Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bronstein-Larsen (Read 25725 times)
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4504
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #84 - 09/28/17 at 03:35:57
Post Tools
Jansa didn't say anything about 11...Bd6.  Regarding his game with Hracek, he thought his 15. cd ("?!") was enough for an advantage but that 15. Bf4 was stronger.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2323
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #83 - 09/28/17 at 01:49:20
Post Tools
I'll have to refer to Jansa's work to engage with it more thoroughly, but the line he mentions is an important one. It's the same one that Negi recommends. Maybe the combination of the two is what has persuaded players to revert back to ...Bf5.

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6+ gxf6 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Be2 Qc7 7...e6 frequently transposes, but I'm not sure about the queen move as being necessary at this point. I assume it's claiming the diagonal before White plays Bf4, but this is hardly a worry. 8.0-0 Nd7 9.Nh4 Bxe2 10.Qxe2 e6 11.c4 0-0-0 12.g3 Rg8 13.d5 Negi recommends 13.Qh5 Nb6 14.b3 h6 (what about 14...Bb4, which isn't mentioned?) 15.Be3 Qe5 14.Qf3 exd5 15.cxd5 Qxd5 16.Qxd5 cxd5 17.Be3 was Jansa-Hracek (Prague 1984)

White looks pretty good—and this is a problem line for Black. One option is to go back to the drawing board and trying 6...Bf5 (more on which another time). But does Jansa offer any discussion of 11...Bd6 ? Negi doesn't. One simple line:

11...Bd6 12.g3 Nf8 13.Qh5 Ng6 14.Nxg6 fxg6 15.Qh3 f5 16.Re1 Qf7 This looks more appealing to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4504
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #82 - 09/27/17 at 23:46:51
Post Tools
By the way, Vlastimil Jansa's Dynamics of Chess Strategy from 2003 had a few pages about the Bronstein-Larsen (which he called "a strategically dubious system") and related Scandinavian lines.  The B-L part was mostly about a plan for White after 6. Nf3 Bg4 which he thought to be "of lasting importance," starting with 7. Be2 Qc7 8. 0-0 Nd7 9. Nh4 as he had played e.g. against Zbyněk Hráček in 1994 (the main game discussed).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2323
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #81 - 09/27/17 at 22:25:33
Post Tools
In short, 6.Nf3 frightens me a good deal more than 6.c3. It seems as though Black has resources against 6.c3. The best include 6...Bf5 (the longstanding mainline) and 6...Nd7, which is surprisingly effective.

Against 6.Nf3, things are less clear. Part of this, I think, stems from an uncertainty in how to proceed. Negi offers good lines here for White, though his recommendations against both 6...Bf5 and 6...Bg4 leave something to be desired. The latter seems to be the principled move: White offers up the knight to be pinned. The former, however, is popular amongst the Bronstein-Larsen's most experienced proponents (though maybe this is hoping to transpose to other lines).
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2323
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #80 - 09/26/17 at 21:14:29
Post Tools
I've played through hundreds of games in this line over the past week or so and put together the beginnings of an opening book with comments and annotations. When you refine the database stats to plausible ventures for Black, Blakc looks very good. Which is to say: correct play through move 15 puts Black in very good stead. I need to do some preparation on the Caro Advanced, but this will certainly find a place in my armoury.

More on specific recommendations shortly...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mn
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 436
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #79 - 09/26/17 at 16:29:46
Post Tools
Yeah the practical element is quite important - while I was arguing for White's chances earlier in the thread I do have a not so nice score against it (especially in blitz and rapid).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2885
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #78 - 09/25/17 at 21:30:44
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/25/17 at 13:51:13:
In this line I'd suggest 18.Bxh5 Rh8!? (instead of 18...Qh4). My own main line would be something like 18.a5 Nd5 19.Bxh5 Rh8 20.Qe2 0-0-0 21.Ng2 Qd7 22.Bg5 Re8 23.c4 Nb4 24.a6 followed by 25.d5. However the results remain foggy. Black's pieces are placed in the center - in particular the future Nd3 -, and White has fewer and fewer pawns. The edge claimed by the engine may be meaningless.

The whole h5 idea looks fine to me. Surely for "OTB" chess. Maybe for correspondence chess not so much. An open position and many tactical possibilities means that White can probably "surf" to a draw if he wants. 


Interesting line. I hadnt thought of putting the Queen on d7. 18...Rh8 is certainly a sensible re-organization.

Black seems to get interesting play for the pawn.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1381
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #77 - 09/25/17 at 13:51:13
Post Tools
HgMan wrote on 09/24/17 at 16:11:04:
Keano wrote on 09/24/17 at 15:06:07:
6.c3 h5 7.Bc4 Nd7 8.Qb3 e6 9.Nf3 Nb6 10.Be2 Rg8
11.O-O e5 12.a4 e4 13.Ne1 f5 14.f3 Be6
15.Qc2 Qh4 16.fxe4 fxe4 17.g3 Qe7

Now how does White continue?

a) 18.Qxe4 h4 with initiative
b) 18.Bxh5 Qh4!? looks very unpleasant to defend for White. The engine is coming up with some very un-natural defences and even there Black has his counterplay. [...]


Nice work! 18.Bxh5 Qh4!? 19.a5 Nd5 20.Qe2 Bd6 21.Ng2 still poses Black some difficulties, though. I like how Black is mounting a strong attack. But White seems to have resources.

In this line I'd suggest 18.Bxh5 Rh8!? (instead of 18...Qh4). My own main line would be something like 18.a5 Nd5 19.Bxh5 Rh8 20.Qe2 0-0-0 21.Ng2 Qd7 22.Bg5 Re8 23.c4 Nb4 24.a6 followed by 25.d5. However the results remain foggy. Black's pieces are placed in the center - in particular the future Nd3 -, and White has fewer and fewer pawns. The edge claimed by the engine may be meaningless.

The whole h5 idea looks fine to me. Surely for "OTB" chess. Maybe for correspondence chess not so much. An open position and many tactical possibilities means that White can probably "surf" to a draw if he wants.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2323
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #76 - 09/24/17 at 16:11:04
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 09/24/17 at 15:06:07:
6.c3 h5 7.Bc4 Nd7 8.Qb3 e6 9.Nf3 Nb6 10.Be2 Rg8
11.O-O e5 12.a4 e4 13.Ne1 f5 14.f3 Be6
15.Qc2 Qh4 16.fxe4 fxe4 17.g3 Qe7

Now how does White continue?

a) 18.Qxe4 h4 with initiative
b) 18.Bxh5 Qh4!? looks very unpleasant to defend for White. The engine is coming up with some very un-natural defences and even there Black has his counterplay.

I was looking at 17...Qh3 also but surprisingly 18.Ng2 seems to jam things up.

The engine does seem a pesky defender though. For correspondence maybe 15...Qd5 is safer. 16.a5 Nc8 17.a6 b5.

What is this mess?


Nice work! 18.Bxh5 Qh4!? 19.a5 Nd5 20.Qe2 Bd6 21.Ng2 still poses Black some difficulties, though. I like how Black is mounting a strong attack. But White seems to have resources.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2323
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #75 - 09/24/17 at 16:03:42
Post Tools
HgMan wrote on 09/24/17 at 02:56:55:
For the sake of clarity, this building off the following line: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nf6+ gxf6 6.c3 h5!? 7.Bc4 Nd7 8.Qb3 e6 9.Nf3 Nd7 10.Be2 Rg8 11.0-0 e5 12.a4! e4


Oops. Confusing in the name of clarity. The line above should read 9...Nb6. I am ashamed.  Undecided
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2885
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #74 - 09/24/17 at 15:06:07
Post Tools
6.c3 h5 7.Bc4 Nd7 8.Qb3 e6 9.Nf3 Nb6 10.Be2 Rg8
11.O-O e5 12.a4 e4 13.Ne1 f5 14.f3 Be6
15.Qc2 Qh4 16.fxe4 fxe4 17.g3 Qe7

Now how does White continue?

a) 18.Qxe4 h4 with initiative
b) 18.Bxh5 Qh4!? looks very unpleasant to defend for White. The engine is coming up with some very un-natural defences and even there Black has his counterplay.

I was looking at 17...Qh3 also but surprisingly 18.Ng2 seems to jam things up.

The engine does seem a pesky defender though. For correspondence maybe 15...Qd5 is safer. 16.a5 Nc8 17.a6 b5.

What is this mess?

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2323
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #73 - 09/24/17 at 02:56:55
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/23/17 at 21:27:20:
(d) 12....e4 13.Ne1 Be6 14.Qc2 f5 could be relatively best. 15.f3 Qd5 16.a5 Nc8 is a possible continuation. In my opinion rather +/- than +=.


This does look troublesome (though I'm not overly committed to 6...h5). I think the main problem in all these variations is Black's lack of development. It's simply not possible to develop any counterplay.

Is 13...Bd6 an option, instead of the fairly obvious 13...Be6 ? 14.c4 Bc7 15.a5 Nd7 16.f4 f5 17.a6 bxa6 18.Qh3 Nf8 19.Nc2 Rb8 20.b4 h4 Maybe Black gives the pawn back with ...a5. This looks unappealing, but not horrible.

I wondered if 15...Qh4 was an improvement, but not really. 16.fxe4 fxe4 17.g3 Qh3

For the sake of clarity, this building off the following line: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nf6+ gxf6 6.c3 h5!? 7.Bc4 Nd7 8.Qb3 e6 9.Nf3 Nd7 10.Be2 Rg8 11.0-0 e5 12.a4! e4
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2885
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #72 - 09/24/17 at 01:35:24
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/23/17 at 21:27:20:
(d) 12....e4 13.Ne1 Be6 14.Qc2 f5 could be relatively best. 15.f3 Qd5 16.a5 Nc8 is a possible continuation. In my opinion rather +/- than +=.


In this line maybe 15...Qh4!? I think its more important to go all out attack mode - leave the d5 square for the b6 Knight and even give up e4 pawn if required.

I think this could work well in a practical game but perhaps is not 100% sound for Black.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1381
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #71 - 09/23/17 at 21:27:20
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 09/22/17 at 21:32:52:
HgMan wrote on 09/22/17 at 19:01:05:
I still find this a bit terrifying. After 12.dxe5 fxe5 13.Nxe5 Qf6, Black's king looks pretty exposed and their are too many pieces on the back rank. I'm amazed that the following variations don't leave Black getting absolutely steamrolled within the next 10 moves, but you're right about the active play. Black sort of springs into action after, for example, 14.f4 Bc5+ 15.Kh1 Be6 and things don't look so bad.

I also thought stuffing in a 9...h4 or something to that effect. Which does nothing for my concerns about Black's earlier development, but seems thematic nevertheless.


9...h4 might be an idea also but I prefer to just kick on with 9...Nb6 10.Be2 Rg8 11.0-0 e5!?

I see what you mean about being terrifying but on closer inspection all Blacks pieces are coming out with tempo and (most importantly) his king will be safe. I like the practical aspect of that line.

edit: hmm it is not so clear now to me, I have discovered some tries for White.

So.... at this moment I like best the line suggested by @ Stefan Buecker

Even though I think the 6...h5 line also must be in good shape. After all in the last few years it has been played successfully by Short, Seirawan, etc.

The position after 12.dxe5 fxe5 is surprisingly good for Black. I tried to refute it, but without much success. Black's pieces are very active, and in one attempt that looked good at first White finally was checkmate. If the move 12.dxe5 was forced, your creative solution would probably be stronger than all our other attempts against Ne2-g3 &h4.

However, it seems to me that the critical move is 12.a4!.
Black can then try:

(a) 12...a5 13.Re1 and Black's prospects to develop and find some shelter for his king look dim.

(b) 12...Bh3 13.Ng5

(c) 12...Be6 13.Qc2 Bh3 14.g3 Bxf1 15.Bxf1 followed by a5-a6. Black has won the exchange, yet it's very difficult to play.

(d) 12....e4 13.Ne1 Be6 14.Qc2 f5 could be relatively best. 15.f3 Qd5 16.a5 Nc8 is a possible continuation. In my opinion rather +/- than +=.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1381
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #70 - 09/23/17 at 21:10:57
Post Tools
HgMan wrote on 09/22/17 at 19:31:33:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/20/17 at 16:51:55:
HgMan wrote on 09/18/17 at 02:08:43:
One potential line (which starts to look a little hairy):

6.c3 Bf5 7.Ne2 Nd7 8.Ng3 Bg6 9.h4 h5 10.Be2 Qa5 11.a4 O‑O‑O 12.b4 Qc7 13.O‑O e5 14.b5 Nc5 15.Bc4 f5 16.Bg5 Be7 17.Bxe7 Qxe7 18.bxc6 f4

...and then I have no idea what's going on.

Very interesting discussion. In the line above, White can also try 18.Qf3 f4 19.dxc5 fxg3 20.Qxg3 Qxc5 21.Be2. This could be a long ending, with Black's king a little more exposed than White's. For example 21...Rhg8 22.Rfd1 Rde8 23.Qh3+ Kb8 24.Qf3. The computer shows something like +1.00, eventually winning a pawn further down the road. 


I appreciate this thought. But I wonder if the other rook to g8 at move 21 makes a tangible difference? 21...Rdg8 22.Qf3 f5 (I think my favourite part about playing the Bronstein-Larsen is being able to lash out with ...f5 twice in one game!). But maybe Black still has a tricky endgame after 23.Rfd1 f4 24.bxc6

Another option is 23.Rfb1 (also 23.a5 f4 24.a6) 23...Rh7 24.Rb4 Rc7 25.Bc4 Rd8 26.Be6+ Kb8 27.Qg3. - These endings are unpleasant to defend, sometimes with a pawn behind. Perhaps still a draw, but nothing that you would hope to play.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo