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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 11711 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #33 - 05/12/22 at 09:55:30
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After 5.f4 d5 6.e5 Ng4 7.Bd2 h5 8.h3 Nh6 9.Nf3, 9...Bf5 is thematic. Blow me down, my SF15 now goes 10.Be3!! It turns out that after 10 ..e6 now, the position is the same as the standard (reasonably well-regarded) Gurgenidze line 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 c6 4.f4 d5 5.e5 h5 6.Be3 Bf5 7.Nf3 e6 8.h3 Nd7, except that Black has Nh6 in iso Nd7. I guess this slightly favours White, as shown in the variation 11.Be2 Nd7 12.Qd2 a6 (12 ...c5 immediately is worth a look?) 13.g4! hg 14.hg Bg4 15.f5 -- but perhaps Black is still OK here.

The old toad 'work' will probably stop me exploring further in the next week or so, but the Gurgenidze tries do look plausible. The 6.Be3 c6 Austrian is frowned on by theory I believe, but I don't know why, or whether that verdict has been/should be revised. I must admit, my own preference is for the KID-style Pirc over the blockading systems, but of course sometimes you have to be flexible.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #32 - 05/12/22 at 08:45:57
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The only think with 7.. Nf6 is that the knight does get into g7 which I guess is a bit different & white gets very slightly disorganised by covering g3 (not seriously.).

So its slightly different to 'standard', and amusing, but possibly a bit indulgent.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #31 - 05/11/22 at 11:16:50
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 05/11/22 at 07:33:31:
At the risk of making a clot of myself again though, I don't understand why no one has played 5 ..d5 6.e5 Ng4 7.Bd2 h5. Perhaps this shouldn't compare too badly with a standard Gurgenidze since Black doesn't seem to be losing any time, unless White can leave the Bishop on d2 and try some sort of b2-b4 restraining idea.

Well. It does more or less become a standard Gurgenidze, so if one likes that kind of thing it can definitely be considered as well. Black takes three moves to go Nf6-g4-h6. Normally that can be done in one. White will take three moves if he goes Be3-Bc1 (it does get threatened by Ng4) and then Be3 again. Usually also done in one move. It looks funny to just go back to e3 once the g4 knight moves away; however simply assuming e3 is the best square for the bishop is not so preposterous.

From this order white can indeed put the bishp on d2 and maybe aim for... I don't really know. Something like below:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 d5 6.e5 Ng4 7.Bd2 h5 8.h3 Nh6 9.Nf3 Nf5!?
(9...Bf5 is also interesting)
10.Bd3 e6 11.O-O a5 12.Ne2 h4 13.b3 b6 14.c4 Be7
With the bishop looking relatively sensically placed on d2. Such a small point is not going to revolutionise much though. Most black players, I think at least, would still play this even if this way of playing for white exists.

Edit: maybe you can risk 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 Ng4 6.Bc1 d5 7.h3 Nh6!? if not liking this Bd2 idea in the other line. 7...Nf6 also looks playable but then the knight likely has to jump around a bit more than it would like after 8.e5.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #30 - 05/11/22 at 07:33:31
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Apologies! I feel ashamed of my silly late-night suggestion. I'll take a look at your analysis, but even after the line I mentioned, White just goes 11.0-0 and it seems doubtful Black can survive the imminent c2-c4, which I stupidly underestimated.

I also looked briefly at 6.Nf3 Bg4, but presumably this is a pseudo-Gurgenidze that must be at least a bit better for White. Ditto 6 ...Bg7.

At the risk of making a clot of myself again though, I don't understand why no one has played 5 ..d5 6.e5 Ng4 7.Bd2 h5. Perhaps this shouldn't compare too badly with a standard Gurgenidze since Black doesn't seem to be losing any time, unless White can leave the Bishop on d2 and try some sort of b2-b4 restraining idea.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #29 - 05/11/22 at 02:06:35
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Hi.

Maybe:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 Qb6 6.Nf3 Qxb2 7.Bd2 Qb6
This strikes me as natural and at brief glance given as best by the computer; however there is nothing totally preventing black from allowing Rb1 and evacuating via a3. It just seems more circuitous. Anyway:
8.e5 Nd5
Could be imprecise but instead of giving ?! I would probably give the alternative a ! in that case. Only that could in turn be dubious. Hard to tell though, it doesn't seem very natural but seems to work out somewhat ok with precise play
8...Nh5!?/?!/! 9.Bd3 d5 10.f5!?
Nothing else makes any immediate impact. White can play the position more slowly if he wants and still be ok, maybe even press, I guess. This hits a bit harder but probably black can survive with precise defence.
10...Bxf5 11.Bxf5 gxf5 12.e6 fxe6 13.Na4 Qc7 14.Nc5 Na6! 15.Nxe6 Qc8! 16.Qe2 Nc7 17.Nfg5 Ng7 18.Nxf8 Rxf8 19.O-O Qd7 20.Rae1 O-O-O 21.Nxh7!? Rh8 22.Ng5(D) With sufficient compensation for a pawn and a fairly pleasant position for white but maybe not much more.

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9.Ne4!
White's idea is simply c4 (black knight moves), c5 (black queen moves) and cxd6 with a favorable opening of the position.
9...Qd8!?
9...Bf5 10.Ng3 dxe5 11.Rb1 Qc7 12.fxe5 e6 13.Nxf5 gxf5 14.c4 Ne7 15.Bd3 Black's structure is sort of not as strong now and white probably has quite good compensation.
9...dxe5 10.fxe5 Bg4 11.c4 Nc7 12.c5 Qb2 13.Bc4 Bxf3 14.Bxf7+ Kxf7 15.Qxf3+ Ke8 16.O-O Computers like this for white despite being a piece down.
10.Bd3 Bf5 11.Qe2
There are various continuations here. In most I think black starts looking a bit less solid than before but maybe there is something that works out ok.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #28 - 05/10/22 at 22:29:21
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Quote:
The way forward for black is probably
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 Qb6!?
or the Morihama middlegame but via
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 Bg7 6.Nf3 0-0 7.h3 Nbd7

Now I'm favouring 5 ...Qb6 6.Nf3 Qb2 7.Bd2 Qb6, asking White what his QB is doing on d2 and preparing to go into a huddle and blockade with ...d5 (e.g. 8.Bd3 d5 9.Rb1 Qc7 10.e5 Nh5). So far I have faith in this Steinitzian stodge-up! 
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #27 - 05/10/22 at 17:45:05
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 05/10/22 at 13:23:36:
Still, if White goes 5 f4 first, then after 5 ...Bg7 6 Nf3 0-0 7 h3 Nbd7 (obviously White's 6th and 7th can be played in the reverse order) this is a Pirc Austrian with 5 ...0-0 6 Be3 c6, and thus an 'admission' that 5 f4, far from being almost too bad to mention, as many books suggest, is actually as good a try for advantage as any -- which may, of course, be the case! I'm not up on the theory of the 6 ...c6 Austrian; it looks like 7 Bd3 allows 7 ...Nbd7 in better circumstances for Black than 7 h3, but I believe 7 Qd2 b5 used to be thought (a bit) better for White -- is this still the case?

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be3 c6 7.Bd3 Nbd7 does look like nothing special for white. If 8.Qd2 e5 and it's not obvious white has set up so threateningly. If 8.h3 c5 9.d5 there is 9...b5! 10.Nxb5 c4! 11.Bxc4 Nxe4 with some mess. Obviously if the f6 knight is off on g4 there is no knight on f6 to take on e4; which kinda explains why having the knight on g4 may somewhat hamper black's c6-c5 idea.

Compare to:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 Ng4 6.Bc1 Bg7 7.Nf3
7.h3 Nd7 8.Bd3 also works without being afraid of 8...c5 9.d5 b5 in a few ways but easiest seems 10.Bxb5! Nxe4?? 11.Bxd7+ Bxd4 12.Nxe4. Notice how if white has Be3 and black having castled this would not work due to 11...Nxc3, where black would be the last one to swap away his tactically exposed piece. Instead it's white.
7...Nd7 8.Bd3 c5 9.d5
(+=) Since there are no b5 tactics it just looks like white is better.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be3 c6 7.Qd2 b5 looks messy with black having some counter chances by going Bb7 and a5+b4. Maybe there is something with deep analysis but I wouldn't care to play it as white unless alternatives were lacking. Not really the case though.

The way forward for black is probably
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 Qb6!?
or the Morihama middlegame but via
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 Bg7 6.Nf3 0-0 7.h3 Nbd7

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #26 - 05/10/22 at 13:23:36
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Very interesting as ever, C_b_T! I can see that the positions Morihama gets are a nice mix of solid (by Pirc standards!) and combative, and that it might be quite easy for White to assume he has more edge than is the case.

Still, if White goes 5 f4 first, then after 5 ...Bg7 6 Nf3 0-0 7 h3 Nbd7 (obviously White's 6th and 7th can be played in the reverse order) this is a Pirc Austrian with 5 ...0-0 6 Be3 c6, and thus an 'admission' that 5 f4, far from being almost too bad to mention, as many books suggest, is actually as good a try for advantage as any -- which may, of course, be the case! I'm not up on the theory of the 6 ...c6 Austrian; it looks like 7 Bd3 allows 7 ...Nbd7 in better circumstances for Black than 7 h3, but I believe 7 Qd2 b5 used to be thought (a bit) better for White -- is this still the case?

Going back to the 5 f4 Qb6 line: after 6 Nf3!? d5 7 e5 Qb2 8 Na4 Qa3 9 c3 b5 10 Nc5, it seems to me 10 ...Ne4 is a possible improvement, e.g. 11 Ne4 de 12 Nd2 (12 Ng5!?) Nbd7!? (maybe better than 12 ...Qc3 13 Kf2) 13 Kf2 (13 Ne4!? f5 also surely needs looking at) Nb6 14 Qb3 Qa5 (14 ...Qa4!?; 14 ...Qb3!?) 15 Ne4 Be6. I'm not claiming anything, but compared with what follows the other Knight hops on move ten it seems Black gets a more human-seeming position where his pieces -- some of them at least -- have a bit more scope.

  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #25 - 05/09/22 at 18:00:26
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Here we go:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4
6.Nf3 O-O 7.Qd2 b5 8.Bd3 Nbd7 9.O-O Qc7 10.Ne2 a5 11.Ng3 c5 12.c3 Ba6 13.Bh6 b4 14.Bxa6 Rxa6 15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.Qg5 bxc3 17.bxc3 e6 18.e5 Ng8 19.Ne4 cxd4 20.cxd4 dxe5 21.dxe5 h6 22.Qd2 Ne7 23.Rac1 Rc6 24.Rcd1 Nxe5 25.Qb2 f6 26.Nxe5 fxe5 27.Rc1 Rf4 28.Rxc6 Nxc6 29.f3 Nd4 30.Kh1 Rf7 31.Rc1 Qb7 32.Qc3 Qb4 33.Qd3 Qb2 34.Qc4 Qb4 1/2-1/2 (34) Koen,B (2205)-Morihama,N (2296) ICCF 2021
6...O-O 7.Nf3 Nbd7 8.e5 Nd5 9.Nxd5 cxd5 10.Bd3
10.Qd2 Nb6 11.b3 Bf5 12.Bd3 Bxd3 13.Qxd3 Rc8 14.O-O
14.O-O-O Rc6 15.Bd2 Nd7 16.Kb1 Qb6 17.h4 Rfc8 18.c3 dxe5 19.fxe5 a5 20.h5 a4 21.hxg6 hxg6 22.b4 Qa6 23.Qe3 f6 24.Ka1 Re6 25.Rdf1 1/2-1/2 (25) Villeneuve,R (2304)-Morihama,N (2312) ICCF 2021
14...dxe5 15.fxe5 Qc7 16.Rac1 f6 17.Kh1 Qc6 18.Rfe1 Nd7 19.c4 Qa6 20.Red1 Rc7 21.Bg1 Bh6 22.Rc3 dxc4 23.bxc4 Rfc8 24.exf6 exf6 25.Qe4 f5 26.Qd5+ Kh8 27.c5 1/2-1/2 (27) Caron,S (2380)-Morihama,N (2328) ICCF 2022
10...Qb6 11.Qd2
11.Qc1 dxe5 12.dxe5 Qc7
12...Nc5 13.O-O Qa5 14.Qd1 Nxd3 15.cxd3 Bf5 16.a4 f6 17.Bd4 Rac8 18.g4 Bd7 19.Qe2 fxe5 20.Nxe5 Qb4 21.Qe3 a5 22.Rf2 Bxa4 23.f5 Bb5 24.Raf1 Qd6 25.Re2 Qc7 26.Ree1 Qd6 27.h4 Rc2 28.Rf3 e6 29.fxg6 hxg6 30.Rxf8+ Qxf8 31.Nxg6 Bxd4 32.Qxd4 Qc5 33.Qxc5 Rxc5 34.Ne5 Rc2 35.h5 Rxb2 36.h6 d4 37.g5 Be8 38.g6 1/2-1/2 (38) Tobler,P (2317)-Morihama,N (2301) ICCF 2021
13.Bd4
13.Qd2 Nc5 14.O-O b6
14...Bd7 15.Rfd1
15.Rad1 b6 16.Bd4 Rac8 17.Qe3 Bh6 18.Kh2 Qc6 19.Bc3
19.Rf2 Qa4 20.b3 Qa5 21.Nh4 Ne6 22.Ba1 Nc5 23.Bb2 b5 24.Qg3 e6 25.a3 b4 26.a4 Qc7 27.Qe3 Ne4 28.Bxe4 dxe4 29.Qxe4 a5 30.Rdd2 Rfd8 31.Bd4 Bc6 32.Qe3 Qb8 33.Nf3 Bxf3 34.Rxf3 Bf8 35.Qf2 Be7 36.Rfd3 Qa8 37.Qe3 Qb7 38.Qe2 h5 39.Qf2 Qc6 40.Qe2 Kh7 41.Qf2 Kg7 42.Qe1 Qa8 1/2-1/2 (42) Sinsuat,D (2304)-Morihama,N (2296) ICCF 2021
19...f6 20.Nd4 Qc7 21.e6 Be8 22.g4 Na4 23.h4 Kh8 24.h5 g5 25.Bb4 gxf4 26.Qf3 Nc5 27.Nf5 Bg5 28.Bxc5 bxc5 29.Qxd5 Rd8 30.Qc4 Rb8 31.Qc3 f3+ 32.Kh3 Rb4 33.Bc4 Bc6 34.a3 Rbb8 35.Bb3 Qe5 36.Rfe1 Qf4 37.Qc4 Rfe8 38.Qxf4 Bxf4 39.Rf1 Rb6 40.h6 Kg8 41.a4 Kf8 42.Bd5 Bxd5 43.Rxd5 Rxe6 44.Rxf3 Re5 45.Rd7 Re4 46.Rxa7 Rd8 47.a5 Rd2 48.Ng3 Rc4 49.Nf1 Rdxc2 1/2-1/2 (49) Deakin,C (2397)-Morihama,N (2296) ICCF 2021
15...Rad8 16.Be2 Be6 17.a4 f6 18.Qc3 Rc8 19.a5 a6 20.Ra3 fxe5 21.fxe5 Bf7 22.Re1 Ne6 23.Qxc7 Rxc7 24.c3 Nc5 25.h4 e6 26.Bd4 Bh6 27.Nh2 Ne4 28.Ng4 Bd2 29.Rd1 h5 30.Nf6+ Nxf6 31.Rxd2 Ne4 32.Rd1 Be8 33.c4 Rc8 34.Bb6 Bc6 35.Rh3 Rf5 36.Bd3 dxc4 37.Bxc4 Bd5 38.Rxd5 Rxc4 39.Rd8+ Kg7 40.Rhd3 g5 41.R3d7+ Rf7 42.hxg5 Nxg5 43.Be3 Rg4 44.Kh2 Rh4+ 1/2-1/2 (44) Mesquita Jr.,F (2370) -Morihama,N (2301) ICCF 2021
15.Rac1 a5 16.Kh2 Bd7 17.a3 Rac8 18.Be2 Rfd8 19.Qe1 a4 20.Rd1 Bf5 21.Nd4 Bd7 22.c3 f6 23.exf6 Bxf6 24.Kg1 Rf8 25.Nf3 Qd6 26.Qd2 e6 27.Qe1 Bg7 28.g3 Nb3 0-1 (28) Thomas,J (2401)-Morihama,N (2312) ICCF 2021
13...b6 14.Qe3 Nc5 15.O-O Ba6 16.Bxa6 Nxa6 17.c3 Nc5 18.Rad1 Qc6 19.h4 Rad8 20.Ne1 Qc8 21.Nc2 Ne4 22.Nb4 e6 23.Nd3 h5 24.Nf2 Nxf2 25.Rxf2 Kh7 26.a4 Qc6 27.Ra1 f6 28.exf6 Bxf6 29.Bxf6 Rxf6 30.g3 Qc5 31.Qxc5 bxc5 32.b4 cxb4 33.cxb4 Rf7 34.Rc1 Kg7 35.Rc6 d4 36.Rxe6 1/2-1/2 (36) Barclay,A (2375)-Morihama,N (2312) ICCF 2021
11...dxe5 12.fxe5 f6 13.O-O-O fxe5 14.dxe5 Qc7 15.Bb5 e6 16.Bxd7 Bxd7 17.Kb1
17.Bh6 Bxh6 18.Qxh6 Rac8 19.c3 Rf5 20.h4 Qc5 21.Kb1 Qf8 22.Qe3 Rf4 23.Nd4 Qf7 24.a3 Rf8 25.Ka2 a5 26.Nf3 Ba4 27.Rc1 Qc7 28.h5 Be8 29.h6 Rg4 30.Rhg1 Bb5 31.Nd2 Qc6 32.Kb1 a4 33.Ka1 Ba6 34.g3 Qd7 35.Qa7 Bd3 36.Rg2 Qb5 37.Rf2 Bf5 1/2-1/2 (37) Traut,G (2167)-Morihama,N (2312) ICCF 2021
17...Rac8 18.Rhe1
18.Bd4 Be8 19.Bc3
19.h4 a5 20.Ng5 Bd7 21.Rde1 a4 22.Rh3 Bh6 23.b4 axb3 24.cxb3 Qd8 25.Rd1 Bg7 26.Rc3 Rxc3 27.Bxc3 h6 28.Nf3 Rf5 29.Bb2 Bc6 30.Nd4 Qxh4 31.Qc2 Kf7 32.Nxf5 gxf5 33.Bd4 1/2-1/2 (33) Droin,A-Morihama,N (2312) ICCF 2021
19...Rf5 20.Rhe1 Qd7 21.Re2 g5 22.Nd4 Rf4 23.g3 Re4 24.Qxg5 h6 25.Qd2 Bg6 26.g4 Kh7 27.Rxe4 Bxe4 28.Qf4 b5 29.g5 b4 30.Bxb4 Qa4 31.g6+ Bxg6 32.Rg1 Bxc2+ 33.Ka1 Qe8 34.Qg3 Qg6 35.Qxg6+ Bxg6 36.Nxe6 Rc6 37.Nxg7 Kxg7 38.Bc3 Kh7 39.Bd4 a6 40.b3 Rc2 41.Rf1 Re2 1/2-1/2 (41) Nenneman,D (2367)-Morihama,N (2296) ICCF 2021
18...a5 19.Bd4 Be8 20.Bc3 Ra8 21.Bd4
21.Nd4 Ra6 22.a3 b5 23.b3 b4 24.Bb2 a4 25.Qxb4 Rf2 26.Rd3 axb3 27.Rxb3 Bf8 28.Qb7 Bxa3 29.Qxc7 1-0 (29) Barclay,A (2372)-Morihama,N (2301) ICCF 2021
21...Rc8 22.Rc1 Qc4 23.h4 a4 24.a3 h5 25.Qe3 Bb5 26.Qd2 Bc6 27.Qe3 Rf5 28.Rcd1 Rcf8 29.Qg1 Rf4 30.Be3 Rg4 31.Rd4 Rxd4 32.Bxd4 Bh6 33.Rf1 Rf7 34.Rd1 Qe2 35.Re1 Qc4 36.Qf2 Rf5 37.Rd1
1/2-1/2 (37) Nenneman,D (2378)-Morihama,N (2312) ICCF 2021
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #24 - 05/09/22 at 16:34:16
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Hi.

If anyone wanna play some test game in some line I almost certainly am up by the way. White, black or one with each colour. I would say take any amount of time for a move but I would consider game abandoned if no move for two weeks without prior notice. Also it is nice if we can do progress reports on chesspub.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #23 - 05/09/22 at 15:36:10
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 05/08/22 at 10:19:31:
•      The elite seem to meet 5 f3 with 5 …b5 or 5 …Nbd7, reaching main-line positions. Is either of these moves better than the other? And is 5 …Qb6 a thing, or bad?

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.f3 is not played so much anymore in correspondence at least; which may be a result of modern computers giving white a smaller positive value there compared to 5.h3.
Personally, I think 5...b5 looks most natural. Positions are very non-forcing though, so determining best play is hard.
I liked the following game from black (who I've seen on chesspub). It looked like black didn't have any major problems at all.

[Event "RUS/25Y/Silver (RUS)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2018.03.20"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Firnhaber, Ingo"]
[Black "Williamson, Harvey D."]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B07"]
[WhiteElo "2480"]
[BlackElo "2529"]
[PlyCount "87"]
[EventDate "2018.??.??"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f3 c6 5. Be3 b5 6. Qd2 Bg7 7. O-O-O Nbd7 8. Kb1
Nb6 9. Bh6 Bxh6 10. Qxh6 a5 11. Rd2 b4 12. Nd1 a4 13. c3 b3 14. a3 Qc7 15. Ne3
Bb7 16. Nh3 O-O-O 17. Be2 Kb8 18. Rhd1 e6 19. Ng5 Rhe8 20. Nh3 e5 21. dxe5 dxe5
22. Nc4 Rxd2 23. Qxd2 Nc8 24. Nf2 Ba6 25. Ne3 Bxe2 26. Qxe2 Re6 27. Nd3 Qb6 28.
Nb4 Nd6 29. c4 Nd7 30. Qd2 Nc5 31. Ng4 Kc8 32. Nxe5 Ndxe4 33. Qd4 Rd6 34. Nd5
cxd5 35. fxe4 f6 36. Nf3 Nxe4 37. cxd5 Qxd4 38. Rxd4 f5 39. Rxa4 Rxd5 40. Nd4
Nd2+ 41. Kc1 Nf1 42. Nxb3 Ne3 43. Rd4 Rb5 44. Nd2 1/2-1/2

Michael Ayton wrote on 05/08/22 at 10:19:31:
is 5 …Qb6 a thing, or bad?

5...Qb6 looks playable. Likely it's just going to force 6.Qc1 or even 6.b3!? and then at some point black will likely reposition his queen to c7 and white to d2. I guess there could be some nuances though. As for making some other line of play work where the position of the queen on b6 sort of helps. Maybe.

Michael Ayton wrote on 05/08/22 at 10:19:31:
More importantly, what on 5 f4? Moskalenko implies 5 …Bg7 6 Nf3 0-0 is the way to go, but this is a Modern with 4 f4 Nf6 5 Nf3 0-0 6 Be3 c6, whereas 6 …b6 is generally now thought best – is 6 …c6 (still) OK? And what of other fifth moves? I believe I’ve seen 5 …Ng4 recommended, but it looks odd to me. 5 …b5 seems more mainstream, but what does theory say (if anything) after 6 a3 (best?) Bg7 or 6 Bd3 e5? Meanwhile my strongest engine gives 5 …Qb6, but White seems to have (at least?) adequate comp. after 6 Nf3 Qb2 7 Bd2, or 6 …d5 7 e5 Qb2 8 Na4.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 Ng4!? 6.Bc1 Bg7
(6...d5 may certainly be better as suggested in later post)
7.h3 Nf6
Doesn't really go back into the Be3 Austrian vs c6 setup looking lines (terminology is hard people!). At least not automatically. White can go
8.Bd3!?
And probably benefit. I mean in general getting the other bishop to e3 is nice but also not really that enormously strengthening on the position. So giving white the option to have some more real Austrian without Be3 is why I would think pushing the bishop back to c1 is perhaps not the best.


Maybe you don't really have to go for alternative stuff though.
There is this correspondence player who has spent the last year basically holding like a dozen games in the line:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 O-O 7.Nf3 Nbd7
I think losing one and winning one as well though. I've gone through the games briefly at one point. I can post them later. Need to go now.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #22 - 05/09/22 at 13:56:31
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Thanks again. Insane lines indeed, but they make sense, and thus far 5 ...Qb6 6.Nf3 doesn't look like a lot of fun for Black!

Could 5.f4 have been ... underestimated? Who knows, maybe Black should just try 5 ...b5 anyway, as played by Mamedyarov, and hope there's a setup where White's h3/a3 costs him too much time for him to obtain a serious edge?!
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #21 - 05/09/22 at 11:01:11
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My computers all 'like' 6.. d5 there too Smiley Truly insane computer nonsense of course - 7 e5 Qxb2 8 Na4 Qa3 9 c3 b5 10 Nc5 Nfd7 (or Ng4) 11 Nb3 defending the c3 pawn. How obvious?!

I wouldn't especially fancy black's position at the end very much but well placed if you don't get squashed on the kingside Smiley

Seemingly multiple decent different ways for white to sacrifice the pawn of course. SF14 seems to prefer 6 a4!?, on the apparent grounds that 6 .. Qxb2 7 Bd2 forces Qb6 or Bg4 ^ Qb6 lest Rb1 - Rb3 traps the black Q.

Or 6 e5!? which at least makes structural sense!

The most amusing version of the Gurgenuidze I can get them to contemplate is 5 .. Ng4 6 Bc1 d5!? 7 h3 Nf6 8 e5 Nh5 (eyeing Ng3) 9 Qf3 Ng7 ^ 10 Qf2 h5 . Deeply amusing Smiley Can't tell which one is better!

SF14 likes white, Leela does but only mildly so (~60%). Mind you sometimes I can get Leela to dream of things that make you think it was programmed by Surtees Smiley cf:

10.. h5 (as above) 11 Nf3 e6 12 g3 a5!? 13 Bd2 b5!? 14 Rg1 Nd7 15 g4 Nb6 16 Bd3 b4 17 Ne2 Nc4 etc.

That's probably taking it a little bit far Smiley
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #20 - 05/09/22 at 08:53:47
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Thanks, MartinC! (Plus, your engine is deffo stronger than mine!)

I'd be v. interested to know what you/Leela think might be best play/plans after 5 ...Qb6 6.Nf3!?. Should Black snaffle on b2 immediately or go 6 ...d5 (first)? There might be some subtleties/over-engine-horizon factors here ... (My SF15 gives 6 ...d5, but I'm still using my rubber-band-powered computer! Grin)

I also wonder whether 5 ...d5 (N?) is an idea, e.g. 6.e5 (6.Bd3 Ne4 is safe?) Ng4 7.Bd2 h5 with an irregular Gurgenidze. At first glance this maybe looks OK for Black, but perhaps White can get an annoying quick Nf3-g5 in?

  
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Re: Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #19 - 05/09/22 at 08:25:58
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Michael Ayton wrote on 05/08/22 at 20:19:52:
Quote:
If 5.f4 Ng4 doesn't work for Black it's great news for White, because that would been White can save the tempo h3 and play an excellent version of the Austrian Attack. Who plays 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 c6 ? But whre should the bishop go?!

Perhaps I was too quick to disparage 5 …Ng4; after 6.Bc1 (6.Bd2 e5) Black obviously isn’t going to play 6 …Nf6. But Moskalenko doesn’t mention it and I wonder how Black should continue: 6 …Bg7, I suppose. Maybe here and/or after 5 …b5 White can’t do without h2-h3 for ever? But I freely admit I don’t really know what I’m talking about!


Leela and SF14 definitely think black's best is Qb6, holding Ng4 in reserve for a move. I guess black might as well have a pawn for their suffering Smiley

It actually isn't that obvious if white is really saving a tempo by not going h3 earlier - if black just develops, ie 5 .. Bg7 6 Nf3 o-o then SF14 has a distinct preference for white playing 7 h3.

Basically 7 e5 Nd5 8 Nxd5 cxd5 allows Nc6 which helps black organise quite a bit, so it would rather wait a move, take away Ng4 ideas and turn e5 into a very annoying threat.
  
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