5 seem slow and awkward and irrelevant. The natural try is 6...Bg4, but I think it's interesting that Turov has shifted to ...Bf5 away from ...Bg4. Nevertheless:

6...Bg4 7.Be2 Qc7 8.Be3 Nd7 9.c4 e6 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Qa4 Kb8 looks okay for Black.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #68 - 09/23/17 at 17:33:42
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Keano wrote on 09/23/17 at 17:04:31:
What I like about this whole opening is it seems like there is plenty of room for creativity and expression.


You would think that an opening named after David Bronstein and Bent Larsen would attract a greater following. What is interesting is that Bronstein seems to have been the more adept of the two. He won regularly. Larsen's results are much more mixed.
  

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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #67 - 09/23/17 at 17:04:31
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I just looked at Turov's games. 6...Nd7 also looks completely viable and interesting. What I like about this whole opening is it seems like there is plenty of room for creativity and expression.

I also found it interesting that instead of 6.c3 when White plays 6.Nf3 instead of the universally recommended 6...Bg4 Turov simply replies 6...Bf5 and seems to get on just fine.
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #66 - 09/23/17 at 05:31:24
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Stigma wrote on 09/23/17 at 01:16:26:
HgMan wrote on 09/22/17 at 22:53:19:
I spent a good portion of the afternoon with Maxim Turov's games, and especially his tries with 6.c3 Nd7!? He makes the Bronstein-Larsen look very very easy. More so than 6...h5--though it frequently transposes, I think his games offer a valuable model.


Interesting. I have attended lectures/training sessions with GM Turov twice, and both times he showed a Caro-Kann game ... but alas with Capablanca's 4...Bf5 main line, not 4...Nf6.

Does he play both lines? And the Bronstein-Larsen more as a surprise weapon or against weaker opponents, perhaps?


It appears as though he plays both. I suspect that the Bronstein-Larsen is his first love--there are games going back to the U14 WCh. He seems to be playing it less frequently of late, but his record with it still seems very strong.
  

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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #65 - 09/23/17 at 01:16:26
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HgMan wrote on 09/22/17 at 22:53:19:
I spent a good portion of the afternoon with Maxim Turov's games, and especially his tries with 6.c3 Nd7!? He makes the Bronstein-Larsen look very very easy. More so than 6...h5--though it frequently transposes, I think his games offer a valuable model.


Interesting. I have attended lectures/training sessions with GM Turov twice, and both times he showed a Caro-Kann game ... but alas with Capablanca's 4...Bf5 main line, not 4...Nf6.

Does he play both lines? And the Bronstein-Larsen more as a surprise weapon or against weaker opponents, perhaps?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #64 - 09/22/17 at 23:30:03
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Keano wrote on 09/22/17 at 21:32:52:
[quote author=103F153936580 link=1505013226/60#60 date=1506106865]Even though I think the 6...h5 line also must be in good shape. After all in the last few years it has been played successfully by Short, Seirawan, etc.


From what I can gather, the real test for 6...h5 remains Tiemann-Mannermaa (cor. 2002), but deviating with 14.Nxd4! as recommended in DW: The Caro-Kann. But I've not yet spent much time with 6...h5. Do have a look at 6...Nd7, though.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #63 - 09/22/17 at 22:53:19
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I spent a good portion of the afternoon with Maxim Turov's games, and especially his tries with 6.c3 Nd7!? He makes the Bronstein-Larsen look very very easy. More so than 6...h5--though it frequently transposes, I think his games offer a valuable model.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Keano
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #62 - 09/22/17 at 21:32:52
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HgMan wrote on 09/22/17 at 19:01:05:
I still find this a bit terrifying. After 12.dxe5 fxe5 13.Nxe5 Qf6, Black's king looks pretty exposed and their are too many pieces on the back rank. I'm amazed that the following variations don't leave Black getting absolutely steamrolled within the next 10 moves, but you're right about the active play. Black sort of springs into action after, for example, 14.f4 Bc5+ 15.Kh1 Be6 and things don't look so bad.

I also thought stuffing in a 9...h4 or something to that effect. Which does nothing for my concerns about Black's earlier development, but seems thematic nevertheless.


9...h4 might be an idea also but I prefer to just kick on with 9...Nb6 10.Be2 Rg8 11.0-0 e5!?

I see what you mean about being terrifying but on closer inspection all Blacks pieces are coming out with tempo and (most importantly) his king will be safe. I like the practical aspect of that line.

edit: hmm it is not so clear now to me, I have discovered some tries for White.

So.... at this moment I like best the line suggested by @ Stefan Buecker

Even though I think the 6...h5 line also must be in good shape. After all in the last few years it has been played successfully by Short, Seirawan, etc.
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #61 - 09/22/17 at 19:31:33
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/20/17 at 16:51:55:
HgMan wrote on 09/18/17 at 02:08:43:
One potential line (which starts to look a little hairy):

6.c3 Bf5 7.Ne2 Nd7 8.Ng3 Bg6 9.h4 h5 10.Be2 Qa5 11.a4 O‑O‑O 12.b4 Qc7 13.O‑O e5 14.b5 Nc5 15.Bc4 f5 16.Bg5 Be7 17.Bxe7 Qxe7 18.bxc6 f4

...and then I have no idea what's going on.

Very interesting discussion. In the line above, White can also try 18.Qf3 f4 19.dxc5 fxg3 20.Qxg3 Qxc5 21.Be2. This could be a long ending, with Black's king a little more exposed than White's. For example 21...Rhg8 22.Rfd1 Rde8 23.Qh3+ Kb8 24.Qf3. The computer shows something like +1.00, eventually winning a pawn further down the road. 


I appreciate this thought. But I wonder if the other rook to g8 at move 21 makes a tangible difference? 21...Rdg8 22.Qf3 f5 (I think my favourite part about playing the Bronstein-Larsen is being able to lash out with ...f5 twice in one game!). But maybe Black still has a tricky endgame after 23.Rfd1 f4 24.bxc6
  

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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #60 - 09/22/17 at 19:01:05
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Keano wrote on 09/21/17 at 20:47:21:
I am going back to the drawing board and my original 6...h5 idea. I found an idea I am vaguely happy about:

6.c3 h5 7.Bc4 Nd7 8.Qb3 e6 (I was unhappy about this line before but maybe it is not the end of the world)
9.Nf3 Nb6 10.Be2 Rg8 11.O-O e5!?

I am just offering a pawn to get active play, maybe objectively its not 100% sound but I think I could play this happily over the board, I have initiative for a pawn.



I still find this a bit terrifying. After 12.dxe5 fxe5 13.Nxe5 Qf6, Black's king looks pretty exposed and their are too many pieces on the back rank. I'm amazed that the following variations don't leave Black getting absolutely steamrolled within the next 10 moves, but you're right about the active play. Black sort of springs into action after, for example, 14.f4 Bc5+ 15.Kh1 Be6 and things don't look so bad.

I also thought stuffing in a 9...h4 or something to that effect. Which does nothing for my concerns about Black's earlier development, but seems thematic nevertheless.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #59 - 09/22/17 at 18:52:44
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HgMan wrote on 09/19/17 at 02:58:05:
Any takers? 6.c3 Bf5 7.Ne2 e5!? 8.Ng3 Be6

There's a smattering of attempts with this, but nothing concrete in the databases—certainly not by top players (though a De Carbonnel tried it twice in the 1965 correspondence chess world championship final). Much as 11.0-0 above looks wrong (though, it must be said, Sanakoev's 12.Bf4 looks pretty persuasive), 7...e5 looks to be asking for trouble. And yet...


7...e5!? Jeremy Silman doesn't like this idea for Black, which is understandable. Optically it looks all wrong. But with a bit of patience, Black might be able to uncover some counterplay. 8.Ng3 Be6 The point, I guess. Black tries to open the position while providing some cover for the king along the opening e-file. 9.Be3 Qc7 10.Bd3 Capitalizing on the departure of Black's bishop from this diagonal. As Silman notes, "the e4 and f5 squares are now in White's hands. Black's game is already very bad." 10...Nd7 11.O-O O-O-O 12.Qh5 ( 12.Qf3 h5 13.Bf5 was eventually drawn in Altshuler-De Carbonnel (ICCF WC05/final 1965). 12...Kb8 may not be as bad as Silman claims. 13.Rfd1 Bd6 14.Nf5 exd4 15.Bxd4 Be5 16.Bc2 Rdg8 This is playable for Black. In fact it looks rather good.
  

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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #58 - 09/22/17 at 16:50:49
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HgMan wrote on 09/22/17 at 12:10:29:
Not a critical line under discussion, but I stumbled across this lovely miniature from David Bronstein last night, which I think demonstrates the potential for activity in Black's position. I thought the 10...f5 & 11...Qh4 was a particularly pretty idea worth knowing about.

Aseev-Bronstein, Moscow 1982
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6+ gxf6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Ne2 Nd7 8.Ng3 Bg6 9.O-O e6 10.h4 f5 11.h5 Qh4 12.Qf3 Bd6 13.hxg6 hxg6 14.Re1 Bxg3 0-1


What a beautiful little miniature. All the more remarkable because his opponent was no idiot and went on to become a very strong GM.
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #57 - 09/22/17 at 12:10:29
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Not a critical line under discussion, but I stumbled across this lovely miniature from David Bronstein last night, which I think demonstrates the potential for activity in Black's position. I thought the 10...f5 & 11...Qh4 was a particularly pretty idea worth knowing about.

Aseev-Bronstein, Moscow 1982
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6+ gxf6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Ne2 Nd7 8.Ng3 Bg6 9.O-O e6 10.h4 f5 11.h5 Qh4 12.Qf3 Bd6 13.hxg6 hxg6 14.Re1 Bxg3 0-1
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #56 - 09/21/17 at 22:48:19
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/21/17 at 22:33:10:
Or perhaps your idea is too fast?  Smiley

Personally I like e7-e6 too, but now I think 11...0-0-0? is just premature. It seems better to delay castling: 11...e6! 12.b4 Qc7 13.a5!? (13.b5?! is hardly possible here; 13.Nxh5 a5!; 13.Bd3 Ne5!) 13...Bd6 14.Nxh5 a6!. Freezing the structure is more urgent than castling. For example: 15.g3 0-0-0 16.Nf4 Be4 17.Bf3 f5, and there is nothing wrong with Black's position.

There are circa a dozen games with 11...e6 in the database, but none of them problematic for Black.

Wow. I was so happy with my new idea in the 6...h5 line, now you come up with this great idea in the other line, I like it very deep idea. Black remains flexible with the king, it makes sense. By the way we are struggling here to refute a White idea that has hardly ever been played, and the possibilities being thrown up in this thread show the ...gxf6 line is not by any means dead in the woods.
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #55 - 09/21/17 at 22:33:10
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Keano wrote on 09/21/17 at 19:09:33:
Maybe my ...Kb8 is just too slow.

Or perhaps your idea is too fast?  Smiley

Personally I like e7-e6 too, but now I think 11...0-0-0? is just premature. It seems better to delay castling: 11...e6! 12.b4 Qc7 13.a5!? (13.b5?! is hardly possible here; 13.Nxh5 a5!; 13.Bd3 Ne5!) 13...Bd6 14.Nxh5 a6!. Freezing the structure is more urgent than castling. For example: 15.g3 0-0-0 16.Nf4 Be4 17.Bf3 f5, and there is nothing wrong with Black's position.

There are circa a dozen games with 11...e6 in the database, but none of them problematic for Black.
  
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